Are "working Girls" Considered Immoral In Buddhism

[Pepe']

Is it right to judge them?

[Brucenkhamen]

Is it right to judge them?

Lets see, they provide a service in return for money, like just about everybody else. I'd be more inclined to question the morality of their customers.

Either way you can't judge a book by it's cover.

[chutai]

Is it right to judge them?

I would suggest that if at all 'pooying bar' and 'sopanee' are more culturally ostrasised than because of breaking any precept. How many Buddhists don't break at least one, or many, of them everyday? Precepts are not commandments, but only helpful guidelines. Yet others (Thai and foreigner) understand the pragmatism of the life of the very poor without condoning a lifestyle which seems more self-destructive than otherwise (?)

One the other hand though, many of them who work in the sex trade do in fact create merit by making offerings to Buddha images and somewhat more assiduous practices.

Ultimately they are human beings and, therefore, worthy of respect and not judgement. Buddhists don't , or shouldn't make such. That's not helpful to anybobody.The lifestyle and actions that they engage in are their responsibility - even if one may not particularly like (or even have an aversion to) much that may be considered to be ugly and even dangerous amongst them.

The essence of Buddhism is Compassion and Wisdom (with not a little courage) and not in judgement of what a person may engage in, look like, or possess in terms of social status and material wealth.

We are all are sure to attain Buddhahood in the future.

Edited February 16, 2008 by chutai

[PeaceBlondie]

The byline about Jesus and Mary Magdalene is beside the point. Especially since it's false. Jesus, however, refused to stone a woman caught in the very act of adultery, although he referred to it as a sin. Most commentators on the passage point out that the MEN who brought the WOMAN to Jesus had failed to also drag in the MAN, who was also in the act. Mary Magdalene is never called a prostitute nor a sexual sinner. Nor was the woman caught in adultery accused of prostitution.

Now, back to Buddhism....

[Samuian]

considering the kamma effect of their "free will and choice"... "they" have to deal with... hmmmm... I know some who have quite a burden to carry but haven't realized the connection yet...some think it's all just party and "easy" money... unless they get "experienced" and older...my guess it is considered "immoral" but then it's just another judgement based on "moral values"... back to "he who us without sin throws the first stone..."!

[britmaveric]

Simple answer NO.

[jumnien]

In America, there is an organization called "Hookers for Jesus". To my knowledge, in Thailand there is no comparable "ho's for Buddha".

[Ave]

I think that as a person you can add spiritual value in every "working" environment, as long as you put your heart into it.

Someone with low moral boundaries but with a growing wisdom and compassion for others and themselves can transform and raise their life state. But we also have to understand that not everyone has that self determination and willingness to get out of certain easy jobs as such. Many are caught in the loop or simply think they can't do anything else, or else don't know any better. Some are there to face their demons and learn. Some others think they are doing the right thing for themselves and their kids and family back in the village most of them come from.

I never wanted to live in a place like Pattaya because of its reputation and because it has nothing to offer to the majority of western women like me.

However, now that work has dragged me to Pattaya I understand a lot more about working girls. There is an incredible variety of them, several of them with horrendous family backrounds. I really think that we can't give general judgements. Some lose it along the way and end up in nasty ways. Others have the opportunity to be saved by the loving farang who will bring them stability and affection, and so on. And what if they are happy with what they are doing and make others happy?

Certainly people have the potential to create more human value where there is more suffering/absence of love, though it's simply a matter of choice whether you are religious or not.

[Samuian]

I think that as a person you can add spiritual value in every "working" environment, as long as you put your heart into it.

Someone with low moral boundaries but with a growing wisdom and compassion for others and themselves can transform and raise their life state. But we also have to understand that not everyone has that self determination and willingness to get out of certain easy jobs as such. Many are caught in the loop or simply think they can't do anything else, or else don't know any better. Some are there to face their demons and learn. Some others think they are doing the right thing for themselves and their kids and family back in the village most of them come from.

I never wanted to live in a place like Pattaya because of its reputation and because it has nothing to offer to the majority of western women like me.

However, now that work has dragged me to Pattaya I understand a lot more about working girls. There is an incredible variety of them, several of them with horrendous family backrounds. I really think that we can't give general judgements. Some lose it along the way and end up in nasty ways. Others have the opportunity to be saved by the loving farang who will bring them stability and affection, and so on. And what if they are happy with what they are doing and make others happy?

Certainly people have the potential to create more human value where there is more suffering/absence of love, though it's simply a matter of choice whether you are religious or not.

Spot on, how true!

[Ave]

Thank you. This thread could have been in a forum called something else, though...

[Ave]

Thank you.

To be fair I would also welcome the opinion of people of differing beliefs

[chutai]

I think that as a person you can add spiritual value in every "working" environment, as long as you put your heart into it.

Someone with low moral boundaries but with a growing wisdom and compassion for others and themselves can transform and raise their life state. But we also have to understand that not everyone has that self determination and willingness to get out of certain easy jobs as such. Many are caught in the loop or simply think they can't do anything else, or else don't know any better. Some are there to face their demons and learn. Some others think they are doing the right thing for themselves and their kids and family back in the village most of them come from.

I never wanted to live in a place like Pattaya because of its reputation and because it has nothing to offer to the majority of western women like me.

However, now that work has dragged me to Pattaya I understand a lot more about working girls. There is an incredible variety of them, several of them with horrendous family backrounds. I really think that we can't give general judgements. Some lose it along the way and end up in nasty ways. Others have the opportunity to be saved by the loving farang who will bring them stability and affection, and so on. And what if they are happy with what they are doing and make others happy?

A lot of what you say has some value in it. But to be honest most that go with khon farang on a long term basis do so for securety for themselves and children/family and not because it makes them intrisically happy. That can only be found by one means - the rest is transcient.

Certainly people have the potential to create more human value where there is more suffering/absence of love, though it's simply a matter of choice whether you are religious or not.

Firstly, congratulations Ave on receiving your Gohonzon last week. I'm sure that you'll gain much benefit from your new life centred around it.

But feel that I must point out that value is created by what you put your trust, hope and faith into - your own honzon. Only the Gohonzon allows one to create value as indestructable as a diamond and by chanting daimoku. All other honzons are temporal and subject to the workings of the nine other Worlds apart from Buddhahood.

I think that you'll appreciate these words of wisdom, so true when we change direction from self-centeredness to embracing our environment and working for the happiness of all humanity.

Hardships make us strong. Problems give birth to wisdom. Sorrows cultivate compassion for others. Those who have suffered the most can become the happiest.

[Plus]

Is it right to judge them?

Judge what?

I think you should try to judge, as usual, whether they are making their best efforts in their situation and whether you can learn something from them.

You should also think whether assossiating with them will rob some of their negative traits on you and so interfere with your practice. One should always seek a company of more advanced individuals, I believe. They should do the same, but it's often not what they are approaching you for (though many do look for someone to save them).

[Virin]

Working girls do have same opportunities as the others to become enlightened but their act is considered as an unwholesome one.

[camerata]

Is it right to judge them?

We shouldn't judge anyone. Judging and criticizing is mostly just puffing up the ego and feeling superior. From BuddhaNet:

"The Buddha did not look down upon prostitutes. On the contrary he provided opportunity for them to enter the rightful path in the same manner as other. Once he accepted an invitation from Ambapali, a courtesan, for lunch on the next day. After that the Licchavi princes came and offered him an invitation again. He declined as he already accepted an invitation form Ambapali. This courtesan was the same person who later offered him and the Sangha a mango grove for the monks' residence.

Jivaka, the famous physician who attended personally to the Buddha and the Sangha was also born of a prostitute. He was never frowned upon for his birth.

Being a prostitute is not an obstacle to enlightenment if she is willing and diligently practises dharma. In fact, the experience of a prostitute could help her towards enlightenment sooner than otherwise.

Buddhism does not support prostitutes. On the contrary it points out that prostitution is an unwholesome act. Buddhists do not look down upon prostitutes. If they choose to practice dharma, they have an equal, if not better chance to become enlightened."

[chownah]

Is there a Sutta which indicates that sex work is unwholesome? I'm just wondering where this view comes from and what other things are similarly unwholesome.

Chownah

[IMA_FARANG]

Is it right to judge them?

Wouldn't it be much better for you to consider your actions and how it affects you and your future than to spend your time to censure others?

Can you possibly know what another person does in the light of the heavy weight of their own being and how they struggle with their life?

Walk your own path, keep your own path straight as you judge it. Let the others walk their path. In the end that is all you can truely do anyhow.

First. tend your own garden.

[Brucenkhamen]

Is there a Sutta which indicates that sex work is unwholesome? I'm just wondering where this view comes from and what other things are similarly unwholesome.

Chownah

I don't need a scripture to tell me what is and isn't wholesome, it can be observed though cause and effect.

Now what does unwholesome mean? my understanding it means "bad for you", fruit and cereal is wholesome and icecream and chocolate is unwholesome.

I haven't met any sex workers but I can't imagine that most people could do it without it damaging their sense of well being and self worth, not to mention the crime, drugs, and dishonesty that is associated with the scene. So from that point of view it's unwholesome.

Back to Pepe's question are working girls considered immoral, is being born poor and having to do work that other people might find objectionable to support your family immoral? I don't think so. If it were then cleaning toilets and growing sticky rice is also immoral.

Are the customers being immoral? If one has a judeo christian ethic where marriage is very important then yes, otherwise as long as the supplier of the service is treated with considertaion and respect I don't think so.

Is what the customers do unwholesome? For someone not following the Buddhas path maybe maybe not. For someone who is trying to follow the Buddhas path if they are regularly using the services of prostitutes they really need to examine themselves and question why sex is so important that they want to pay for it. I don't see the harm in the occasional tryst if you don't have a commitment tio somebody else but to pursue desire again and again without examining, understanding, and seeing it objectively can only bee unwholesome to the development of the Buddas path.

[chownah]

Is there a Sutta which indicates that sex work is unwholesome? I'm just wondering where this view comes from and what other things are similarly unwholesome.

Chownah

I don't need a scripture to tell me what is and isn't wholesome, it can be observed though cause and effect.

Now what does unwholesome mean? my understanding it means "bad for you", fruit and cereal is wholesome and icecream and chocolate is unwholesome.

I haven't met any sex workers but I can't imagine that most people could do it without it damaging their sense of well being and self worth, not to mention the crime, drugs, and dishonesty that is associated with the scene. So from that point of view it's unwholesome.

Back to Pepe's question are working girls considered immoral, is being born poor and having to do work that other people might find objectionable to support your family immoral? I don't think so. If it were then cleaning toilets and growing sticky rice is also immoral.

Are the customers being immoral? If one has a judeo christian ethic where marriage is very important then yes, otherwise as long as the supplier of the service is treated with considertaion and respect I don't think so.

Is what the customers do unwholesome? For someone not following the Buddhas path maybe maybe not. For someone who is trying to follow the Buddhas path if they are regularly using the services of prostitutes they really need to examine themselves and question why sex is so important that they want to pay for it. I don't see the harm in the occasional tryst if you don't have a commitment tio somebody else but to pursue desire again and again without examining, understanding, and seeing it objectively can only bee unwholesome to the development of the Buddas path.

I am aware that many people think they know what is wholesome and what is not and I am also aware that they disagree with each other. I did not post to find out posters personal views on this...I posted to find out what the Buddha had to say about this.

I too wonder why people "pursue desire again and again"....why don't married couples only have sex for reproduction...why do they "pursue desire again and again"?.....and people who regularly watch football on the tube....why do they "pursue desire again and again"?....and people who take an evening walk to enjoy the sunset...why do they "pursue desire again and again".....are these things unwholesome too?

Chownah

Edited February 17, 2008 by chownah

[chutai]

I too wonder why people "pursue desire again and again"....why don't married couples only have sex for reproduction...why do they "pursue desire again and again"?.....and people who regularly watch football on the tube....why do they "pursue desire again and again"?....and people who take an evening walk to enjoy the sunset...why do they "pursue desire again and again".....are these things unwholesome too?

I don't know that earthly desires can be categorised into 'wholesome' ones and "unwholesome" ones. Only that earthly desires lead to attachment - to suffering.

However, in Mahayana it is said that “Earthly desires are enlightenment”. Which has a corresponding anology with the Lotus Flower - often seen as a symbol of purity - which not only seeds and blooms at the same time (cause and effect) but also has it seed in the murky depths of mud at the bottom of the pond and it's pure bloom floating on the top.

More fundementally spoken, it is the realisation of the unsatisfactoriness with the consequences of 'earthly desires' which motivates us towards the desire to seek enlightenment.

Edited February 17, 2008 by chutai

[Pepe']

Is it right to judge them?

That's an academic question pure and simple.

I have lots of questions about lots of things.

One thing I' sure of is I'm in no position to judge anyone.

Thanks for the many thought provoking and some inspirational replies...

[camerata]

Is there a Sutta which indicates that sex work is unwholesome? I'm just wondering where this view comes from and what other things are similarly unwholesome.

Chownah

I don't think the Buddha ever said anything specific about prostitution. But in most people's mind it's a violation of the precept against sexual misconduct. I like Ajahn Brahm's reduction of all precepts to: "Don't harm others and don't harm yourself." Many of the working girls I've met were clearly harming themselves mentally and, sometimes, physically. Also, from a Buddhist perspective, I don't think their customers are acting skillfully in taking advantage of a prostitute's unfortunate situation.

[Brucenkhamen]

I am aware that many people think they know what is wholesome and what is not and I am also aware that they disagree with each other. I did not post to find out posters personal views on this...I posted to find out what the Buddha had to say about this.

I'm not aware of the Buddha having said anything specific on the subject of prostitution, but my knowledge of scripture is pretty limited compared with yours.

[Brucenkhamen]

I have lots of questions about lots of things.

So far you've had lots of questions about one thing, lets hear the others.

[Virin]

Is there a Sutta which indicates that sex work is unwholesome? I'm just wondering where this view comes from and what other things are similarly unwholesome.

Chownah

Thanks Brucenkhamen and camerata to provide good explanations on this.

I'm born Buddhist, surrounded with Buddhist laypeople and monks, in the past 10 years I've been a bit instense reading Buddhist and related books also practicing meditation - Kaammathaan, sorry to make it sounds so arrogant . Anyway, I'm still a student in Buddhism but I do understand the difference between wholesome and unwholesome acts in religion and worldly life. So far I haven't met any Buddhists disagree with the perspective that prostitution is an unwholesome act . And also the monks don't need to code the Sutras to convince me everytime I listen to their teachings.

I've never tried to memorize the Buddha's codes in each sutra and I don't think he would answer everything we want to know. The Buddha gives us the guideline, the right path to follow, the result of Buddhist practice is individual, we practice our mind to gain wisdom, but it's varied.

[Iambabababor]

I am a non believer but respect everyones right to their beliefs.

It is my view that anyone who is not prepared to practice the edicts of their religion should not participate.

Quite apart from all the hookers, just look at all the politicians one sees on the TV. hands together as if in prayer, yet many are so corrupt and dishonest that they have no right pretending to believe.

Further what about all those drivers who having created an appalling accident with death and injury, flee the scene, and the very next day are in their saffron robes somewhere upcountry collecting alms.

[camerata]

I am a non believer but respect everyones right to their beliefs.

It is my view that anyone who is not prepared to practice the edicts of their religion should not participate.

There are no "edicts" in Buddhism, just precepts for Buddhists to follow if they want to progress on the path to enlightenment.

The topic is about the Buddhist perspective on prostitution, not the perception that Thais don't follow their religion properly, which has already been discussed here ad nauseum. Let's stick to the topic at hand.

[chutai]

So far I haven't met any Buddhists disagree with the perspective that prostitution is an unwholesome act.

To be frank, I'm not convinced that prostitution is such an "unwholesome act". It's just that what surrounds it often leads to suffering for both those engaged in the 'profession' and those buying their services. But I reiterate, all desires lead to attachments that are the causes of suffering. The fundamental darkness of the mind isn't solely restricted to any one section of society.

If we where to compare causing division in the Sangha, murdering our parents or a Buddha, or taking life generally with prostitution, then it would seem a very minor karmic offence - if at all.

The point to remember is that we all carry unhappy karma to a greater or lesser extent. It's by actively transforming - and helping others to do the same - that we gain great benefit in changing our own karma. Rather than discussing the placement and location of the impliment causing pain, let's first of all remove the knife.

Edited February 17, 2008 by chutai

[AsiaCheese]

In America, there is an organization called "Hookers for Jesus". To my knowledge, in Thailand there is no comparable "ho's for Buddha".

Thank God [pun fully intended] for that. Once that happens, Thailand will be where the Bible Belt (and bordering states) are today, and it'll be time to look for another planet

[chownah]

In America, there is an organization called "Hookers for Jesus". To my knowledge, in Thailand there is no comparable "ho's for Buddha".

Thank God [pun fully intended] for that. Once that happens, Thailand will be where the Bible Belt (and bordering states) are today, and it'll be time to look for another planet

Maybe its time for you to start looking.....in small villages if a girl goes to the big city and makes alot of money as a sex worker it is not uncommon for her to come back to her village from time to time to donate funds for the local temple.....as rural Thai Buddhism goes this is considered to be a very pious and reverant act.....

Chownah