misterman21 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 We constantly hear about thai face and the often deadly consequences of losing it. Even judges can be sympathetic to a murderer who has been insulted- sorry lost face! Surely to lose face is the same as being insulted or embarrased by someone and hardly an excuse or reason to kill or maime someone. "He insulted me and i was embarrased so i shot him in the head your honor" - mitigating circumstances 6 months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie1971 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I dont think its anything to do with 'Face' its just a lack of self control, many times in the UK people have pissed me off or irritated me enough to make me want me want to kill them, but this feeling only lasts for a split second and i have yet to kill anyone out of anger or embarassment - the excuses here (for killing someone) are similar to those given at nursery school when one child hits another for taking their toy - Just dont piss them off and if you inadvertently do be sure to strike the first blow and run like hell1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 yeah basically "face" is tied to the ego. thais have the biggest, most fragile egos of anyone i have met. if that ego is insulted, anything can happen. definitely like children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistresserika Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 yeah basically "face" is tied to the ego. thais have the biggest, most fragile egos of anyone i have met. if that ego is insulted, anything can happen. definitely like children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. Totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RueFang Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 People are aware this is a different culture right? I agree that the 'face' issue is about being insulted or embarrassed by someone's behaviour and the reaction to that situation, but just because Thais react differently from people in other cultures doesn't mean it's about having a big ego..different cultures react differently to different situations. It's hard for us to comprehend why Thais put so much importance on 'face' but it's very much a cultural thing and being outsiders, how would we know the depths of it. Understanding 'different' is helpful when living outside your own culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrobay Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 So in Thai culture what types of actions do you think qualify to make a Thai to be insulted or lose face ? Especially actions that would not upset someone too much who is from another culture. Also, the amphetamine problem could have something to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RueFang Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Rather then starting yet other commentary on what types of actions qualify to make a Thai loose face, go to the search box in the upper left corner and type in Thai Face and read the 31,100 threads on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I have much more experience with Chinese (from China) but I believe face is the same everywhere, a bullying tactic. Asian societies are based on strict hierarchy. You should have noticed that when two people meet for the firt time, the fist thing they do is guess who is "superior" to the other one. "Face" is a way to force the result. It is also a negociation tactic, between bluff and bullying, to get the upper hand in a deal or just a better table in a restaurant. Just look at RueFang last two posts, how she tries to shut down the thread in a very typical Asian way of using the "face", bold letters in 1st post, phony statistics in the second. You give her face and you back off, or you call the bluff ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossfinn Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 phony statistics in the second. I think it has more to do with Irony and I also agree RF has exaggerated a little bit, there are only 30,999 post on the subject Moss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Rue Fang is not Thai, so not sure what your issue is here Pierrot. As for the idea of "phony statistics" perhaps you need to re-read her point instead of nitpick on numbers. The exaggeration was made for a reason, if you can't grasp that reason without attacking her then perhaps you really do need to do the search. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum, which is the point she was trying to make. Over and over and over and usually ends up being an excuse to complain, gripe, moan and bitch about a country and a culture most of us have chosen to live in. One basic concept that many people fail to grasp here is that this is not Europe, North America or Australia or New Zealand. They do things differently here, they think in a different manner and have a different world view. Instead of constant complaining perhaps people should attempt to understand the idea that they aren't in their home countries anymore. Different cultures have different ways of doing things and dealing with issues and instead of standing in judgment, as if coming from some superior culture, it would be better if more people made an effort to grasp the concept that it is just different. Sure, some things are wrong, some things are bad, but, so are some things good. However, if all some people can do is focus on the negative and complain then I am really not sure what they are doing here. If a person refuses to come to terms with the place they live is that really the fault of the people around them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merck Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I often hear about Thai and Asian face, as though its something mysterious and hard to understand, but is it really that different to Western face? It's most probably a universal human trait not to like to lose face and be embarrased in front of others, even young children can get embarrassed eg if they fall over etc. And people also like to gain face in front of others, for example receive compliments etc. Perhaps face harks back to primevil instincts and caveman times when there was a pecking order in a tribe and it was important to maintain your place and position for survival. I think where things may differ is that asians place more emphasis on not losing face and respecting others' face. In the West we do to some extent ride roughshod over others' face, so perhaps we have developed thicker skins and don't go about killing others over loss of face so easily, but it does happen nevertheless. Anyhow, just a few brief thoughts, would be interested to hear others' opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Rue Fang is not Thai, so not sure what your issue is here Pierrot. As for the idea of "phony statistics" perhaps you need to re-read her point instead of nitpick on numbers. The exaggeration was made for a reason, if you can't grasp that reason without attacking her then perhaps you really do need to do the search. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum, which is the point she was trying to make. Over and over and over and usually ends up being an excuse to complain, gripe, moan and bitch about a country and a culture most of us have chosen to live in. One basic concept that many people fail to grasp here is that this is not Europe, North America or Australia or New Zealand. They do things differently here, they think in a different manner and have a different world view. Instead of constant complaining perhaps people should attempt to understand the idea that they aren't in their home countries anymore. Different cultures have different ways of doing things and dealing with issues and instead of standing in judgment, as if coming from some superior culture, it would be better if more people made an effort to grasp the concept that it is just different. Sure, some things are wrong, some things are bad, but, so are some things good. However, if all some people can do is focus on the negative and complain then I am really not sure what they are doing here. If a person refuses to come to terms with the place they live is that really the fault of the people around them? My point has nothing to do with RueFang being Thai or not, but on her technique which, this is my point, illustrates how people in Asia use "Face" to force their arguments upon others. Regarding the numbers, there is no exageration and I did the search, I found about the same number she mentions, but the results include "face treatments", "face masks" ....absolutely no relation with the subject. That why I call using this number a "phony" statistic. " it would be better if more people made an effort to grasp the concept" It was my intent. "Face" in its annoying aspect, is, for me, mostly a bullying technique that people shouldn't be afraid of. On the other hand, nobody likes to be humiliated in front of others but this is not specific to Thai culture. "This topic has been discussed ad nauseum" It's possible, but it seems to me that new members are joining everyday and a forum is a place to share experiences. So on a regular basis, there will be new comers discussing the same subjects all over again (this thread has been started by someone who joined less than one month ago !!!) For a lot of people, this forum is a safety valve where they can express their frustation when faced with situation they don't really understand and meet other people with similar problems. Read the comments from Thai abroad in Pantip, it's not really different. If you could understand that too, it would ne nice. Have a good night Pierrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossfinn Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 there is no exageration and I did the search, That why I call using this number a "phony" statistic. Crikey, I didn't do the search and your response surprizes the H_ll out of me, I thought it was irony. I think it has more to do with Irony and I also agree RF has exaggerated a little bit, there are only 30,999 post on the subject Moss The exaggeration was made for a reason, "This topic has been discussed ad nauseum" It's possible, but it seems to me that new members are joining everyday and a forum is a place to share experiences. So on a regular basis, there will be new comers discussing the same subjects all over again (this thread has been started by someone who joined less than one month ago !!!) This I agree with, new members, new questions, old answers, it doesn't negate the reason for asking, so good shout here, but what it doesn't negate is your statement of, ' Asian Face', I have seen considerable Western Face too, but that is just a statement on my part. Have a good night Pierrot Thank you I will. Moss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumspero Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 sbk- thanks for the lecture. Something you should ponder is whether people aren't about 90% the same, with cultural differences being easy to see, but not cutting that deep into one's humanity. Most times when people have problems in another country, at least in my opinion, it's because they're focusing on the shallow differences and somehow assuming they cut deeper than they do, rather than understanding that we're all the same race--humans--with much more in common that not. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 The oddest aspect of this to me is that the most basic tenet of Buddhism is that there is no personal identity. There is no 'self'. This is the foundation of the Doctrine of the Anatman and it was the crucial element in Sidhartha's complete awakening. If there is no personal identity, then there is no 'face' to be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 in Thailand we call it face and in farang labd we call ut arrogant. I see people lose face here in Sydney all the time at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
submaniac Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) yeah basically "face" is tied to the ego. thais have the biggest, most fragile egos of anyone i have met. if that ego is insulted, anything can happen. definitely like children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. Ummmm....let me guess, is this related to the good 'ol ex BF? I must also add "Bravo! She really does 'understand' Thai men!!!" Edited February 17, 2008 by submaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 This I agree with, new members, new questions, old answers, it doesn't negate the reason for asking, so good shout here, but what it doesn't negate is your statement of, ' Asian Face', I have seen considerable Western Face too, but that is just a statement on my part.Have a good night Pierrot Thank you I will. Moss Good morning Moss ! I think I need to explain that I didn't use "Asian Face" by opposition to western face, but to emphasize it was something that was common in East Asia (I'm not familiar with India) and not specific to Thailand. Asian people are much more master of their expression that western people are and they play this card very well, like bluff in a poker game. When you see people upset, sad or angry for what seems no real reason, try to call the bluff and you will see sometime the feeling disappears as fast as it's appeared. But play the game sensibly, you won't bet all your money in a casino against a professional player, will you ? I'm sure you will have a good day Pierrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) yeah basically "face" is tied to the ego. thais have the biggest, most fragile egos of anyone i have met. if that ego is insulted, anything can happen. definitely like children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. Ummmm....let me guess, is this related to the good 'ol ex BF? I must also add "Bravo! She really does 'understand' Thai men!!!" no, and no offense to you but i don't like it when people assume the 2 relationships i have had with thai men are the end all and be all of the experience i have had with thais in the past 8 years. i was actually thinking of a situation with my neighbor when i wrote that. he is a policeman who rents out motorbikes. someone scratched a motorbike and he charged them around 15000b to fix, they balked and said they could't pay that, tried to negotiate which apparently made the cop lose face, he pulled out a gun and chased them down the block because they dared to question him. i think this kind of thing happens way more often in thailand than in the states, for instance. in the west we are more apt to talk things out. the reactions are different here- as a thai friend said to me yesterday "if you try to talk too much here, you die". i feel perfectly justified in criticizing that cultural aspect, just as there are cultural aspects i criticize about americans. Edited February 17, 2008 by girlx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 We constantly hear about thai face and the often deadly consequences of losing it. Even judges can be sympathetic to a murderer who has been insulted- sorry lost face!Surely to lose face is the same as being insulted or embarrased by someone and hardly an excuse or reason to kill or maime someone. "He insulted me and i was embarrased so i shot him in the head your honor" - mitigating circumstances 6 months! You are totally correct - faceis a big consideration in Asia but Thai's use it as an excuse. Thing is though Thai's have so little face to lose any more must really hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) yeah basically "face" is tied to the ego. thais have the biggest, most fragile egos of anyone i have met. if that ego is insulted, anything can happen. definitely like children who throw temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. Ummmm....let me guess, is this related to the good 'ol ex BF? I must also add "Bravo! She really does 'understand' Thai men!!!" No she is correct, small ego little face. Thats why a loss of a tiny bit hurts so much. Do not listen to farangs - listen other Asians. Nobody whores their children like Thai's (it was a Thai girl who said that to me last night as she upset that she thought people thought she might be a hooker) Edited February 17, 2008 by Prakanong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Thing is though Thai's have so little face to lose any more must really hurt. Thing is they tend to take it out on the folks they think can't do anything about it like foreigners, especially refugees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RueFang Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Just look at RueFang last two posts, how she tries to shut down the thread in a very typical Asian way of using the "face", bold letters in 1st post, phony statistics in the second. You give her face and you back off, or you call the bluff ... Yes, I am quite the phony attempting to intimidate people with my BOLD (oh and CAPITAL) letters . I'm not one to sprout fake statistics out my butt so I did do the search before I wrote that and it did say 31,100 with the first page being specifically about Thai Face...so yes, I guess I did provide inaccurate statistics because I did not look through each of the 30 thousand threads to be absolutely correct in my statement. I stand corrected and humbly apologize to anyone who I inconvenienced and scared off the forum by my bold remarks. I have just done the same search and got 30,900 so there you go. A bit beyond the point of the topic though, and as sbk points out, I was referring newbies to many other similar threads so they could read up on things that have been discussed a million (oops, there I go again!) times already so that they can then bring new points of discussion to the table. I'm sure you'll have a lovely evening now that's sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterman21 Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) sbk- thanks for the lecture.Something you should ponder is whether people aren't about 90% the same, with cultural differences being easy to see, but not cutting that deep into one's humanity. Most times when people have problems in another country, at least in my opinion, it's because they're focusing on the shallow differences and somehow assuming they cut deeper than they do, rather than understanding that we're all the same race--humans--with much more in common that not. Cheers. Face is not in the slightest a shallow difference - especially when so many ferngs who have done nothing more than misunderstand the often fatal consequences of embarassing a thai are brutally murdered - even by the police! I think the best interpretation is that the thais have fragile egos with minimal self control - primative really! Dangerous in a modern world - worth understanding! Even if this subject has been touched upon many times in the past it is still worth revisiting - it could save a life or 20 Some important aspects in thai culture dont fit with face i.e. 1) Bhuddism dosent accept the notion of face 2) Where is the face in whoring daughters 3) where is the face in murder and violence Reading the book Wondering in to Thai culture gives a good insight. Also realizing that thia males are rarley disciplined at home, and the eduction of the poor majority is - well too little to fit on the back of a cigarrete pack Edited February 18, 2008 by misterman21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmart Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Cultural deficiency of a backwards, feudalistic society. Usually (but not always) sported by over-indulged Thai males with ego sizes inversely proportional to their intelligence or ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Pity we couldn't get an academic discussion instead of the usual stuff spouted by people who like to imagine that their own cultures are somehow more superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai Dee Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 From the Forum Rules: "Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated." Thw direction this topic has headed is downhill fast. /Closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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