นโยบาย / ประโขนง

[chinnotes]

I would well appreciate if somebody could give any suggestions to the following question:

Is there any reason (rule) why in นโยบาย the sara โ is written behind the first consonant, while in ประโขนง it is written in front of the consonant. Or is it a simple irregularity which we have to accept?

Thank you in advance, Erwin

[withnail]

I don't know if it explains it but if you moved the โ in พระโขนง I believe the pronunciation would change from phra (h) ka (h) nong ® to phra (h) ko (l) nong (m)

Edited February 17, 2008 by withnail

[withnail]

ka not ko

[kriswillems]

Withnail, are you sure ka is high tone?

I would expect พระโขนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โหนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (rising)

And I would expect พระขโนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (mid)

Let's look at โขนง only:

When a high class consonant in one syllable is followed by is by a "vowel-sound" ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant, the vowel ะ is not written.

Any vowels that need to be written in front of the second (low class) consonant are written in front of the first consonant (of the first syllable), but they are pronounced after the second (low class) consonant.

The tone of the second syllable will be rising. The tone of the first syllable is low.

Now let's look at:

นโยบาย

The first consonant (of the first syllable) is low class. The second consonant is also low class. Normally you would expect that the vowel ะ needs to be written, because the last rule doesn't apply. BUT: the vowel ะ is not written when it's followed by a vowel that you write in front of the (next) consonant/syllable (because such a vowel already clearly marks the start of a new syllable, so you know there should be a invisible vowel in the first syllable, and there no need to write the vowel). The place of the vowel of the second syllable is where you would expect it to be.

Edited February 18, 2008 by kriswillems

[tgeezer]

I would well appreciate if somebody could give any suggestions to the following question:

Is there any reason (rule) why in นโยบาย the sara โ is written behind the first consonant, while in พระโขนง it is written in front of the consonant. Or is it a simple irregularity which we have to accept?

Thank you in advance, Erwin

As in อโศก you mean? I think you have to accept it. I sent myself to sleep last night reading the 'How to use' section of my favorite dictionary and saw that the Learned body who wrote it decides; they changed the spelling of หมากพ้ราว to มะพ้ราว for instance because it was to long and not being said.

[siamesekitty]

I forget all the various rules of Thai spelling and grammar, but I believe kriswillems's comments are correct.

[kriswillems]

อโศก

Is not written โอศก because อ is mid class and ศ is high class. The โ moves to the front in 2 syllable words only when the consonant of the first consonant is high class (or in some cases mid class) and the following syllable start with a low class consonant.

And it's not written อะโศก because โ clearly markห the start of a new syllable. So we know "อ" is a complete syllable, and because each syllable has a vowel, the syllable should be pronounced as "อะ". There is no need to write the ะ

Edited February 18, 2008 by kriswillems

[kokesaat]

Withnail, are you sure ka is high tone?

I would expect พระโขนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โหนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (rising)

And I would expect พระขโนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (mid)

Let's look at โขนง only:

When a high class consonant in one syllable is followed by is by a "vowel-sound" ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant, the vowel ะ is not written.

Any vowels that need to be written in front of the second (low class) consonant are written in front of the first consonant (of the first syllable), but they are pronounced after the second (low class) consonant.

The tone of the second syllable will be rising. The tone of the first syllable is low.

Now let's look at:

นโยบาย

The first consonant (of the first syllable) is low class. The second consonant is also low class. Normally you would expect that the vowel ะ needs to be written, because the last rule doesn't apply. BUT: the vowel ะ is not written when it's followed by a vowel that you write in front of the (next) consonant/syllable (because such a vowel already clearly marks the start of a new syllable, so you know there should be a invisible vowel in the first syllable, and there no need to write the vowel). The place of the vowel of the second syllable is where you would expect it to be.

I may be reading your post wrong, but สะใภ doesn't follow the rule you mention above (When a high class consonant in one syllable is followed by is by a "vowel-sound" ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant, the vowel ะ is not written.) ส=high class consonant followed by vowel-sound ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant (ภ)

I'm always looking for i-before-e-except-after-c rules from my Thai teacher, but either she doesn't know very many or there aren't many to know.

[kriswillems]

there are some exceptions:

for instance: อะไร, there no reason why ะ needs to be written.

or words that start with พระ ประ or ระ normally don't loose their ะ

Also many words with สะ just have to be remembered.

I personally think it's better not to study all these rules. You will learn to recognize them when you read a lot. Beside that, there are a lot of exceptions. Maybe"rules" is even a too strong word. You should only fall back to these "guidelines" when you can remember how the word should be written.

Edited February 18, 2008 by kriswillems

[kokesaat]

Withnail, are you sure ka is high tone?

I would expect พระโขนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โหนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (rising)

And I would expect พระขโนง is pronounced as:

พระ - ขะ - โนง pra (high) - kha (low) - noong (mid)

Let's look at โขนง only:

When a high class consonant in one syllable is followed by is by a "vowel-sound" ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant, the vowel ะ is not written.

Any vowels that need to be written in front of the second (low class) consonant are written in front of the first consonant (of the first syllable), but they are pronounced after the second (low class) consonant.

The tone of the second syllable will be rising. The tone of the first syllable is low.

Now let's look at:

นโยบาย

The first consonant (of the first syllable) is low class. The second consonant is also low class. Normally you would expect that the vowel ะ needs to be written, because the last rule doesn't apply. BUT: the vowel ะ is not written when it's followed by a vowel that you write in front of the (next) consonant/syllable (because such a vowel already clearly marks the start of a new syllable, so you know there should be a invisible vowel in the first syllable, and there no need to write the vowel). The place of the vowel of the second syllable is where you would expect it to be.

I may be reading your post wrong, but สะใภ doesn't follow the rule you mention above (When a high class consonant in one syllable is followed by is by a "vowel-sound" ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant, the vowel ะ is not written.) ส=high class consonant followed by vowel-sound ะ and the first consonant in the next syllable is a low class consonant (ภ)

I'm always looking for i-before-e-except-after-c rules from my Thai teacher, but either she doesn't know very many or there aren't many to know.

Ooops, it's สะใภ้ as in น้องสะใภ้ หรือ พี่สะใภ้

ขอโทษ

[kokesaat]

there are some exceptions:

for instance: อะไร, there no reason why ะ needs to be written.

or words that start with พระ ประ or ระ normally don't loose their ะ

Also many words with สะ just have to be remembered.

I personally think it's better not to study all these rules. You will learn to recognize them when you read a lot. Beside that, there are a lot of exceptions.

When there's more exceptions than the rule, I agree. On the other hand, knowing that words like รถ นก พราก or ประ never take tone markers is a rule that my mind seems to easily understand when I'm trying to write words. Anything that helps my mind work through the maze is okay with me.

[tgeezer]

there are some exceptions:

for instance: อะไร, there no reason why ะ needs to be written.

or words that start with พระ ประ or ระ normally don't loose their ะ

I personally think it's better not to study all these rules. You will learn to recognize them when you read a lot. Beside that, there are a lot of exceptions.

Surely when you need to know you just look it up. How else can you know whether ฤ is รึ, ริ, or เรอ, we are advised to '....ฝึกสังเกตอ่าน และจดจำไว้....

[chinnotes]

Well, I want to thank you all for your contributions. The answers seem to say that there are certain rules, but they are complicated... and if I understand it right there are certain exceptions to these rules...

Again, thank you very much

Erwin