Pestered By A Monk

[soundman]

Yesterday, whilst driving to work, a monk tried to hail down my car. I stopped to see what he wanted. He wanted a lift to somewhere many kilometers away. Giving a monk a lift somewhere is a fairly normal occurence - if it is somwhere near where you are going in the first place.

Since the destination was well out of my way - I politely declined to give him a lift. The monk then did something very surprising, he became rather agitated & started pestering me to give him a lift.

My TW, sitting beside me, told me to ignore him and drive off. I followed her advice.

However, it got me thinking...

Should monks be able to exhibit this kind of behavior, is it bad for Thai people to ignore a monk's request & should I have driven him to where he wanted to go?

Your thoughts.

Soundman.

[Momo8]

Assuming he was really a monk of course.

I was approached by a monk not so long back who handed me a piece of paper with a Buddha image on it then demanded HK$500 because he said it was some kind of blessing.Well I handed it back and told him I was blessed enough already.Never heard of monks harassing motorists,you shouldn't have stopped.

[Who, me ?]

In such a situation, I'd listen to my Thai Wife as well ! She knows better than me what is suitable to do in such a situation.

It is very surprising to see a monk to react like you say. How old was he ? Do you have he feeling he was a "life long" monk, or was he a young guy being a monk for a few days ?

[Neeranam]

Never stop for monks - often they are just dressing up as one and will rob you.

[Samuian]

Well, like neeranam already states it could be a fake, but highly unlikely.

But a saffron or orange robe declares that this person has entered the monkhood, it doesn't say ANYTHING about the person!

people to take on the robe for various reasons - they are not always to attain sainthood or disappear in Nirvana....!

[soundman]

In such a situation, I'd listen to my Thai Wife as well ! She knows better than me what is suitable to do in such a situation.

It is very surprising to see a monk to react like you say. How old was he ? Do you have he feeling he was a "life long" monk, or was he a young guy being a monk for a few days ?

Asked my wife why - & she replied that she really didn't like monks.

The monk was about 50 years old - looked like the real deal. This is the part that took me by surprise. Could have been a fake - but I didn't think so.

[ashacat]

When my parents came to visit me a couple of years back, we were sitting outside a cafe in Silom when some "monk" came up and started pestering us for money in return for some "blessing" or some such crap. He had a serious attitude and got really aggresive when we declined. I seriously hope that he wasn't a "real" monk.

I thought monks weren't allowed to handle money anyway?...

[Who, me ?]

In such a situation, I'd listen to my Thai Wife as well ! She knows better than me what is suitable to do in such a situation.

It is very surprising to see a monk to react like you say. How old was he ? Do you have he feeling he was a "life long" monk, or was he a young guy being a monk for a few days ?

Asked my wife why - & she replied that she really didn't like monks.

The monk was about 50 years old - looked like the real deal. This is the part that took me by surprise. Could have been a fake - but I didn't think so.

Maybe he had a bad day then.....

[Cuban]

Do you have he feeling he was a "life long" monk, or was he a young guy being a monk for a few days ?

This was my first reaction to the question, men at any age can spend as little as a few days even "playing" monk getting their head shaven and dressing up in orange.

Considering it is a big Bhudda Day today (Makha Bucha), it fits that the guy could just be a short time monk to be monk on that particular day to make merit.

[Neeranam]

When my parents came to visit me a couple of years back, we were sitting outside a cafe in Silom when some "monk" came up and started pestering us for money in return for some "blessing" or some such crap. He had a serious attitude and got really aggresive when we declined. I seriously hope that he wasn't a "real" monk.

I thought monks weren't allowed to handle money anyway?...

I've met a lot of fake monks around silom. I'm good at sussing out the conmen as I used to be one myself many years ago.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Neeranam

[Samuian]

I'm good at sussing out the conmen as I used to be one myself many years ago.

That helps!

Many Westerners have a wrong concept about the Monkhood - they are - after all ONLY human beings!

[PadThaiGuy]

It is a Land of Scams. Getting worse lately.

I was driving out in the countryside recently and saw 3 Monks that flagged me down.

I stopped, rolled down the window and they asked for 500thb!

Also.... I've been seeing the fake "ladymonks" posted all over town with the "fake beggars" and another group of fake monks are trolling on Sukhumvit and Silom..

...and the "fake studets" still doing the "survey are still out there harrassing tourists.

O yea,..and the "fake friendly" people at practically every intersecting giving "fake advice" to travelers. http://www.flickr.com/photos/21533131@N06/

[Momo8]

So Neeranam what's the object of being a fake monk if you are a farang?Were you in it for the money or the chicks?

Edited February 21, 2008 by Momo8

[soundman]

So Neeranam what's the object of being a fake monk if you are a farang?Were you in it for the money or the chicks?

Judging from his avatar - definately the chicks.

anyway...

How would one recognise a "fake" monk? I am also under the impression that to fake being among is a very serious offence in Thailand.

[shoewah]

The other day my Thai friend told me a monk stabbed another monk at the market, they were arguing over a spot for begging.

[submaniac]

"Real" monks do not do that, plain and simple, they are not supposed to "demand" anything, but only take what is offered and given to them. For example their morning alms of food/food bowl. A monk is prohibited from asking for any particular item of food, but must accept whatever is offered to him. Notice that the people giving the food to the monks also do NOT 'ask' what the monk wants (they probably would be more than happy to give what he asks) but they know it is not proper for the monk to ask.

Keep in mind there are many 'temporary' monks. If you have seen the pictures you know that the King was a monk temporarily for a while. Many men in Thailand make merit by becoming a monk for a short period of time. It is actually a requirement. It is a Thai belief that if a mother has a son who becomes a monk, then her sins are forgiven, and when she dies, she is lead to heaven on a monk's robe. Hence, it is custom for a Thai man to become a monk for a few days prior to getting married, in order to clear his mother's sins. If he becomes a monk after getting married, the wife gets the sins forgiven.

Edited February 21, 2008 by submaniac

[jitagon]

In my experience, pretty much all Thai monks are 'fake' - from my spouse's son constantly calling from his wat on his mobile 'phone asking for money - to a rather corpulent aging monk getting angry at being made to wait in line to buy a ticket from Thai Airways, the same as the rest of us. And how can I forget the sight of a very elderly skinny monk down on his haunches trying to rip open a case of large beer Chang, with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth at Sanam Luang

[submaniac]

I've met a lot of fake monks around silom. I'm good at sussing out the conmen as I used to be one myself many years ago.

"Used to be one" what? Conman? or Monk?

[Heng]

Pepper spray.

[Momo8]

Nice explanation Sub but why get married if you want to become a monk in the first place?

My belief is if it's a fake monk then you should give fake money! You guys in Thailand get scalped for 500 baht, going rate here is HK$500 go figure.As to spotting a fake monk,well there are the ones who talk on their mobile phones to their mates on the next block.Not being disrespectful or anything but there was a story some time ago about 'real' monks with wigs and painted eyebrows who descended into Pattaya for a bit of fun.

Wonder if they were defrocked?

From bad to worse

' cases involve sex, not money. One monk, Thammathorn Wanchai, tried to cover up his tracks by masquerading as a Special Forces colonel before proceeding to his trysts with paid women. In October 2000, however, he was filmed driving his Mercedes Benz out of his temple at night, stopping to don a uniform of the special warfare command with Army insignias and pulling up at a house where two women later arrived in a taxi.

Monks have also shown violent behavior, as in the case of Phra Maha Sayan Jirasupho, who in May ran amuck at the parliament building. He even wielded an AK-47 during his rampage, which he said was to protest his alleged mistreatment by the Chantoburi police. He was later charged with illegal possession of firearms and for firing a gun.

The monk had been arrested earlier for allegedly trespassing in a forest reserve during a pilgrimage. He claimed the police forced a confession out of him by attacking and stripping him.' from http://www.seapabkk.org/newdesign/fellowsh...etail.php?No=57

[soundman]

"Real" monks do not do that, plain and simple, they are not supposed to "demand" anything, but only take what is offered and given to them. For example their morning alms of food/food bowl. A monk is prohibited from asking for any particular item of food, but must accept whatever is offered to him. Notice that the people giving the food to the monks also do NOT 'ask' what the monk wants (they probably would be more than happy to give what he asks) but they know it is not proper for the monk to ask.

Keep in mind there are many 'temporary' monks. If you have seen the pictures you know that the King was a monk temporarily for a while. Many men in Thailand make merit by becoming a monk for a short period of time. It is actually a requirement. It is a Thai belief that if a mother has a son who becomes a monk, then her sins are forgiven, and when she dies, she is lead to heaven on a monk's robe. Hence, it is custom for a Thai man to become a monk for a few days prior to getting married, in order to clear his mother's sins. If he becomes a monk after getting married, the wife gets the sins forgiven.

I think the issue of "temporary" monks is quite important to take into consideration. My brother in law was a temporary monk (booat phraa). He was supposed to do this for three months, lasted ten days and came home everyday for breakfast and evening meal, as well as, wasting his time on the playstation.

This monk that was pestering me didn't look temporary though. Fairly easy to tell with the worn yellow tunic & dirty alms bag.

It appears to me that monks who don't perform the duties of monkhood faithfully are not held accountable for their actions & there appears to be a rating system.

Whenever one takes on a new property, or business venture - a blessing by the monks is normal. You request, from the temple or association which you are dealing with, which monks you want present amongst other things during the "negotiations".

BTW submaniac - may I ask a question. Maybe I am wrong, however I am under the impression that you have a Thai background, growing up in a foreign country. If so, were you brought up in close contact with monks and temples, such as most Thai's are? If not, do you hold the idea of "phraa" in the same esteem as most Thai's do? Sorry, just questions from a purely inquisative point of view..

Cheers,

Soundman.

[zaza]

Yesterday, whilst driving to work, a monk tried to hail down my car. I stopped to see what he wanted. He wanted a lift to somewhere many kilometers away. Giving a monk a lift somewhere is a fairly normal occurence - if it is somwhere near where you are going in the first place.

Since the destination was well out of my way - I politely declined to give him a lift. The monk then did something very surprising, he became rather agitated & started pestering me to give him a lift.

My TW, sitting beside me, told me to ignore him and drive off. I followed her advice.

However, it got me thinking...

Should monks be able to exhibit this kind of behavior, is it bad for Thai people to ignore a monk's request & should I have driven him to where he wanted to go?

Your thoughts.

Soundman.

Am sorry Soundman; I have to be sincere honest with you by confronting with what will happen to you:

Did you hear him mumble something?

Son !you are doomed now : Start counting your last few living days on earth.......

Come on ! he is just a human of flesh and blood like us, so it is your total right to accept or::: refuse any request politely using gentle courtesy apology regarding his status and age .

[Samuian]

What was the name of the "famous" monk, with many female followers from the "Hi-So", who (supposedly) sold his pee for up to 20.000 a bottle - got 'done' while the credit cards given to him by followers for a missionary trip to NZ, produced some eyebrow raising bills from, well you know "Entertainment Venues", where it's all about selling sex...then he was disrobed, went to the US, where he had a large fellowship of supporters and was later somewhat involved in a fatal car crash after which he was extradited - since he moved to Cambodia - no more news lately!

the other guy (monk) who was an abbot, in the evenings he posed as some high ranking military officer, was regularly picked up by a large Mercedes Benz Limousine, driven to a Villa, where 2 females opened the Gates... he was caught with hidden camera in the early days of ITV... when he was arrested, he was still wearing the orange kind of Monks Underwear underneath his uniform!

The other Nonthaburi abbot who got shot over a multy million Baht dispute ... he controlled the Taxi Motorcyclists in front of the Tempel....

The 2 who came regularly in laymens clothes to a "Karaoke" Bar... the girls wondered why the were bald and had their eyebrows shaven....

the monk who killed a student girl in Kanchanaburi province... and dumped her in the garbage dump...

they Hi-So "guy" who wants this enormous tempel build with buddha statues in the rim of the dome made of kilos of 24K Gold...

How come, many of them have such incredible wealth accumulated...

Lung Por Khun - highly revered monk gave a couple of years ago a 72 Million Baht cheque to the king...

[klikster]

I was sitting at the bar in the Golden Bar (Nana Hotel) one day and watched a policeman tell a "Bhuddist nun"/lookalike to take a hike after she solicited money from some folks near the sidewalk. From her blush, it looked as if he was giving her a scolding.

I think good Buddhists want monks and nuns to be monks and nuns .. not con artists.

Edited February 21, 2008 by klikster

[soundman]

Am sorry Soundman; I have to be sincere honest with you by confronting with what will happen to you:

Did you hear him mumble something?

<snip>

Son !you are doomed now : Start counting your last few living days on earth.......

Come on ! he is just a human of flesh and blood like us, so it is your total right to accept or::: refuse any request politely using gentle courtesy apology regarding his status and age .

Thanx for the "scroll" excercise zaza.

You bring up a point though.

If a priest in full regalia was trying to wave one down in your (assuming christian for arguments sake) country, would one basically tell hime where to go or would one seriously consider his inconvenient request?

Soundman.

[Momo8]

It just goes to show that religion and education have much in common.

Just takes a few corrupt individuals to give the whole shinding a bad name....and don't get started on Catholic priests.

[dominator]

I believe that just about all Thai males enter the mookhood in their late teens/early twenties to do their stint. This is why all Thai males over the age of about 25 are good, honest, law biding,saintly characters.

You never hear any in that age group commiting any form of crime, recklessly driving etc,etc.

After doing their stint in the temple they are totally transformed from how they may have been before.

I think you will find, if you look closely, that so called males commiting any crimes, are in fact ladies dressed up. Some of the more serious ones even attach the cast off 'bits' from ladyboys, to make them look more authentic. I think it's because Thai ladies want us farangs to believe their men folk have a reputation to hold to !!!!!!!

[submaniac]

BTW submaniac - may I ask a question. Maybe I am wrong, however I am under the impression that you have a Thai background, growing up in a foreign country. If so, were you brought up in close contact with monks and temples, such as most Thai's are? If not, do you hold the idea of "phraa" in the same esteem as most Thai's do? Sorry, just questions from a purely inquisative point of view..

Cheers,

Soundman.

Don't worry about the question, nothing wrong with being inquisitive. The answer is I had no choice and was constantly being dragged to temples when I was growing up, so I am familiar with the experience. Every place i lived there was some type of Thai commuity. In North Dakota, there was no true "temple", but there were local monks who pretty much lived in houses and used that as a temple. In Arizona, I went to the temple outside of Phoenix, where a famous shooting happened (one of the sons of a congregation member tried to rob the temple, and lined the monks in the "wheel of life" configuration and shot them in the head). In Los Angeles, Thai town has about 200,000 Thais and temples are everywhere. The one I go to is the one in Cerritos. Beautiful temple, looks just like the ones in Thailand--except the grounds are cleaner. So, yes I am very familiar with the customs and practices. It's sort of the same as those in the West...your mother drags you to church every Sunday, you go. And after a while you 'get it' in terms of the customs and practices. So I am very familiar with Monks and Buddhism, as it were.

And yes, I will have to become a temporary monk before I marry (of course I do not have anyone in mind of marrying at this point so it is kind of far off). Even the King himself was not exempt, so I do not feel that lowly me should be able to get out of it. I would probably opt for the way of your brother in law, a few days, or as little as I can get away with. It's pretty much understood that the 'temp' monks are not real monks, but there is respect given that these are men acting out of their duty.

Hope that helps!

[Momo8]

Yeah right so a 'pretend' monk is better than a 'fake' monk?

[soundman]

BTW submaniac - may I ask a question. Maybe I am wrong, however I am under the impression that you have a Thai background, growing up in a foreign country. If so, were you brought up in close contact with monks and temples, such as most Thai's are? If not, do you hold the idea of "phraa" in the same esteem as most Thai's do? Sorry, just questions from a purely inquisative point of view..

Cheers,

Soundman.

Don't worry about the question, nothing wrong with being inquisitive. The answer is I had no choice and was constantly being dragged to temples when I was growing up, so I am familiar with the experience. Every place i lived there was some type of Thai commuity. In North Dakota, there was no true "temple", but there were local monks who pretty much lived in houses and used that as a temple. In Arizona, I went to the temple outside of Phoenix, where a famous shooting happened (one of the sons of a congregation member tried to rob the temple, and lined the monks in the "wheel of life" configuration and shot them in the head). In Los Angeles, Thai town has about 200,000 Thais and temples are everywhere. The one I go to is the one in Cerritos. Beautiful temple, looks just like the ones in Thailand--except the grounds are cleaner. So, yes I am very familiar with the customs and practices. It's sort of the same as those in the West...your mother drags you to church every Sunday, you go. And after a while you 'get it' in terms of the customs and practices. So I am very familiar with Monks and Buddhism, as it were.

And yes, I will have to become a temporary monk before I marry (of course I do not have anyone in mind of marrying at this point so it is kind of far off). Even the King himself was not exempt, so I do not feel that lowly me should be able to get out of it. I would probably opt for the way of your brother in law, a few days, or as little as I can get away with. It's pretty much understood that the 'temp' monks are not real monks, but there is respect given that these are men acting out of their duty.

Hope that helps!

Thanx for taking the time to reply to that.

Most of the "Thai's abroad" in Melbourne (large Thai expat community - mainly students) I have known rarely spent any time going to the one or two temples in town.

Cheers.