กไก

[tgeezer]

Since no one seems interested in anything I say I thought I could try to get people at all levels to discuss the alphabet book. I am old now so don't need my Thai for anything important except for amicable relationships with people I meet who have no English. One thing we have in common is Thai, and I know that they all know this book 'Learning a practising reading ก ไก.' It forms the bases for thought and sentence construction, and if you can read this simple book you will understand a lot about Thai. eg. it starts with 'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' What is the point of เอ๋ย? I think it is to exite interest, when you ask a riddle in Thai you say "อะไรเอ๋ย" followed by the question. If you can say it properly you feel like you are speaking Thai. Any thoughts anyone? What about ออกไปหากิน? forms the basis of so many everyday actions. It means 'goes outside to find food', or does it mean 'finds food outside?' does it mention outside? should it not be ออกไปข้างนอก ? does it matter? You see what I am getting at is some of the questions people ask are more nit picky than language need to be: when I think of something in English turn it into Thai, try it, make a few tone errors, is it any wonder I get 'switched-off'? I will risk one more example if anyone is still reading. ข ไข . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว I suggested to a Thai that 'aroy lin nak chiow' could be an idiom he was adament that it was not, but if a Thai asked me why I ate a certain thing if I replied exactly this, it would do. Does anyone agree he would hear 'tasty and good for you?' surely a useful thing to know and in the simplest of books too. I hope someone is interested. I hope that you don't think I am saying I am correct in my assumptions, it is what I feel and in language we will not all feel the same when we hear something, but usually it doesn't confuse materially. I want us to discuss what it means to each of us at all levels. In a way, you see, we are forming our own language, we use Thai words but not Thai thought and probably never can, but starting at the bottom is one way which some might like to try.

Edited February 10, 2008 by tgeezer

[yoot]

Sorry, I'm not going to discuss about the alphabet. I just want to clarify the meaninf of each word, phrase or sentence from your examples.

'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' - เอ๋ย - onomatopoeia indicating affection, politeness, used after a vocative by a man or woman. Or, using as a starting word in the poem.

"อะไรเอ๋ย" - the correct word is 'เอ่ย' - the word which is used as an interrogative word of a riddle.

ออกไปหากิน - หากิน is one word, means 'to work for a living'. So, the sentence means 'go out to work for a living'

ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว means 'has a very good taste'. ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - egg has protein and has a very good taste.

[tgeezer]

Sorry, I'm not going to discuss about the alphabet. I just want to clarify the meaninf of each word, phrase or sentence from your examples.

'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' - เอ๋ย - onomatopoeia indicating affection, politeness, used after a vocative by a man or woman. Or, using as a starting word in the poem.

"อะไรเอ๋ย" - the correct word is 'เอ่ย' - the word which is used as an interrogative word of a riddle.

ออกไปหากิน - หากิน is one word, means 'to work for a living'. So, the sentence means 'go out to work for a living'

ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว means 'has a very good taste'. ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - egg has protein and has a very good taste.

Very good and thanks; I must say I hadn't noticed the different tones there, however the important thing is that it gets some questions. In the context of a chicken working for a living, they don't actually do any work in that sense, they produce eggs, but then the renumeration is perhaps the freedom to go out and scrape the ground looking for worms. I think that you are missing the point, if in answer to a question of why I ate something I reply with the above, you think it no improvement on 'ชอบ' I suspect that you are an academic, probably a lecturer of language. I take it that you do not agree that the book I am referring to is a good place to start learning Thai. I would say that this little interchange we are having even with my mistakes has been useful to someone on the forum, certainly it has for me and thanks again.

[aanon]

Honestly i have never learnt the alphabet poem, or any alphabet books, but i'll try to respond to a few of your ideas

eg. it starts with 'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' What is the point of เอ๋ย? I think it is to exite interest, when you ask a riddle in Thai you say "อะไรเอ๋ย" followed by the question. If you can say it properly you feel like you are speaking Thai. Any thoughts anyone?

yes, knowing when to add something like เอ๋ย does mean that you have a good grasp of the language - probably not just from books, but also from experience. a similar phrase we might use in english is "oh, little chicken...". it's a way to show that we're starting a poem, or a new section, or a turning to a new point of interest. i guess as english speakers the 'oh' is also available when we just need another syllable too. the word เอย is also used to show that the song/poem has finished. the เอ๋ย also adds a feeling of warmth or affection, as yoot said.

What about ออกไปหากิน? forms the basis of so many everyday actions. It means 'goes outside to find food', or does it mean 'finds food outside?' does it mention outside? should it not be ออกไปข้างนอก ? does it matter?

is this part of an alphabet poem? sorry i honestly don't know. in general usage, ออกไปหากิน would be to 'go out to work' (more literally, go out to make a living). it doesn't explicitly say 'outside', but just like 'go out' in english it's understood that outside is where you go out to.

I will risk one more example if anyone is still reading. ข ไข . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว I suggested to a Thai that 'aroy lin nak chiow' could be an idiom he was adament that it was not, but if a Thai asked me why I ate a certain thing if I replied exactly this, it would do. Does anyone agree he would hear 'tasty and good for you?' surely a useful thing to know and in the simplest of books too.

อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว is a useful thing to understand, to grasp how the นัก and the เชียว emphasise the meaning, but would be a very rare (or even slightly strange) thing to hear a person actually use. yes, the message is 'good for you [specifically because of the protein] and really tasty'.

all the best.

[tgeezer]

Sorry, I'm not going to discuss about the alphabet. I just want to clarify the meaninf of each word, phrase or sentence from your examples.

'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' - เอ๋ย - onomatopoeia indicating affection, politeness, used after a vocative by a man or woman. Or, using as a starting word in the poem.

"อะไรเอ๋ย" - the correct word is 'เอ่ย' - the word which is used as an interrogative word of a riddle.

ออกไปหากิน - หากิน is one word, means 'to work for a living'. So, the sentence means 'go out to work for a living'

ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว means 'has a very good taste'. ข ไข่ . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว - egg has protein and has a very good taste.

Very good and thanks; I must say I hadn't noticed the different tones there, however the important thing is that it gets some questions. In the context of a chicken working for a living, they don't actually do any work in that sense, they produce eggs, but then the renumeration is perhaps the freedom to go out and scrape the ground looking for worms. I think that you are missing the point, if in answer to a question of why I ate something I reply with the above, you think it no improvement on 'ชอบ' I suspect that you are an academic, probably a lecturer of language. I take it that you do not agree that the book I am referring to is a good place to start learning Thai. I would say that this little interchange we are having even with my mistakes has been useful to someone on the forum, certainly it has for me and thanks again.

It gets 'curiouser and curiouser' after my reply to Yoot's helpful comments I raced to the dictionary, I already knew of course the definition of a word in Thai, and apart from the unhelpful feature of the language in not putting a space before and after a word it doesn't differ much from the English. I found หา and หากิน also หาเงิน, also a word and what do you think? we all have dictionaries so take a look, both verb and noun, (there is already a verb in the sentence)but as a noun, well really! not the sort of thing I would want my pre-nursery kid to be thinking about, especially as regards chickens!

[meadish_sweetball]

I think what Yoot meant is that you need to interpret หากิน as one unit which means 'support oneself/make a living', even though the constituent parts หา and กิน can be used in isolation with the basic meanings 'search' and 'eat' as well as in other specific constructions with slightly differing meanings.

Perhaps a better expression than 'word' would be 'fixed phrase' or something along those lines? My linguistic terminology is a little rusty.

[tgeezer]

I think what Yoot meant is that you need to interpret หากิน as one unit which means 'support oneself/make a living', even though the constituent parts หา and กิน can be used in isolation with the basic meanings 'search' and 'eat' as well as in other specific constructions with slightly differing meanings.

Perhaps a better expression than 'word' would be 'fixed phrase' or something along those lines? My linguistic terminology is a little rusty.

Welcome I am glad that you have joined in I have read a lot of your posts and know that you can help. I know I am just trying to get some life into this thread, I am not a troll, I don't speak Thai but I am learning and want to make it as simple as possible. This post which I started has helped me to see things differently. The book is for pre-school kids to whom amimals and people are interchangeable, 'Toad of Toadhall' drove a car for instance. In the example the chicken goes to work, I read it as 'หากิน' หา the verb and กิน the noun 'ของกิน' what work does the chicken do? well he 'คุ้ยเขี่ยตามดิน' finds worms and insects I think it goes after that. My point is, does it matter what I the literal translation is? nothing has changed really, and for a learner, which some posters say they are, and want a starting point is this not one? When you look up คุ้ย for instance you will come across คุย a very useful word. Surely it is better than translating 'I love Doris' for a tatoo. My adage is 'a lesson earned is better than a lesson learned, if it don't come too dear' We shouldn't have any pride we are not required to speak Thai to contribute we know 'nuzzing' we should be learning. I would contribute to Anon's tread about fixed constructions but don't think I know any.

Edited February 10, 2008 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

Honestly i have never learnt the alphabet poem, or any alphabet books, but i'll try to respond to a few of your ideas

eg. it starts with 'ก.เอ๋ย ก.ไก' What is the point of เอ๋ย? I think it is to exite interest, when you ask a riddle in Thai you say "อะไรเอ๋ย" followed by the question. If you can say it properly you feel like you are speaking Thai. Any thoughts anyone?

yes, knowing when to add something like เอ๋ย does mean that you have a good grasp of the language - probably not just from books, but also from experience. a similar phrase we might use in english is "oh, little chicken...". it's a way to show that we're starting a poem, or a new section, or a turning to a new point of interest. i guess as english speakers the 'oh' is also available when we just need another syllable too. the word เอย is also used to show that the song/poem has finished. the เอ๋ย also adds a feeling of warmth or affection, as yoot said.

What about ออกไปหากิน? forms the basis of so many everyday actions. It means 'goes outside to find food', or does it mean 'finds food outside?' does it mention outside? should it not be ออกไปข้างนอก ? does it matter?

is this part of an alphabet poem? sorry i honestly don't know. in general usage, ออกไปหากิน would be to 'go out to work' (more literally, go out to make a living). it doesn't explicitly say 'outside', but just like 'go out' in english it's understood that outside is where you go out to.

I will risk one more example if anyone is still reading. ข ไข . คุณค่าโปรตีน อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว I suggested to a Thai that 'aroy lin nak chiow' could be an idiom he was adament that it was not, but if a Thai asked me why I ate a certain thing if I replied exactly this, it would do. Does anyone agree he would hear 'tasty and good for you?' surely a useful thing to know and in the simplest of books too.

อร่อยลิ้นนักเชียว is a useful thing to understand, to grasp how the นัก and the เชียว emphasise the meaning, but would be a very rare (or even slightly strange) thing to hear a person actually use. yes, the message is 'good for you [specifically because of the protein] and really tasty'.

all the best.

Thanks for this, did you read 'นัก' as 'หนัก' ? I did for a long time and only lately realized that it is meaningless, this is the exciting thing to me; words go in to make it flow. I realize that it would be a strange answer to a question, but surely the Thai to whom you are speaking would know where you got it and that would be a point of cantact, from there you are conversing as they help you out. I had a nice time reciting the ไม้ม้วน ryme ผู้ใหญ่หาผ้าใหม่... the other day with a lady who takes tickets at the pool, in return she recited the English alphabet, it was fun and a small thing but gives the feeling of communicating.

[mangkorn]

tgeezer: nobody thinks of you as a troll. And this is a good examination of words and syntax, the latter being one of the most difficult for farangs to understand. But it is important to free oneself from a closed idea of literal translations of individual words, when they may have many different meanings in context.

In that sense, when you say that Khun Yoot is missing the point, I must disagree. He is hitting the point, on point - explaining a compound word, not two separate words. Many of us may have a tendency to try to translate too narrowly, and we are often wrong. Usage is everything in a language.

Many words have many different meanings in usage, in many languages, including English, or, especially English, I dare say.

The นัก in your example is an adverbial intensifier, quite different from the noun that is spelled the same way. And English contains innumerable homonyms, surely.

Another thing that we need to work to grasp is that in Thai, the use of verbs and nouns are more flexible than they are in English. Sometimes, it's easier to use a verb (without adding the prefix การ) - just because it is shorter. But the meaning is still understood.

Thai also seems to have a lot of missing or understood, words. Consider the strong retort: กวนตีน - if you parse it, you get "bother," and "foot," which cannot mean anything if you look at it in a schematic manner. But, what it actually means that someone "(is causing so much) trouble (that he is asking for) a kick." You simply can't get arrive at that meaning by merely trying to translate the component parts.

These are things we have to learn. If you use an English idiom like "throw out the baby with the bathwater," or, "throw away the key," that must be impenetrable for

a Korean or a Russian or a Thai trying to learn English, no?

But, หากิน is "seek" (to) "eat" - and that clearly means to earn a living.

A common idiom for saying "I'm a poor person" is หาเช้ากินค่ำ - "I go seeking out my sustenance in the morning, but am only able to eat at night."

And I wouldn't try to over-intellectualize nursery rhymes, nor worry whether they are "proper" for your child; they are phonic exercises, which are important in any language, and especially in a tonal language. Apply the same standard to some of the English nursery rhymes, and you may be quite surprised at what you find.

Sometimes you have to accept things the way they are spoken and meant, and not how you might translate them. Translating between Romance languages is pretty straightforward, but Thai is not a Romance language; it shares nothing in common.

Also, Thai phrases may often be structured according to the melody of the whole. One must learn to get in tune with the "music" of the language, not just the words.

But, no worries, your contributions are surely far better than "I love Doris."

Keep 'em coming.

Cheers.

[tgeezer]

tgeezer: nobody thinks of you as a troll. And this is a good examination of words and syntax, the latter being one of the most difficult for farangs to understand. But it is important to free oneself from a closed idea of literal translations of individual words, when they may have many different meanings in context.

In that sense, when you say that Khun Yoot is missing the point, I must disagree. He is hitting the point, on point - explaining a compound word, not two separate words. Many of us may have a tendency to try to translate too narrowly, and we are often wrong. Usage is everything in a language.

Many words have many different meanings in usage, in many languages, including English, or, especially English, I dare say.

The นัก in your example is an adverbial intensifier, quite different from the noun that is spelled the same way. And English contains innumerable homonyms, surely.

Another thing that we need to work to grasp is that in Thai, the use of verbs and nouns are more flexible than they are in English. Sometimes, it's easier to use a verb (without adding the prefix การ) - just because it is shorter. But the meaning is still understood.

Thai also seems to have a lot of missing or understood, words. Consider the strong retort: กวนตีน - if you parse it, you get "bother," and "foot," which cannot mean anything if you look at it in a schematic manner. But, what it actually means that someone "(is causing so much) trouble (that he is asking for) a kick." You simply can't get arrive at that meaning by merely trying to translate the component parts.

These are things we have to learn. If you use an English idiom like "throw out the baby with the bathwater," or, "throw away the key," that must be impenetrable for

a Korean or a Russian or a Thai trying to learn English, no?

But, หากิน is "seek" (to) "eat" - and that clearly means to earn a living.

A common idiom for saying "I'm a poor person" is หาเช้ากินค่ำ - "I go seeking out my sustenance in the morning, but am only able to eat at night."

And I wouldn't try to over-intellectualize nursery rhymes, nor worry whether they are "proper" for your child; they are phonic exercises, which are important in any language, and especially in a tonal language. Apply the same standard to some of the English nursery rhymes, and you may be quite surprised at what you find.

Sometimes you have to accept things the way they are spoken and meant, and not how you might translate them. Translating between Romance languages is pretty straightforward, but Thai is not a Romance language; it shares nothing in common.

Also, Thai phrases may often be structured according to the melody of the whole. One must learn to get in tune with the "music" of the language, not just the words.

But, no worries, your contributions are surely far better than "I love Doris."

Keep 'em coming.

Cheers.

A lot to answer but here goes; by missing the point I mean 'My' point, the reason for the post. I suggested that the ก. ไก book was a good place to start when learning Thai. Look at the other posts, people are asking about schools should they learn the alphabet etc. We are not discussing correct use of Thai but whether this is a suitable book. The erroneous remarks I make in support of my case doesn't alter a thing if anything it improves the situation, these errors are helpful to learners. Looking at the book then we have a 'chicken going out to work' not a problem, 'scratces up the ground' and the last 'line eats worms and insects' so is all 'work of this nature? When mummy says daddy has gone to หากิน at the office, actually that is true isn't it? the eating part anyway, the kid will get it, but it involves eating worms and insects, actually part of that is true as well especially in Isan I believe, Ok I have got it now, thanks. I still like to think of this example as a chicken in pursuit of something to eat, and the verb กิน act of eating which can only be with food, this is far from being a literal translation, and should not confuse someone new to the language, quite the opposite, I think. Later they could learn as I did that it is not the actual meaning. Thanks for the นัก info, I have always understood it in that way but never bothered to look it up when I did look to support my first post I didn't find it, I have just now found it. I also see that หนัก has no other meaning other than heavy, I had turned it into an intensifier in my mind.

I suspect you don't joke much, did you look up หากิน as a noun? I have never been accused of over intellectualizing, I don't know whether to consider it a complement or not. As to romance languages Thai seems to have done their best to have all the features of English, I don't have any Latin, what could be more English than 'she is a ผุ้หญิงหากิน' ? a 'working girl'

By the way if I have annoyed anyone enough to have the expression กวนตีน said to me I haven't noticed, so somethning else learned.

At least we agree on the point of nursery rymes being important as a means of learning which is part of what I am recommending to learners of reading and writing.

[Briggsy]

Anywhere that is not too difficult is a good place to start to build up your reading comprehension. If it's too hard, it is demoralising. Nursery rhymes are not as straightforward as they might appear because they are written in a certain register or way. For example when I was a young child in England I learnt nursery rhymes without any inkling of their meaning. "Ring o' roses" is a good example.

How about Prathom 1 books in subjects other than ภาษาไทย? You can buy these anywhere. They tend to be written to be in a straightforward factual manner and you will learn interesting facts such as how many glasses of water you should drink a day and what are the duties of a 6-year-old child in terms of housework.

Just an idea for you.

[tgeezer]

Anywhere that is not too difficult is a good place to start to build up your reading comprehension. If it's too hard, it is demoralising. Nursery rhymes are not as straightforward as they might appear because they are written in a certain register or way. For example when I was a young child in England I learnt nursery rhymes without any inkling of their meaning. "Ring o' roses" is a good example.

How about Prathom 1 books in subjects other than ภาษาไทย? You can buy these anywhere. They tend to be written to be in a straightforward factual manner and you will learn interesting facts such as how many glasses of water you should drink a day and what are the duties of a 6-year-old child in terms of housework.

Just an idea for you.

Thanks for the interest but I have already decided how I am doing it.. I have done หลักภาษา at, P4 am halfway through year P5 and have two books for year p6 ready. There is only a little new stuff each step, I hope! For reading I don't mind the nursery rymes because the bueaty of them is you don't have to understand all the words many of them are meaningless but to get the tones right they are good. I have a book called ภาษาพาที I have been reading it today full of rymes, stories, songs narrated by the Sun! calls himself 'ดะวัน' Several books for vocabulary 'having fun with akson sung' ...Glang,... tua cuap, tua sagot etc. And the gor gy which is always with me. I have SangsermPrasop Chiwit and Witiyasat for P3 or 4 so I think I have it covered.

Edited February 24, 2008 by tgeezer