Sinsot Question (yet Another One)

[blizzard]

re to mutcoffee :if u trying to show y sin soot is not required u maybe better leave out the part after the marriage where it seems u dishing out a whole lotta baht.

good 4 you btw.. very kind and generous!

Edited February 24, 2008 by blizzard

[way2muchcoffee]

re to mutcoffee :if u trying to show y sin soot is not required u maybe better leave out the part after the marriage where it seems u dishing out a whole lotta baht.

good 4 you btw.. very kind and generous!

I think I was just offering an alternative to the practice of Sin Sod as it tends to be rather offensive to western sensibilities. Whereas even us callous westerners can understand the need for an emergency medical situation, or preserving the title to the family land, or any number of other things that are sure to come up.

I appreciate the compliment of being 'generous', but it isn't all that generous in my opinion. It is just what anyone with a little cash would do for their families.

[Pierrot]

One thing I never see mentionned is for the wedding the guest are supposed not to offer gifts but to bring "envelopes" containing money that is usually used to pay for the wedding reception. You can then negociate that all the Sin Sod money will be returned to you but you pay for the reception and the family keep the "gifts" from the guest. If the bride come from a good family, it can amount for a couple of hundred thousands.

I chose to pay for the reception, my bils (both Thai) chose the Sin Sod, only half returned. At the end I made the calculation, the parents get about the same from everybody and everybody save face, everybody happy.

[a2396]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

[LoveDaBlues]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

[torrenova]

...... The party has been costed at 100k baht .....

That seems like a heck of a lot. I've been to maybe half a dozen parties in Buriram, two of which were in the family so I know the real figures and there were singers, stage shows, fireworks, limited booze per table, top table with high quality booze, more food than could be eaten and perhaps 100 tables which could accommodate around 500 at a push.

For the two family parties, one a house warming, one for no apparent reason, the net cost after some fairly dismal envelopes both in number and generosity was about 30-35k each time. All bills were presented and settled the following day or two. Each time a westerner was effectively paying. the gross figure was about 70k each time and the total people probably in the mid 200-300's. Around Bt250 to Bt300 per head.

So I suspect your 100k is a better do or for more people but you should envisage some envelopes, perhaps covering half or more depending upon the type of people coming. Busines people, police, politicians and westerners will pony up far more than the Bt100 you might get from a local invitee.

Don't know whether you are aware of this but if not, make sure you are happy with whoever is getting the envelopes.

Funnily enough in Japan, the envelopes are scrutinised on the way into the banquet hall and the cash amount is written in a ledger with the person's name. It is normal there to pay for all the costs you have incurred (the wedding party will pay for trains, planes, hotels etc.) and provide a gift commensurate to your standing and relationship to the happy couple.

[torrenova]

...... The party has been costed at 100k baht .....

That seems like a heck of a lot. I've been to maybe half a dozen parties in Buriram, two of which were in the family so I know the real figures and there were singers, stage shows, fireworks, limited booze per table, top table with high quality booze, more food than could be eaten and perhaps 100 tables which could accommodate around 500 at a push.

For the two family parties, one a house warming, one for no apparent reason, the net cost after some fairly dismal envelopes both in number and generosity was about 30-35k each time. All bills were presented and settled the following day or two. Each time a westerner was effectively paying. the gross figure was about 70k each time and the total people probably in the mid 200-300's. Around Bt250 to Bt300 per head.

So I suspect your 100k is a better do or for more people but you should envisage some envelopes, perhaps covering half or more depending upon the type of people coming. Busines people, police, politicians and westerners will pony up far more than the Bt100 you might get from a local invitee.

Don't know whether you are aware of this but if not, make sure you are happy with whoever is getting the envelopes.

Funnily enough in Japan, the envelopes are scrutinised on the way into the banquet hall and the cash amount is written in a ledger with the person's name. It is normal there to pay for all the costs you have incurred (the wedding party will pay for trains, planes, hotels etc.) and provide a gift commensurate to your standing and relationship to the happy couple.

[KireB]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

I do partly agree with him though.

Sin Sod, or the principle of valuable daughters has created a rather weird sociological effect in this country. Many women, in their 30'ties are single. The pressure on these women is enormous. They are responsible for their families' cash flows. Humane, not?

Why do you think there are so many working girls in this country?

Sin sod stems from a feudal society without much human and financial mobility, and is completely outdated.

It seems to me that everyone here defending this cultural monster, paid up and needs to justify this.

[a2396]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

I do partly agree with him though.

Sin Sod, or the principle of valuable daughters has created a rather weird sociological effect in this country. Many women, in their 30'ties are single. The pressure on these women is enormous. They are responsible for their families' cash flows. Humane, not?

Why do you think there are so many working girls in this country?

Sin sod stems from a feudal society without much human and financial mobility, and is completely outdated.

It seems to me that everyone here defending this cultural monster, paid up and needs to justify this.

Thank you very much. This should have gone by the wayside long ago. Where's the security for the man in this deal, to keep his lovely from ditching him after they collect the cash? That's just one of many downsides to this mess.

[egg6447]

Ok, I do not contribute much to this forum, usually asking questions rather than making comments but this one makes me put pen to paper.

Maybe I missed it but nowhere in this thread have I seen the word “love” mentioned. All cultures are different. In most European cultures, most girls dream from a very early age(usually encouraged by their mothers) of the big white wedding, everybody dressed to the nines(mum spends six weeks shopping for a new hat), horse drawn carriage, reception at a five star location, followed by a honeymoon at some exotic location again all five star. The average mans wants to give all this but really does not understand what all the fuss is about.

As they get older the dream gets modified. They meet someone they “love” and the ugly word money rears its head. At that point love and money clash. Real life begins.

They end up getting married in the registry office followed by a small meal at the local pub with a few friends, no honeymoon because they both have to go back to work to pay the mortgage on the shoebox they have bought to live in.

Why, because they love each other!!!!

By all means pay sinsot, pay for the wedding party, pay for everything, and look after the family, if you can, but the basic question for both sides should be one of love and not how much money. Family pressure in any culture can be terrible but at the end of the day you must decide what is more important, your love for each other or keeping up appearances on the money side.

Maybe you will upset the family but you are the most important people in the equation.

Ok that’s my bit, flame away!!!

as far as reality is concerned, i have to agree with this post,,, note reality. everything else is b/s, never liked b/s since the army

[egg6447]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

ah, at last a man with a axiom of philosophy, no culture problem, a no philosophy, 90% of tv members have no philosophy hence the dribble thats posted and the questions asked

[mark lamai]

just wondering.......

can you make a written enforceable contract about this sinsot,

i.e. how much you pay and how much will be returned (if any).

ahhhhh!!! peace of mind in dealing with thai fems is sooooo elusive.......

[Heng]

Just have someone from your party waiting to take hold of the cash in the back room.

[dee123]

If you're living together, why not just avoid the subject for a while? If marriage is necessary for visa the go to the registry office, takes about 1 hr. Explain due to the low US$ you don't have the funds, so it'll have to wait. Everybody talks about Thais paying sin sot, but from what I see most just live together.

I'm still curious as to whether a Thai man has ever offered sin sot when marrying a farang woman?

well as it stands sbk didn't and senoai didn't.......so your curiosity will have to wait a bit longer....

[LoveDaBlues]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

I do partly agree with him though.

Sin Sod, or the principle of valuable daughters has created a rather weird sociological effect in this country. Many women, in their 30'ties are single. The pressure on these women is enormous. They are responsible for their families' cash flows. Humane, not?

Why do you think there are so many working girls in this country?

Sin sod stems from a feudal society without much human and financial mobility, and is completely outdated.

It seems to me that everyone here defending this cultural monster, paid up and needs to justify this.

Thank you very much. This should have gone by the wayside long ago. Where's the security for the man in this deal, to keep his lovely from ditching him after they collect the cash? That's just one of many downsides to this mess.

Where's the security (with no sinsod) for the woman if the man ditches her after a month? He's taken her virginity and caused her and family a complete loss of face. I know a Thai woman this happened to. She was depressed for a year; crying all the time and sometimes couldn't even get out of bed. And, this prince of a guy had a relative on the police force and they tried to get back the 100K sinsod! Thankfully, the puyibon stepped in and didn't allow that.

[sbk]

If you're living together, why not just avoid the subject for a while? If marriage is necessary for visa the go to the registry office, takes about 1 hr. Explain due to the low US$ you don't have the funds, so it'll have to wait. Everybody talks about Thais paying sin sot, but from what I see most just live together.

I'm still curious as to whether a Thai man has ever offered sin sot when marrying a farang woman?

well as it stands sbk didn't and senoai didn't.......so your curiosity will have to wait a bit longer....

You seem to fail to understand my post. Sin sot WAS offered IF there were a wedding. I did not choose to have a wedding, so there was no sin sot. Ask any Thai person, no wedding, no sin sot. It is part of the wedding ceremony.

[LoveDaBlues]

just wondering.......

can you make a written enforceable contract about this sinsot,

i.e. how much you pay and how much will be returned (if any).

ahhhhh!!! peace of mind in dealing with thai fems is sooooo elusive.......

This is never a problem when dealing with a decent Thai lady from a good family.

In fact it would probably be taken as an insult to suggest such a thing.

[johnnymoretti]

My Thai wife is educated, a homeowner in BKK, and holds a 35,000bht/month job. She never even mentioned a Sinsod before we married. And her family has welcomed me with open arms. I am blessed to have such a great extended family in Thailand. But, had she asked or if I had even known about a sinsod (I never heard about it until after I married) then I would have respected her customs and culture and offered a fair amount to her family. As far as what is customary, perhaps the excerpt below might help.

This excerpt was taken directly from the UNESCO BKK website (www.unescobkk.org) and the complete article can be seen in PDF format at: THAI Religion and Cultural Factors - Chapter 4

D. Marriage Customs and Traditions

There are two ways in getting married in Thailand. One is by undergoing a traditional

Buddhist religious ceremony and the other through the legal process of marriage registration.

However, Thai women often forgo the latter.

A couple traditionally becomes engaged in a ceremony known as Thong Mun, which is

literally the giving of gold, usually in the form of jewelry§, by the prospective groom to his fiancé.

This ceremony is attended by the parents, friends and relatives of the couple. All Thai marriages

involve the tradition called Sinsod, which is the paying of a dowry to compensate for the bride’s

family (for the mother’s milk). The amount depends on the suitor’s wealth and the “value” of the

future bride, wherein her beauty, personality, background, education and other qualifications such

as if she was a virgin or with child. In case of re-marriages, there is usually no dowry given.

Nowadays, many families hand the dowry back to the couple as a wedding gift.

Early in the morning, in accordance with traditional Thai belief that married life should begin

with merit-making, the bride and groom feed village monks and present them with small gifts. In

return, the monks bless the couple and the house or room where they will live.

Traditional Thai marriage ceremonies and rituals need not be conducted in the presence of

monk and are usually performed at someone’s home. If the monks are invited, although they are

not directly connected with the ceremony, there always should be an odd number: three, five,

seven and the maximum number is nine.

The village marriage ceremony bestows no official validity on their union but is merely a

public proclamation that the two people will live together as man and wife. The young couple's

wrists are ceremoniously bound in the presence of village elders and they are led to the marriage

chamber as guests feast, drink, sing, and dance. After which, their marriage is registered at

the district office to make it legal.

After marriage, every couple eagerly awaits the birth of the first child, which usually comes in

the first year. Children have a high position in rural society since there is strength in numbers, a

vital sense of continuity is ensured, and many hands make farming activities easier. Often there

exists an unspoken preference for boys since they can be ordained as priests to gain merit for

themselves and their parents, but no love is withheld if the child proves to be a girl.

§ One Baht of gold is equals to 1/2 a troy ounce or 15.2 grams. In practice, an odd number is never given (as

it were for a couple), so the minimum should be two Baht of gold.

END

[a2396]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

I do partly agree with him though.

Sin Sod, or the principle of valuable daughters has created a rather weird sociological effect in this country. Many women, in their 30'ties are single. The pressure on these women is enormous. They are responsible for their families' cash flows. Humane, not?

Why do you think there are so many working girls in this country?

Sin sod stems from a feudal society without much human and financial mobility, and is completely outdated.

It seems to me that everyone here defending this cultural monster, paid up and needs to justify this.

Thank you very much. This should have gone by the wayside long ago. Where's the security for the man in this deal, to keep his lovely from ditching him after they collect the cash? That's just one of many downsides to this mess.

Where's the security (with no sinsod) for the woman if the man ditches her after a month? He's taken her virginity and caused her and family a complete loss of face. I know a Thai woman this happened to. She was depressed for a year; crying all the time and sometimes couldn't even get out of bed. And, this prince of a guy had a relative on the police force and they tried to get back the 100K sinsod! Thankfully, the puyibon stepped in and didn't allow that.

True, the knife cuts both ways about this. However, it would seem the issue you mention is about love, not money. Apparently, the man paid the sin sod and ditched the woman anyway. She loved him & he did not love her, I suppose. Trust & open communication are essential in a close personal relationship. All this jockeying around for money is counterproductive to building trust. In my opinion virginity is another matter that should not be considered as a commodity. Whether she is or isn't is irrelevant to anything. If the man expects a virgin for his wife, he should also be one.

[KireB]

Where's the security (with no sinsod) for the woman if the man ditches her after a month? He's taken her virginity and caused her and family a complete loss of face. I know a Thai woman this happened to. She was depressed for a year; crying all the time and sometimes couldn't even get out of bed. And, this prince of a guy had a relative on the police force and they tried to get back the 100K sinsod! Thankfully, the puyibon stepped in and didn't allow that.

Interesting point virginity. Most, decent, Thai ladies are deflowered long before they were 18!

What to do in case of a " bad, influenced by the evil western culture, lack-of -moral-values girl" (according to many hardliners in this country!).

Do you have to negotiate a lower sinsod amount? Something like:

Well dad-in-law, she had 7 sexuaL encounters before me, so let's see... that's 500,000 baht divided by 7 equals ........

Again, the whole idea of sinsod is based on a feudal society, virgin-like girls, who because of marriage lose their incomes (take care of hubby). Outdated.

My own Euro culture is great, but far from perfect. Same with Thai culture! Many great cultural values, but some are ......

[LoveDaBlues]

If money means more to her than you do, get rid of her & anyone else who thinks the same. This cultural remnent called GREED is sickning already. Chumps are perpetuating this "tradition" by paying up on demand. They want money, they should auction the ladies on eBay.

Yea, and no other opinion but yours counts.

I do partly agree with him though.

Sin Sod, or the principle of valuable daughters has created a rather weird sociological effect in this country. Many women, in their 30'ties are single. The pressure on these women is enormous. They are responsible for their families' cash flows. Humane, not?

Why do you think there are so many working girls in this country?

Sin sod stems from a feudal society without much human and financial mobility, and is completely outdated.

It seems to me that everyone here defending this cultural monster, paid up and needs to justify this.

Thank you very much. This should have gone by the wayside long ago. Where's the security for the man in this deal, to keep his lovely from ditching him after they collect the cash? That's just one of many downsides to this mess.

Where's the security (with no sinsod) for the woman if the man ditches her after a month? He's taken her virginity and caused her and family a complete loss of face. I know a Thai woman this happened to. She was depressed for a year; crying all the time and sometimes couldn't even get out of bed. And, this prince of a guy had a relative on the police force and they tried to get back the 100K sinsod! Thankfully, the puyibon stepped in and didn't allow that.

True, the knife cuts both ways about this. However, it would seem the issue you mention is about love, not money. Apparently, the man paid the sin sod and ditched the woman anyway. She loved him & he did not love her, I suppose. Trust & open communication are essential in a close personal relationship. All this jockeying around for money is counterproductive to building trust. In my opinion virginity is another matter that should not be considered as a commodity. Whether she is or isn't is irrelevant to anything. If the man expects a virgin for his wife, he should also be one.

With all due respect; all of your answers/opinions are from a Western mind.

ex. A Thai women's virginity (especially in a rural village) is VERY IMPORTANT.

ex. A Thai man being a virgin if his wife is; quite laughable from a Thai point of view.

quote: All this jockeying around for money is counterproductive to building trust.

Again, you're seeing things thru Western eyes/traditions. Trust is built before and after the marriage ceremony; sinsod is not about building trust.

My Western mind tells me the following. Why are there some people who want to tell me how to spend MY MONEY that I've earned? It's my right to spend my bucks any way I choose. Be it gambling, drinking, giving to charity, giving to BG, or paying sinsod. Far too many people in the world today telling others how to live.

LIVE AND LET LIVE.

[Heng]

A common trend among young Thais nowadays is for the soon to be bride and groom to pool their resources for the sinsod ceremony. Tradition is hardly set in stone. The folks complaining about getting ripped off are having relationship problems, IMO not problems with culture or tradition per se. It's like listening to folks complaining about or blaming the diamond engagement ring tradition as the cause for losing half of everything (ring included no doubt) in a divorce.

[LoveDaBlues]

Where's the security (with no sinsod) for the woman if the man ditches her after a month? He's taken her virginity and caused her and family a complete loss of face. I know a Thai woman this happened to. She was depressed for a year; crying all the time and sometimes couldn't even get out of bed. And, this prince of a guy had a relative on the police force and they tried to get back the 100K sinsod! Thankfully, the puyibon stepped in and didn't allow that.

Interesting point virginity. Most, decent, Thai ladies are deflowered long before they were 18!

What to do in case of a " bad, influenced by the evil western culture, lack-of -moral-values girl" (according to many hardliners in this country!).

Do you have to negotiate a lower sinsod amount? Something like:

Well dad-in-law, she had 7 sexuaL encounters before me, so let's see... that's 500,000 baht divided by 7 equals ........

Again, the whole idea of sinsod is based on a feudal society, virgin-like girls, who because of marriage lose their incomes (take care of hubby). Outdated.

My own Euro culture is great, but far from perfect. Same with Thai culture! Many great cultural values, but some are ......

There aren't any secrets in the rural villages.

And, you're contradicting yourself from the start. No such thing as a 'decent' Thai lady that is not a virgin; at least from a rural village and with regards to marriage.

Your 'negotiation' example is laughable. If a Thai female has 'been around the block' a few times (or a lot of time lol) sinsod will either not be asked or it will be a small amount. Many things are left 'unsaid' in the Thai culture to save face. Of course, if a farang male is involved then a normal amount of sinsod may be asked for a non-virgin.......time to run!!!!!!!

[JSixpack]

camerata wrote on 2008-02-24 12:32:05' in post 1835847:

> I understood the article and where the author is coming from just

> fine. The problem is he doesn't seem to have researched the

> material.

You, like, expected an academic treatise published in a refereed journal of sociology?

> It's just his personal observations

Yep, the coin of the ThaiVisa realm, personal observations. They

coincide with many of my own and those of others as well.

> (sometimes accurate, sometimes not)

As far as we know, always accurate, as we were not there with the

author to verify any particular original observation.

> with conclusions drawn from the perspective of Western culture,

Excellent. That's the perspective in which we are interested, since

it's the perspective of most of our members, which, he observes, differs

from the Thai perspective. An additional complication is that Thais

may not follow the good dictates of their own culture, esp. when

dealing with farang. Did you know that a cardinal Buddhist tenet

proscribes lying? Would you then believe that most Thais call

themselves Buddhists?

> which he clearly thinks is superior.

Though it may actually BE superior in many ways (shock!), actually he's

asking for commensurate respect for OUR culture, the dominant

culture on the planet. And in the absence of that, he won't marry a Thai.

Well done.

> He mentions some problems being related to face, but fails to

> understand how important face is in Thai culture (and why). He

> expects Thais to change lifelong cultural traits simply because a

> Westerner presents them with "superior" logic.

Of course he understands the importance of face for Thais, but also

understands its commendable lack of importance for Westerners. Yes, he

reasonably does expect Thais to make some compromises if they get involved with

Westerners. Otherwise, they should stick with other Thais.

> Well, the author of this article seems to expect Thais to conform to

> his culture rather than just show respect for it.

Showing respect may well involve some conforming, as we often do for

Thais when we live in Thailand--and so?

> I don't think he understands that the publicly stated perception of

> sex in middle age and the reality are two different things. I reckon

> urban middle-class, middle-aged females in 2008 would laugh at the

> idea that they are supposed to have stopped having sex around 40.

Oh, I think that he surely does, but the fact of this perception, of which most

farang are blissfully unaware, is noteworthy at the least; and I've

observed there is some evidence to support the suspicion that it

goes beyond perception. In your case, a reckoning doesn't quite even

come up to the status of observation.

> Here's a guy who thinks the word farang is pejorative (even though

> he uses it himself)

And so it very often IS pejorative, true; he uses the term as shorthand, as

we all do. It's reminiscent of black people in the USA using the N-word among themselves

though it is forbidden to whites.

> and that Thai women don't want farang to speak Thai so they can talk

> about us behind our backs. That might apply to BGs, but not in

> general, in my experience of 25 years in-country.

His point definitely applies to the many shades of shady ladies and

their familes, whether BG or not, and the countless testimonials on

this forum, and in the other media, indicate the high likelihood that

a farang man may well get involved with such, as they are so common. A

discerning farang should be able to read the signs if he wants to

avoid being taken for a ride, and the article is quite valuable for

that purpose.

> The bottom line is that if we choose to live in a foreign culture,

> life in general and marriage in particular means we'll have to make

> some major compromises and accommodate that culture - otherwise what

> are we doing here? The author of the article isn't prepared to do

> that.

Mostly he isn't prepared to make compromises in the absence of

reciprocal compromises on the part of Thais. It doesn't necessarily

matter WHICH country one is living in. And, yes, there may be points

on which he quite rightly isn't prepared to compromise at all,

especially if Thais aren't following their own "values" and treating

farang with less respect and consideration and honesty than other

Thais, taking advantage of farang naivety about Thai culture.

Our members here on TV should ask themselves on which points

they are similarly unprepared to compromise: there will surely be some

important ones.

> That's probably why the two or three Thai "gals" that met his high

> standards were not interested in him.

Mere speculation born of your own convenience for the sake of

argument. You just don't LIKE the article-sorry 'bout that. Yet it remains,

such as it is, the best commentary on Thai women ever written by a farang.

Edited February 25, 2008 by JSixpack

[wangsuda]

I've read some interesting comments here, and one that is reoccurring is that paying sin sod is a Thai tradition. Yes, it is. However, when people from two different cultures marry, then consideration of all cultures is needed. My mother-in-law demanded sin sod. When I told her the tradition in my country was that the bride's family pay for the wedding, she hit the roof! "No good! No good!" Oh well, lady, grow up and accept. In the end, my wife and I had a private Thai-style wedding and no sin sod was paid (agreed to by both myself and my wife). We've been happily married for almost four years now. In short, when someone demands something from me and says it's their cultural right to do so, then I demand something back as per my cultural right. Come to me with respect, and get respect in return. QED

[KireB]

There aren't any secrets in the rural villages.

And, you're contradicting yourself from the start. No such thing as a 'decent' Thai lady that is not a virgin; at least from a rural village and with regards to marriage.

Your 'negotiation' example is laughable. If a Thai female has 'been around the block' a few times (or a lot of time lol) sinsod will either not be asked or it will be a small amount. Many things are left 'unsaid' in the Thai culture to save face. Of course, if a farang male is involved then a normal amount of sinsod may be asked for a non-virgin.......time to run!!!!!!!

No contradiction here. Not being a virgin and being decent is quite plausible in my opinion. unless you are a religious fundamentalist (read: freak) or from rural stoneage communities. People have their basic needs, and sex is one of them.

My negotiation example was ment to be laughable, as one would expect.

And there aren't any secrets in the rural villages? Are you sure about that? Seems rather naive!

[camerata]

You just don't LIKE the article-sorry 'bout that. Yet it remains,

such as it is, the best commentary on Thai women ever written by a farang.

I don't like it because it is unremittingly negative and draws some incorrect conclusions as a result of a narrow perspective on the subject. Those who have a negative view of Thailand will probably love it, but it offers no solutions other than the implied "Don't marry a Thai." Yet many of us here have successful marriages or long-term relationships precisely because we are prepared to put some effort into seeing things the Thai way and compromising. For anyone who is seriously considering marrying a Thai, I'd suggest reading something like Thailand Fever, which takes a more positive and helpful approach.

In your case, a reckoning doesn't quite even come up to the status of observation.

Yes it does. My Thai partner is in her late 40s and we are still having sex - as are her classmate-friends of the same age. That's the reality today. By contrast, the article's author is not talking from personal experience when he concludes that Thai women refuse sex after 40.

Did you know that a cardinal Buddhist tenet proscribes lying? Would you then believe that most Thais call themselves Buddhists?

Failing to follow a precept does not mean one ceases to be a Buddhist. Thais are human, they aren't saints. And the Buddhist precepts are guidelines rather than commandments from God.

[LoveDaBlues]

There aren't any secrets in the rural villages.

And, you're contradicting yourself from the start. No such thing as a 'decent' Thai lady that is not a virgin; at least from a rural village and with regards to marriage.

Your 'negotiation' example is laughable. If a Thai female has 'been around the block' a few times (or a lot of time lol) sinsod will either not be asked or it will be a small amount. Many things are left 'unsaid' in the Thai culture to save face. Of course, if a farang male is involved then a normal amount of sinsod may be asked for a non-virgin.......time to run!!!!!!!

No contradiction here. Not being a virgin and being decent is quite plausible in my opinion. unless you are a religious fundamentalist (read: freak) or from rural stoneage communities. People have their basic needs, and sex is one of them.

My negotiation example was ment to be laughable, as one would expect.

And there aren't any secrets in the rural villages? Are you sure about that? Seems rather naive!

Western opinion and not Thai mindset; confirms what I've been saying.

A person who abstains from sex before marriage isn't a freak as you suggest; they are merely making a choice.

As far as the 'negotiation' example being meant as a joke........sorry I thought most of the post was laughable so hard to distinguish.......

I'm sure, there are no secrets in a rural village (except from farangs of course).

Well, my last post on this subject until it comes up again in a month or so. When it does emerge the control freaks will come out of the woodwork and tell people how to spend their money.

[chicowoodduck]

Either it's an affair of the heart or a financial transaction, decide.

Very good question. It should be the former but Thais often try to make you pay for the former with the latter. Western girls would tell their parents to eff off but Thais are many decades behind that level of thinking.

No reason why western males can't help out their Thai female counterparts in this matter and do the "<deleted> off on their behalf, that should cause true motives to rise to the surface fairly quickly. Interestingly I have a similar dilemma but in the reverse order.

When I started to live with Ms. CM I said I don't want to get married right away, let's see how it works out and she said fine. In the four years that have passed since we first met I have provided various things for the family including building them a small house and taken care of various odds and ends - given my finacial circumstances, no great shakes (whatever that phrase means). I have done those things because I wanted to, not because I had to and the rewards of the relationship have repaid those equivalent monetary sums many times over.

But of late, Ms CM says she wants to have "the party" to cement the relationship in the eyes of her family, neighbors and friends. I accept that this is about Ms CM's culture and I'm OK to do that as long as the costs are within bounds, and they are. But what followed was a long and interesting debate about Sin Sod, to which I replied, I've paid my dues. Where we are at present is me maintaining my original line whilst Ms. CM is debating matters with the family as to this farangs unorthodox approach to the Thai way of life. I will happily provide this forum with progress in this matter but all can seriously trust that my line will not change and I'm sure you will all be keen to learn if the family line does, or, perhaps not. My underlying position on all of this is that I will be fair and reasonable but I will not be held to emotional or financial ransom and I expect the same in return. Stay tuned.

After building a house for them if they want non-returnable sinsod then you're being screwed.

What's the old Rod Steward quote? "I'm going to go out and buy a house and than find a woman I don't like and give it to her." The OP was a lucky man, my Thai GF started out wanting 2 million THB + (see Sin Sod Part Deuce thread) with the promise of getting ZERO back. When I refused, she blew a gasket saying I insulted her and wanted to f-her for free? In the end, we negotiated down to the sum of zero and I kick her a** out. Once again....life is good!

[KireB]

There aren't any secrets in the rural villages.

And, you're contradicting yourself from the start. No such thing as a 'decent' Thai lady that is not a virgin; at least from a rural village and with regards to marriage.

Your 'negotiation' example is laughable. If a Thai female has 'been around the block' a few times (or a lot of time lol) sinsod will either not be asked or it will be a small amount. Many things are left 'unsaid' in the Thai culture to save face. Of course, if a farang male is involved then a normal amount of sinsod may be asked for a non-virgin.......time to run!!!!!!!

No contradiction here. Not being a virgin and being decent is quite plausible in my opinion. unless you are a religious fundamentalist (read: freak) or from rural stoneage communities. People have their basic needs, and sex is one of them.

My negotiation example was ment to be laughable, as one would expect.

And there aren't any secrets in the rural villages? Are you sure about that? Seems rather naive!

Western opinion and not Thai mindset; confirms what I've been saying.

A person who abstains from sex before marriage isn't a freak as you suggest; they are merely making a choice.

As far as the 'negotiation' example being meant as a joke........sorry I thought most of the post was laughable so hard to distinguish.......

I'm sure, there are no secrets in a rural village (except from farangs of course).

Well, my last post on this subject until it comes up again in a month or so. When it does emerge the control freaks will come out of the woodwork and tell people how to spend their money.

Thought we were 'talking' about being decent or not when having had a certain "experience"in your life. And yes, most who condemn sex before marriage are religious freaks. Condemn that is.

Funny that you like to confirm yourself and refer to control freaks telling you how to spend your money.

In my opinion we have a discussion here about paying Sin Sod or not. People have different opinions and no one is telling you how to spend your money. If I would throw my money in a river and post that on this forum, you probably would tell me you don't agree with that. And that's exactly what keeps these forums going!