Plz Help Me With My Question

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm a little bit less fatalistic than you, Loaded- we may indeed be very contingent guests- but we also bring something of value (exactly what value can be debated- but even if it's only PR value there's some kind of value there or we wouldn't have been brought in)- and therefore what we say and do can be influential, if it is said and done in the right way. I *don't* think we should just give up and shut up. It's not the only thing to do and it's not the right thing to do. But speaking has to be done with a certain.... flair (not to say sensitivity).

Oh, and there's still that matter of in loco parentis, and think of the children, and so forth... some good *could* come of our contact with them.

[Loaded]

I think if you have an understanding of the system, then you can formulate your own plans to work within this system to satisfy your own personal goals. I didn't want to come across as fatalistic as this has a far too negative connotation, but the reality of living and working here isn't the reality we're used to coming from western societies.

I have reached the point before where I felt that I was just pissing into the wind. But, I readjusted the way I looked at things. It's not my responsibility to decide what changes Thailand and its education system need. I'm not qualified academically or culturally to make these decisions, but I do know what I can do within the current system. I'm far less frustrated now and have a positive attitude living and working here. When I get to the point where I feel angry because of the 'way' Thailand does things, I'm only punishing myself.

IMO

Edited February 27, 2008 by Loaded

[CosmicSurfer]

I believe this board is a very cathartic experience for you.

However, you keep mentioning the 'problem' and I keep saying maybe the 'problem' isn't a problem for Thais but only for you and a few other guests. Let me present an analogy: Palestinians think the West Bank is theirs by right of International law. Israelis think the West Bank is theirs by right of history. Both sides think the other side is wrong and can't believe the other side could be so intransigent. Your case is a little different as on one side you have Thailand, its people, culture, history and on the other side just you and a few foreign guests.

Honestly, Thailand won't miss you (or me) when you (we) leave. We are insignificant in the scheme of things here.

Sorry if I left your comments about being a "Guest" hanging, but I was out earning a few Baht... But I'm back now.

In order to not Hi-Jack this Thread, I've decided it was a better idea to respond in a separate thread.. I'm sure you'll find it.

But I will address your Comments about the Palestinians and the Israelis.. Which as a "Middle-East studies major" I feel very qualified to give an educated response to....

If you think you can define the Palestinian/Israeli problem with a few short sentences you're about as informed about that situation as you care about the teaching of English to Thai people, or to the Society you have chosen to grace with your presence...

I don't believe that I'm alone in caring about this place that I call home... I bet the majority of Teachers that are here for reasons other then drinking beer and getting laid also care about improving the situation here. Thailand certainly won't miss THOSE people when they Leave... (Thank you John Mark Carr)..

But as for the rest of those dedicated teachers that Aren't here for the Nightlife only.. They will never be "insignificant in the scheme of things here." They are all that stands between Thailand and the 3rd World that it so recently left.. and that it is slowly sliding back into.

But but I'm sure that when push comes to shove, and when the Thais finally wake up and realizes just how bad a deal that they have been getting from their "Caring" leadership, they will decide that it's time to make changes. And as a caring and serious teacher.. I'll be right back here ready to help, but until then.. and I don't believe that it will happen in what's left of my lifetime or before "hel_l Freezes Over" (whichever comes first) I'll just mossy on down the road at first opportunity... Pull up stakes and head for more fertile parts.

But rest assured.. I'll be around for a while longer to be kicked around, as I try a raise the necessary wherewithal... So the games will continue.

CS

[aussiestyle1983]

I believe this board is a very cathartic experience for you.

However, you keep mentioning the 'problem' and I keep saying maybe the 'problem' isn't a problem for Thais but only for you and a few other guests. Let me present an analogy: Palestinians think the West Bank is theirs by right of International law. Israelis think the West Bank is theirs by right of history. Both sides think the other side is wrong and can't believe the other side could be so intransigent. Your case is a little different as on one side you have Thailand, its people, culture, history and on the other side just you and a few foreign guests.

Honestly, Thailand won't miss you (or me) when you (we) leave. We are insignificant in the scheme of things here.

Sorry if I left your comments about being a "Guest" hanging, but I was out earning a few Baht... But I'm back now.

In order to not Hi-Jack this Thread, I've decided it was a better idea to respond in a separate thread.. I'm sure you'll find it.

But I will address your Comments about the Palestinians and the Israelis.. Which as a "Middle-East studies major" I feel very qualified to give an educated response to....

If you think you can define the Palestinian/Israeli problem with a few short sentences you're about as informed about that situation as you care about the teaching of English to Thai people, or to the Society you have chosen to grace with your presence...

I don't believe that I'm alone in caring about this place that I call home... I bet the majority of Teachers that are here for reasons other then drinking beer and getting laid also care about improving the situation here. Thailand certainly won't miss THOSE people when they Leave... (Thank you John Mark Carr)..

But as for the rest of those dedicated teachers that Aren't here for the Nightlife only.. They will never be "insignificant in the scheme of things here." They are all that stands between Thailand and the 3rd World that it so recently left.. and that it is slowly sliding back into.

But but I'm sure that when push comes to shove, and when the Thais finally wake up and realizes just how bad a deal that they have been getting from their "Caring" leadership, they will decide that it's time to make changes. And as a caring and serious teacher.. I'll be right back here ready to help, but until then.. and I don't believe that it will happen in what's left of my lifetime or before "hel_l Freezes Over" (whichever comes first) I'll just mossy on down the road at first opportunity... Pull up stakes and head for more fertile parts.

But rest assured.. I'll be around for a while longer to be kicked around, as I try a raise the necessary wherewithal... So the games will continue.

CS

Cosmic is spot on. The Thai's won't admit they miss us because they are good at trying to save face, regardless of it's affect. However, with multinational coorporations taking over the world, Thailand needs to have a higher English proficiency level than it currentlly has in order to develop further in economic terms. The Thai's can't teach themselves English, let alone do it correctly. If all the English teachers pissed off out of Thailand I think anyone who believes it would be insignificant is day dreaming. English is the only tool some Thais have to better their life, get better jobs, leave the corrupt country, etc. Even though Thailand is a dodgy and corrupt country that is riddeled with problems, English will always help the country improve and give hope to some people who can take advantage of their new acquired language skill.

BTW: Also, if the teachers left, especially the ones on high salaries, the bar girl industry would be out of business

[PeaceBlondie]

If 36.9% of the best native teachers of English left the Kingdom tonight, the best schools would be sorely understaffed. But otherwise, the good teachers' departure would go unnoticed because it doesn't show up on national radar, even at the MoE. If they honestly don't think they need us, then by definition they don't need us. Thailand, by its own definition, does not need the 21st century; therefore it will not enter it..

[wangsuda]

Thailand doesn't need the 20th century either -555-

[aussiestyle1983]

or the 19th for that matter

[Ijustwannateach]

Getting back for a moment to the OP ('cause I hadn't posted an answer yet), my honest assessment is:

Thailand's educated population functions far below international standards of English as a foreign/second language. However, this is NOT for the same reasons that, for example, Japan's population is also far below international standards (and the reasons are important). Japan is far behind because their model for education in general is simply not suited to language teaching, possibly even for the Japanese language- grammar-translation doesn't work generally, and when it does the results are more frightening than communicative.

Thailand is far behind because education in general is so far behind and because the lack of standards (as demonstrated by eliminating the ability of students to fail and be properly ranked) in a supposedly grade-based system has led largely to lazy mediocrity even among the best students- and since they are sheltered by the Thai system they have no idea how they compare with other international communities their own age (and they would be well shocked if they did!)

I have known a few well-educated Thais who grew up as residents in Thailand and speak English fairly proficiently- but even their best proficiency is probably at about the average level for similar demographic groups in other non-English-speaking countries (except Japan).

"S"

[CosmicSurfer]

Thailand is far behind because education in general is so far behind and because the lack of standards (as demonstrated by eliminating the ability of students to fail and be properly ranked) in a supposedly grade-based system has led largely to lazy mediocrity even among the best students- and since they are sheltered by the Thai system they have no idea how they compare with other international communities their own age (and they would be well shocked if they did!)

I have known a few well-educated Thais who grew up as residents in Thailand and speak English fairly proficiently- but even their best proficiency is probably at about the average level for similar demographic groups in other non-English-speaking countries (except Japan).

"S"

As I keep saying.. It's ingrained into the culture...

Without a complete overhaul of the system, including cultural support, sorely lacking at this time, Progress will never happen.

So we are just flogging a Dead horse.

CS

[aussiestyle1983]

Thailand is far behind because education in general is so far behind and because the lack of standards (as demonstrated by eliminating the ability of students to fail and be properly ranked) in a supposedly grade-based system has led largely to lazy mediocrity even among the best students- and since they are sheltered by the Thai system they have no idea how they compare with other international communities their own age (and they would be well shocked if they did!)

I have known a few well-educated Thais who grew up as residents in Thailand and speak English fairly proficiently- but even their best proficiency is probably at about the average level for similar demographic groups in other non-English-speaking countries (except Japan).

"S"

As I keep saying.. It's ingrained into the culture...

Without a complete overhaul of the system, including cultural support, sorely lacking at this time, Progress will never happen.

So we are just flogging a Dead horse.

CS

No only do dead horses gets flogged in regards to LOS

[phosamton]

Just to touch on this idea that you have to be able to speak Thai a little to teach English effectively. My CELTA training stressed beyond anything that all teaching, even beginning, be done only in English. As this a Cambridge based training program that as far as I know is the most highly respected "certificate" worldwide, I believe it, and when I taught mixed nationalities in San Francisco, they all were focused and using only English.

this semester I taught 3 groups of freshman (government uni) students. Class sizes were 11, 18, and 13. Wow, talk about easy. For 2 hours each session these students only spoke English, did it happily, and made some progress. I was able to introduce vocab, do some drills, and turn them loose in pairs or small groups. Just like my training prepared me for. So, I think class size must be a major factor.

I think there's more to it than teachers students and the system.

Sorry if this sounds Westernly judgmental but...doesn't the thirst for knowledge start with parenting? I asked every single student this semester if they talk about the political events of that past 1.5 years with their families. 90% said no. Not even the new constitution (this was just before Dec 24)? No. Trying not to judge through Western eyes, but merely observe and (try to) understand, I have to say this is an example of why students aren't more inquisitive. many Thais have told me that as children when they ask "why", they are told to keep quiet.

Finally, everybody, you're doing this for the students right? My two farang colleagues and myself are easily the most popular (and yes, respected) teachers in our department. Two good friends of mine teaching for an MEP at a government mathyom have a similar realtionship with their students, who were balling their eyes out when they found out the farang were getting shafted on salaries/benefits/everything and going to leave. And guess what? When the Thai admin lied to the students about the reasons for the exodus, the students went to the farang and asked them directly, (just like those sneaky white guys taught them to. The students chose to believe the farang.

So...don't despair, their are a few Thais who love us and are happy to have us teaching here.

[Unfaithful]

I say to the original poster, if you are Thai and you wish to think the sun rises and sets only on Thailand, then only use Thai criteria to judge Thai education.But you had best leave sunny old England soon, before you know better.

My international students ask the neatest questions, that the brainest Thais seldom asked.They want to learn; their non-Thai culture requires them to learn; their homes are lined with book shelves full of books they all read; even the six year olds read long stories (comic cartoon style) in their native language.None of them, of course, intends to stay in Thailand after secondary.Okay, one football player is thinking of dropping out by going to some uni in Bankgok.

Thailand is for the Thais, incoluding its educational system, no matter how rotten it is.And all my non-Thai Asian students arrived having learned the story of the emperor's new clothes.

[Petch01]

I say to the original poster, if you are Thai and you wish to think the sun rises and sets only on Thailand, then only use Thai criteria to judge Thai education.But you had best leave sunny old England soon, before you know better.

My international students ask the neatest questions, that the brainest Thais seldom asked.They want to learn; their non-Thai culture requires them to learn; their homes are lined with book shelves full of books they all read; even the six year olds read long stories (comic cartoon style) in their native language.None of them, of course, intends to stay in Thailand after secondary.Okay, one football player is thinking of dropping out by going to some uni in Bankgok.

Thailand is for the Thais, incoluding its educational system, no matter how rotten it is.And all my non-Thai Asian students arrived having learned the story of the emperor's new clothes.

You must be Dutch or .................German.

Wake up! Petch01