Why Is 'police Station' Called 'rong Pak'

[Trevor]

That's all. Thanks!

[Ski_Goong]

That's all. Thanks!

Because hat's where the people go to "rest"..

Ski...

[tgeezer]

I don't know why but perhaps in olden days police were either, out on the job, or resting. Not the sort of good 'number' we think they are on now. Much the same as England I should think where they were paraded and marched out, peeling off to their 'beat'. The anomoly means that I shall probably not forget it, certainly easier than the name I use. Thanks.

Edited February 12, 2008 by meadish_sweetball
Erased reference to post you wished deleted. /Meadish

[meadish_sweetball]

That's all. Thanks!

Because hat's where the people go to "rest"..

Ski...

That's how I interpret it too - a reference that a police station usually has 'basic accommodation' out the back, provided for free to those who need a time-out to 'rest' for a while from the hustle and bustle of society.

[Virin]

Someone told me in the old days when Thailand started having police, the place where they met and was like their office called โรง (rong).... the original name of that place. Later more polices and works, they started having their own office, called "โรงพักโปลิศ (rong pak police)....." a bit longer name but I couldn't remember. The formal name was given as สถานีตำรวจ - sa thaa nee dtam ruat, but I don't know when.

[Briggsy]

Could it refer to the fact that there is often police housing in the same compound as the police station?

[bobbob1001]

My Thai Girlfriend told me it refers to the fact that people are sent there to 'rest' That is to say put in the Cells.

[siamesekitty]

I'd always thought it was short for "Rohng pak tamruaj", referring to the "place where police stay", using logic derived from knowledge of other "rohng" words:

Rohng payabahn = hospital (place where there are nurses)

Rohng rien = school (place where you learn)

Rohng aharn = cafeteria (place where there is food)

Rohng ngahn = factory (place where "work" (goods) are produced)

[tgeezer]

I'd always thought it was short for "Rohng pak tamruaj", referring to the "place where police stay", using logic derived from knowledge of other "rohng" words:

Rohng payabahn = hospital (place where there are nurses)

Rohng rien = school (place where you learn)

Rohng aharn = cafeteria (place where there is food)

Rohng ngahn = factory (place where "work" (goods) are produced)

Which brings us nicely back to what I read as the point of the first post, the main activity of the police is 'resting!'

[siamesekitty]

Which brings us nicely back to what I read as the point of the first post, the main activity of the police is 'resting!'

Well, พัก doesn't necessarily have to mean "rest". It can also mean "stay" as in accommodation.

"พรุ่งนี้จะไปหัวหินกัน"

("We're going to Hua Hin tomorrow.")

"อ้าว จองที่พักไว้หรือยังล่ะ"

("Really? Have you reserved a place to stay yet?")

Edited February 15, 2008 by siamesekitty

[Virin]

From the history of Thai police:

In 1860, the King RAMA IV appointed British man: Captain Sammoal Joseph Bird Ames to set up "gong bpolice (police)" first time in Siam. Kaek Malayoo and Kaek India were hired to work as police, this unit was called "gong bpolice (police) constable", located at "rohng gatalae baan ampur" (currently is Samphanthawong District).

More works of "gong police", they expanded and moved to "saam yaek dton bpra doo", the office was called "rohng pak bpolice (police) saam yaek (saa gak lohw)"

From the Royal Institute: http://www.royin.go.th/th/knowledge/detail.php?ID=271

สถานีตำรวจ - sa thaa nee dtam ruat or police station

sa-thaa-nee means location, it's designated to use as an official name.

คำว่า สถานี เป็นคำที่ทางราชการกำหนดให้ใช้แทน - สถานีรถไฟ แทน สเตเช่นรถไฟ.

ที่ทำการของตำรวจ ซึ่งเดิม เรียกว่า โรงพัก ก็เปลี่ยนมาเรียกว่า สถานีตำรวจ.

[tgeezer]

From the history of Thai police:

In 1860, the King RAMA IV appointed British man: Captain Sammoal Joseph Bird Ames to set up "gong bpolice (police)" first time in Siam. Kaek Malayoo and Kaek India were hired to work as police, this unit was called "gong bpolice (police) constable", located at "rohng gatalae baan ampur" (currently is Samphanthawong District).

More works of "gong police", they expanded and moved to "saam yaek dton bpra doo", the office was called "rohng pak bpolice (police) saam yaek (saa gak lohw)"

From the Royal Institute: http://www.royin.go.th/th/knowledge/detail.php?ID=271

สถานีตำรวจ - sa thaa nee dtam ruat or police station

sa-thaa-nee means location, it's designated to use as an official name.

คำว่า สถานี เป็นคำที่ทางราชการกำหนดให้ใช้แทน - สถานีรถไฟ แทน สเตเช่นรถไฟ.

ที่ทำการของตำรวจ ซึ่งเดิม เรียกว่า โรงพัก ก็เปลี่ยนมาเรียกว่า สถานีตำรวจ.

Very interesting, I still think that from what your history says it was first a barracks since the force were expats, presumably with accomodation provided. I was gobsmacked to see that a station was called 'station', must have had a Brit. running that too, a good job someone stepped-in there. When it says ที่ทำการของตำรวจซึ่งเดิม...... it implies that it was a place of work on first being named, it was at time of writing of course, but the case is not proved or is it? Oh I forgot my dictionary defines สถานี as หน่วยที่ตั้งเป็นที่พักหรือที่ทำการ

Edited February 16, 2008 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

The question was why is a police station called โรงพัก and the answer of course should have been that it isn't, however it has been interesting and I for one am sure that I shall never forget what it is called.

Edited February 16, 2008 by tgeezer

[siamesekitty]

I'd like to retract my previous statement

I asked my elderly aunt, and she said it's called a โรงพัก because it's where they พัก the suspects (in the police station's holding cells) while waiting to send them to the court. If they are convicted, they are then sent to เรือนจำ (jail).

[Rikker]

Unfortunately, that kind of evidence isn't conclusive, siamesekitty. Clearly there are (at least) two logical ways to analyze the phrase โรงพัก, and only the historical record can really tell us which is the historically correct meaning. I'm on the fence at the moment.

[siamesekitty]

aw, mannnn....

[DavidHouston]

Unfortunately, that kind of evidence isn't conclusive, siamesekitty. Clearly there are (at least) two logical ways to analyze the phrase โรงพัก, and only the historical record can really tell us which is the historically correct meaning. I'm on the fence at the moment.

Rikker,

I noticed that the phrase may be found in the RID but it is not in McFarland or in your Jones Thai-English dictionary. Might an analysis of the provinance of the phrase be helpful in determining the meaning?

[Totster]

Unfortunately, that kind of evidence isn't conclusive, siamesekitty. Clearly there are (at least) two logical ways to analyze the phrase โรงพัก, and only the historical record can really tell us which is the historically correct meaning. I'm on the fence at the moment.

My wife, when questioned, gave the exact same explanation as siamesekitty's aunt.

So my question is this... Is the meaning that is possibly generally accepted by Thais correct, or is the original intended meaning (if it actually differs from the meaning generally accepted) correct ?

My interest is that if a meaning is interpreted by Thais as such, what further analysis is needed ?

Totster

[DavidHouston]

Unfortunately, that kind of evidence isn't conclusive, siamesekitty. Clearly there are (at least) two logical ways to analyze the phrase โรงพัก, and only the historical record can really tell us which is the historically correct meaning. I'm on the fence at the moment.

My wife, when questioned, gave the exact same explanation as siamesekitty's aunt.

So my question is this... Is the meaning that is possibly generally accepted by Thais correct, or is the original intended meaning (if it actually differs from the meaning generally accepted) correct ?

My interest is that if a meaning is interpreted by Thais as such, what further analysis is needed ?

Totster

Etymology (นิรุกติศาสตร์) for the layperson is only intellectual voyeurism; it is not about current meaning. Certainly everyone knows that this term means "police station". The issue is the source of the word; in fact, the RID says

"โรงพัก (ปาก) น. สถานีตำรวจ."

that is, this is an oral expression, not part of the official, written tradition; it is no less a valid word than if it were a Sanskrit or Pali origin but one expects more flexibility and evolution of a word external to the official set of terminology.

Stated another way, this is all in fun and personal interest. Let the games continue!

[Totster]

Stated another way, this is all in fun and personal interest. Let the games continue!

Well stated, and I most definitely agree !

Totster

[mangkorn]

Stated another way, this is all in fun and personal interest. Let the games continue!

Since you put it that way, I'm a gamer...

I've been following this thread from afar, and it seems clear that the name carries both meanings: where the police stay; and also where they พัก the suspects.

But my regular walking route from Chulalongkorn to Chinatown takes me past the Pathumwan police station, where on the outside it reads: สถานีตำรวจ - while on the inside there is another big sign that says: โรงพักประชาชน

The pluralism of the latter amuses me greatly: "Jail Cells, For The People."

Cheers.

Edited February 16, 2008 by mangkorn

[Rikker]

Well said, David. And nice anecdote, Mangkorn.

Like most of us (and most Thais nowadays) I had always assumed that it's called โรงพัก because it's a place you might have to stay/พัก for a night or two if you're unruly. But I'm intrigued by the possibility that the original name was โรงพักโปลิศ, which raises the other possibility that it was also a residence for the policemen. I assume these pages are where Virin got the info given above, which (to restate) says that the first police station was established near Sampheng in 1860 at a place called โรงกะทะ, and the police force was called กองโปลิสคอนสเตเบิ้ล. As Virin said, an Englishman named Ames was the first head of police (and Margaret Landon adds that Ames had a fellow Englishman as his co-captain named S. Bateman), and the first police force was 55 men, mostly Malays and Indians. Later, when the police force had grown, they changed locations and the new place was called โรงพักโปลิศสามแยก, apparently the first recorded use of โรงพัก. It makes sense that if the police force was a couple of Englishman and a bunch of Malays and Indians, that they would stay at the police headquarters, not being natives of the country, and thus probably not having established homes. In fact, I don't think we can even assume that the police headquarters at that time was a jail. We just don't know. So it's up in the air.

The following paragraph is off topic, but interesting. From what I can tell, the word ตำรวจ originally referred to a certain kind of court servant, referred to in the dictionaries of the 19th century as 'satellite' or 'lictor', meaning the king's attendants or bodyguards. Towards the end of the 19th Century, กองโปลิศ was replaced by กองตระเวน (an individual policeman being called a พลตระเวน). Based on dictionary definitions of the word ตำรวจ, it wasn't until the 1920s that ตำรวจ was officially used to mean 'police'.

As for the historical record of โรงพัก, dictionaries aren't much help. The Jones dictionary is almost certainly too old, since it was likely written 1830s-1840s, two decades before there were police. So it's no surprise it's not in there. I also checked Caswell 1846, just in case, but I didn't find โรงพัก. And neither Bradley 1873 nor Michell 1892 have it. Nor does Pallegoix/Vey 1896, nor a half dozen or so early 20th Century dictionaries I checked (Thai-Eng and Eng-Thai), ranging from 1901 through the 1930s. It's not in RID 1950 or 1982. It's in RID 1999 and Matichon 2004.

What an oddity! A term that's apparently been around for 150 years and only appears in dictionaries within the last decade.

[mangkorn]

My guess is that it originally meant the place where the police stay, but in usage it came to be logically thought of by some as the place where the suspects พัก.

Everybody has the inalienable right to enjoy a nice comfy jail cell...

[mangkorn]

Well said, David. And nice anecdote, Mangkorn.

Next time you hear certain politicians talk about พลังประชาชน - beware...

[Rikker]

My guess is that it originally meant the place where the police stay, but in usage it came to be logically thought of by some as the place where the suspects พัก.

Agreed. The meaning of โรงพัก has undergone reanalysis, to use linguistics-speak.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Rikker

[tgeezer]

My guess is that it originally meant the place where the police stay, but in usage it came to be logically thought of by some as the place where the suspects พัก.

Agreed. The meaning of โรงพัก has undergone reanalysis, to use linguistics-speak.

Well I think we can now assume that we know more about the word, than most Thais. There is no real answer but it got us all going for which the original poster must be thanked and I at first thought it was a 'wind-up'; which post Meadish helpfully deleted for me. The word with 'people" tagged on was what friend from the country-side said people used where he came from, another friend tried to rationalize this by talking about 'Tax' and paid for by the people; and so it goes on. I was talking to my teacher last evening and did not mention this but she saw my dictionary and declared that although it is twenty six years old it was still good. These dictionaries are authoratitive and published periodically. The title is impressive "jabubrajabaditdtayasataan' although they don't put this title in their dictionary so I can't look it up, neither is โรงพัก not surprising because presumably it was their predecessors who decided that they wanted no more truck with what a foreigner wanted Thais to call a police station. The same problem exists today with new words; computer, balloon to name a few.

Edited February 17, 2008 by tgeezer

[Virin]

My guess is that it originally meant the place where the police stay, but in usage it came to be logically thought of by some as the place where the suspects พัก.

Agreed. The meaning of โรงพัก has undergone reanalysis, to use linguistics-speak.

Well I think we can now assume that we know more about the word, than most Thais. Reaaaally!!!

siamesekitty

You're right, the elders told me the same story as your elderly aunt's, "she said it's called a โรงพัก because it's where they พัก the suspects (in the police station's holding cells) while waiting to send them to the court. If they are convicted, they are then sent to เรือนจำ (jail)".

Ohhh well, I am just a Thai .

[tgeezer]

Well I think we can now assume that we know more about the word, than most Thais. Reaaaally!!!

Don't be so sensitive. To make you feel better; A Nipper, so called because on warships the boys would 'nip' the cable which is too thick to go round the capstan to a smaller rope called a 'messenger' which can go round said capstan. Now you know more about the word 'nipper' than most English people, whether it is correct or not is another question! and most wouldn't care.

[sabaijai]

Could it refer to the fact that there is often police housing in the same compound as the police station?

This is the way I see it, but it comes to the same thing, 'place where police stay', ie, police station.