Sinsot Question (yet Another One)

[BlueFeb]

Hi all, I would like to get some opinions about this situation I'm in. I've read the other posts about this but didn't see a similar case.

I've been dating a Thai girl for the past 1 year, a late 20's (I'm mid 30's), university graduate with a decent office job. Originally from Phuket but living with her parents and sister now in Bangkok. We've started talking over the last couple of weeks about possible wedding and the issue of sinsod came up. After a few discussions and her talking to her parents to "feel the ground" it turns out they want to put on display 400K and return back to me 200K. The family isn't rich, normal working class and both retired. She's never been married / no kids. I myself am not rich either, I've got a small business that's making a decent living but not large amounts of extra cash.

I did a bit of research online about this before they came up with the figures and they kindda surprised me, I was expecting maybe half of that. So I told her I'm not able or prepared to pay this amount at the moment and it sounds too high to me. She took it quite badly, saying things like she already negotiated down with them as they wanted more, that I don't respect the culture, that her parents deserve these amounts for taking care of her, that I just wanted to take advantage, that normal Thai guys are able to pay these amounts so how come I won't and other stuff like that. At the end I said I'll need to think about it and I can't reply either way on the spot but she already got into her mind that I don't and won't pay anything (I admit I do find this custom very difficult to stomach but I told her I will pay some amount but not this amount). It had a bad effect on her as she was genuinely crying her eyes out. She then packed her stuff from my apartment and left saying she won't be able to stay over and I can have my time to think about it. It looks like it may be a deal breaker.

Besides this incident the relationship has gone extremely well, we spend a lot of time together and seem compatible in every other sense. I've met her parents several times and other family members and have always gotten along great despite language barrier. I'm worried I might be making a mistake both handling the situation and in my attitude towards it.

Would really appreciate some advice on this.

[sbk]

Decent families don't keep the sin sot, not even half, but return the full amount to the newlyweds to start their new life off with. It is not money paid to the family for having raised a daughter but money the man uses to show that he is capable of taking care of his wife.

[Maigo6]

Would really appreciate some advice on this.

Jeez, if you can't afford 200,000 Baht, then how can you expect to keep a wife and possibly children in the future?

For her sake just let her go, she may meet a man who is more sympathetic to her way of life, as obviously your are not.

Many Thai guys show more money than you are asked to show.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Maigo6

[dee123]

....sinsod.......you lot just don't get it !!..do you.......its does not apply to farangs as when their turn comes for receiving sin sod they don't receive a penny........just get your heads round that please....!!

[kolasaab]

Hi all, I would like to get some opinions about this situation I'm in. I've read the other posts about this but didn't see a similar case.

I've been dating a Thai girl for the past 1 year, a late 20's (I'm mid 30's), university graduate with a decent office job. Originally from Phuket but living with her parents and sister now in Bangkok. We've started talking over the last couple of weeks about possible wedding and the issue of sinsod came up. After a few discussions and her talking to her parents to "feel the ground" it turns out they want to put on display 400K and return back to me 200K. The family isn't rich, normal working class and both retired. She's never been married / no kids. I myself am not rich either, I've got a small business that's making a decent living but not large amounts of extra cash.

I did a bit of research online about this before they came up with the figures and they kindda surprised me, I was expecting maybe half of that. So I told her I'm not able or prepared to pay this amount at the moment and it sounds too high to me. She took it quite badly, saying things like she already negotiated down with them as they wanted more, that I don't respect the culture, that her parents deserve these amounts for taking care of her, that I just wanted to take advantage, that normal Thai guys are able to pay these amounts so how come I won't and other stuff like that. At the end I said I'll need to think about it and I can't reply either way on the spot but she already got into her mind that I don't and won't pay anything (I admit I do find this custom very difficult to stomach but I told her I will pay some amount but not this amount). It had a bad effect on her as she was genuinely crying her eyes out. She then packed her stuff from my apartment and left saying she won't be able to stay over and I can have my time to think about it. It looks like it may be a deal breaker.

Besides this incident the relationship has gone extremely well, we spend a lot of time together and seem compatible in every other sense. I've met her parents several times and other family members and have always gotten along great despite language barrier. I'm worried I might be making a mistake both handling the situation and in my attitude towards it.

Would really appreciate some advice on this.

Hi when i spoke to my thai lady friend about this sin sot stuff, she told me that when her son got married last year she and her son negotiated with the inlaws a sum of 90,000bht and he"s got a fairly good job in bk

[BlueFeb]

sbk - ok, are you then saying I should stand my ground on this or walk away or something else?

Maigo6 - I guess it's more a of finding it difficult to accept than really being able to afford. Not everything I can afford I also want to. I think I was also taken aback by the speed this escalated to a do or die situation.

dee123 - So does that mean you believe that sinsod should be refused outright?

kolasaab - thanks, I'm not sure where her parents got their figures from, she mentioned some neightbours and other family members raise relatively large amounts so there's a lot of "face" involved.

[dee123]

....in Scotland they have an ancient tradition "creeling the bridegroom" ...where the groom has to walk through his village with a load of stones on his back, until his bride comes out and kisses him,.......do that instead!!

Edited February 22, 2008 by dee123

[ThaiWanderer68]

Decent families don't keep the sin sot, not even half, but return the full amount to the newlyweds to start their new life off with. It is not money paid to the family for having raised a daughter but money the man uses to show that he is capable of taking care of his wife.

With all due respect to sbk, who is quite knowledgeable about Thailand and her community, she might be correct about her particular community, but the practice does vary enormously across Thailand. I have known familes keep it all, some have returned it all, and some have done as in the case of OP of paying more and returning part as a compromise. Some parents invest it in one way or another for the benefit of the couple.

In addition 400k is not an unreasonable sum for a girl from a good family. The first Thai wedding I ever went to about 9 years ago had a similar amount, from Thai to Thai. So half that could be a fair compromise.

The best option is really to have a senior Thai negotiate and discuss on your behalf.

No doubt you will also hear a lot of doom mongers giving horror stories about Thai ladies. Just bear in mind, there are a lot of negative people on Thai Visa. They are by no means representative of normal people in Thailand. Plenty of guys have successful relationships in Thailand.

If unsure give it more time...

One thing I haven't seen much of, is when a foreign lady marries a Thai. sbk perhaps you could help us on that one. Please note I'm not looking to know numbers, as I consider that very personal to you, but I wonder what happened in your case. This would be very telling as to the extent that Thais expect it to cross cultures.

Edited February 22, 2008 by ThaiWanderer68

[kolasaab]

Hi all, I would like to get some opinions about this situation I'm in. I've read the other posts about this but didn't see a similar case.

I've been dating a Thai girl for the past 1 year, a late 20's (I'm mid 30's), university graduate with a decent office job. Originally from Phuket but living with her parents and sister now in Bangkok. We've started talking over the last couple of weeks about possible wedding and the issue of sinsod came up. After a few discussions and her talking to her parents to "feel the ground" it turns out they want to put on display 400K and return back to me 200K. The family isn't rich, normal working class and both retired. She's never been married / no kids. I myself am not rich either, I've got a small business that's making a decent living but not large amounts of extra cash.

I did a bit of research online about this before they came up with the figures and they kindda surprised me, I was expecting maybe half of that. So I told her I'm not able or prepared to pay this amount at the moment and it sounds too high to me. She took it quite badly, saying things like she already negotiated down with them as they wanted more, that I don't respect the culture, that her parents deserve these amounts for taking care of her, that I just wanted to take advantage, that normal Thai guys are able to pay these amounts so how come I won't and other stuff like that. At the end I said I'll need to think about it and I can't reply either way on the spot but she already got into her mind that I don't and won't pay anything (I admit I do find this custom very difficult to stomach but I told her I will pay some amount but not this amount). It had a bad effect on her as she was genuinely crying her eyes out. She then packed her stuff from my apartment and left saying she won't be able to stay over and I can have my time to think about it. It looks like it may be a deal breaker.

Besides this incident the relationship has gone extremely well, we spend a lot of time together and seem compatible in every other sense. I've met her parents several times and other family members and have always gotten along great despite language barrier. I'm worried I might be making a mistake both handling the situation and in my attitude towards it.

Would really appreciate some advice on this.

Hi when i spoke to my thai lady friend about this sin sot stuff, she told me that when her son got married last year she and her son negotiated with the inlaws a sum of 90,000bht and he"s got a fairly good job in bk

There is a story on stickmans bangkok written by a thai/american guy called "why i never married a thai" you might find it quite interesting

[ThaiWanderer68]

There is a story on stickmans bangkok written by a thai/american guy called "why i never married a thai" you might find it quite interesting

Go ahead and read it, but take Stickman with a pinch of salt. He has some rather dubious interests in what he writes. He also attracts a large follwing of a particular kind.

[Neeranam]

Just bear in mind, there are a lot of negative people on Thai Visa. They are by no means representative of normal people in Thailand

Meet with the parents and tell them what you have. If they continue to ask for more, they're probably no good.

Most Thai people don't like farangs let alone allowing their daughters to marry them - they try to get some compensation.

[TheGameJustIs]

no offense OP but you messed this up badly. if you don't want to pay sin sot THAN WHY DID YOU TELL YOUR GF TO GO AND FIND OUT HOW MUCH IT WOULD BE?

you caused her a huge loss of face. if you had no intention of paying you should have kept your mouth shut. now she knows that your word is not good for anything and does not view you as a man she can trust and depend on.

also, if 200K baht is such a big deal than you obviously are not ready for the responsibilities of marriage. do you know how much it costs to give birth to a child or send them to international school?

i will not pay sin sot and i will make that clear up front to my future wife. there will be no pussyfooting around about it and no negotiating. if her parents want to know that i can take care of her i think my car/house will be indications.

your most important thing is your word, sad to say this but i dont know how you will make this up except to tell her you are going to pay 500k instead of 400k...

good luck and i recommending thinking before you open your mouth in the future.

[dee123]

....can you just tell me why you should pay sinsod........???

[TheGameJustIs]

well it seems like there are two sin sod, one is where the family keeps it and the other is where they give it back.

farangs like it when they get it back because its a beautiful cultural tradition.

when they dont get it back they dislike it because they are an atm for their lucky wife's family who married up.

personally, i dont see myself doing the sin sod thing either way. seems silly.

[dee123]

.....hey at last........a sensible person on Thai visa . com

[BlueFeb]

Thanks all for the comments and feedback.

Indeed I've made some mistakes in handling this out of ignorance. Maybe this post will help others before they commit those mistakes. I think some of the comments here have good advice that wasn't covered or at least I've not seen before.

Just to get back on topic and make things clear for any subsequent comments, this isn't a case about not being able to afford it (or kids, or schools or car etc. etc. thank you for your concern), it is a case of mis-aligned expectations around the appropriate amount, the various flavors of this custom and the process of the negotiation.

Lastly, we're still talking and there's a mutual agreement that we both don't want to throw away what we have over this. So my focus now will be to try and undo some of the damage and find some graceful/reasonable way. Any 'creative' ideas would be welcome.

[dee123]

.....my wife and I still support her elderly parents ,...these days with the help of my wife's grown up kids.......so tell you girlfriend that you understand the trad ,....but these days with farangs its staggered rather than (money and run).....o.k. PS I help my wife's parents cause they are nice people and I want to ,.......and not because of "sinsod"

Edited February 22, 2008 by dee123

[Fun2Fun]

There are usually a reason behind the asked for publicly shown amount, so depending on the reasoning behind the request it can be difficult to get the amount down.

On the other hand the part to be returned back to you after the wedding should be possible to discuss more easily since its a "private/behind closed doors" affair.

[dee123]

......fun2fun....you still speak as if you don't pay sinsod theres no marriage..!!!....forget it friend ,...if you haven't or don't want to give any money ,....thats entirely up to you,......I didn't pay a bean ,...but I,m still married after 15 years ,......please listen to what wer'e saying.!!!

[intumult]

IF you want to make some amends, try and find out, tactfully, where the 200K is going. What are you and your g/f getting from it? Some help with land, house and many other things? In effect, is it worth the 200k?? You might find out it is and be able to tell your g/f you did not fully understand the implications of it all

If it is simply to recompense the parents, is the lady in question worth 200K?

Never married, no kid. Virgin?

OK, OK I know some say and will say you are tight fisted while others will say pay nothing and that you are a fool to pay. It is down to what you feel. 200K may be a bargain, depending on what you are getting for the money, so, before being lambasted either way, talk and find out what you are getting / not getting and then make up your mind.

[dee123]

.....come on guys lets get real......its sounding now like "buying".....a piece of equipment.......the feminists will be on your backs soon,.....

[Khun Jean]

A 'creative' idea would be to say that in your culture it is absolutely not done, and it is seen as buying a wife. Now would she like to get bought or loved and cared for? That is your 'tradition'.

The 'feeling the ground' was unfortunate, it is the western PC thing that you even considered a sinsod.

None of that PC is in the end good here. Softy softy is for another country.

Love, truthfullness (sp) and especially taking care is much more appreciated.

Better to be firm in what you feel/believe in the future and stick to it.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Khun Jean

[dee123]

.......your a star Khun Jean....

[Mahout Angrit]

....can you just tell me why you should pay sinsod........???

When you marry in Thailand, you don't just marry the girl, you marry the whole family. It makes sense to make the whole family happy. She's a never married, no kids graduate. Any ideas how much it has cost to educate that girl? Sounds to me she's worth it. If you don't like the idea of paying you should let her find someone who will pay. There are plenty of girls around whose families will not expect any gift but you may have to travel a bit south where they don't practice the custom......I didn't pay!

I'm surprised you say they are Phuket natives as Phuket families do not usually demand Sin Sod

Edited February 22, 2008 by Mahout Angrit

[TheGameJustIs]

....can you just tell me why you should pay sinsod........???

When you marry in Thailand, you don't just marry the girl, you marry the whole family. It makes sense to make the whole family happy. She's a never married, no kids graduate. Any ideas how much it has cost to educate that girl? Sounds to me she's worth it. If you don't like the idea of paying you should let her find someone who will pay. There are plenty of girls around whose families will not expect any gift but you may have to travel a bit south where they don't practice the custom......I didn't pay!

I'm surprised you say they are Phuket natives as Phuket families do not usually demand Sin Sod

some entrepenuer should start a site where men can bid on Thai women for marriage.

[allexx]

Just bear in mind, there are a lot of negative people on Thai Visa. They are by no means representative of normal people in Thailand

Meet with the parents and tell them what you have. If they continue to ask for more, they're probably no good.

Most Thai people don't like farangs let alone allowing their daughters to marry them - they try to get some compensation.

Spot on Neeranam

[Mossfinn]

Decent families don't keep the sin sot, not even half,

Pretty surprized at this statement SBK, it would suggest that families that have undertaken sin sod, are not decent.

These are two separate quotes taken from two individual posters, pinned at the top of the page, which might suggest that being on the other side of the tracks to being decent, is a little harsh.

"Sin Sod" is the marriage price, the word "Sin" means riches, things of value. In the past it might have been farm animals, farm products, land, or some such. Now money is used as the thing of value. "Sod" is the act of storing away, or holding the "Sin". Long ago it could have been keeping the "Sin" if it was a farm animal in a secure fenced area. Now the "Sin" would be likely stored by depositing the money into a bank. The amount will vary due to several factors such as, the social status and wealth of the parents, the education, age, and beauty of the daughter. The cost of the ceremonies, parties, food, etc., will be paid by the parents using part of the Sin Sod.

And yes - fact it is practised more in the rural communities, where traditions have hung on a bit longer, but its practise has been across the whole Thai social status strata, and it is not limited to certain incoime brackets - so please dont hang onto the "poverty" comparison I have made - the key words are "relivant to the circumstances".

Moss

[Eastender]

Before I met my wife she had an office job and helped her parents out when she could. But then we got married and I took her away to the UK, and that's why I was happy to pay the sinsod and glad her perants kept it. (Her dad is too old to work).

Every case is individual. Too many people post questions on here about 'what figure is acceptable' because they're afraid to be taken for a ride. And too many people post replies because they like to show 'you can't take me for a ride'.

[KireB]

.....come on guys lets get real......its sounding now like "buying".....a piece of equipment.......the feminists will be on your backs soon,.....

Over the years I've met a decent number of farang women married to a Thai. And every time, I popped the question on sin sod.

The rule applies, apparently, only when the Thai side receives and not pays. So much for cultural tradition that is.

Sin Sod does not apply to foreigners! I agree with this. In our multicultural marriages there are two cultures on one pillow. Don't give up on yours so easy!

[seonai]

Certainly no problem with me marrying my 2nd Thai husband in south Thailand. Nothing expected from me ... the family gave me everything. With the First Thai husband... from Issan - different story. The family expected me to pay for everything (Sin Sod) and took it gladly... obviously stereotypes but interesting all the same...