Solar and wind energy in thailand

[Buccaneer]

Hi, I am interested to find out what is possible, in terms of availability, application and costs. Anybody into wind, solar and other alternative energay sources?

Cheers, Mar

[Larry]

In Israel, there is a law that all buildings must be equipped with solar panels that at least can provide hot water.  It has never ceased to amaze me why there is not a similar law in Thailand, a country with just as much sunshine, and more heat.

[issan2]

I bought a load of solar cells from solicon solar that I plan to create a solar panel with when I get to Issan this year. Its not cheap, but with all the sun in Thailand has to be a good idea.

[seville]

I know there is a place in Bangkok. You may be able to find out on the web where it is. I forget the name

[george]

Here is one:

http://www.zdirectory.com/standar....guage=E

More here:

http://www.zdirectory.com/a-zCRes....r+Cells

[george]

I want to set up a solar system. How many square meters of solar cells do you need to run a normal house, 1 A/C going all day, a couple of fans, refrigerator and a swimming pool pump basically?

How do you switch between solar and nor-solar power? Is there a autoswitch with control panel?

Anyone with higher engineer exam the me here?

[wolf5370]

I remember a couple of years back I was sent a pamphlet about Solar Cells. This was in the UK - yeah, grey old blighty - and the pamphlet reckoned that with the newer kind of panels (whatever they may be) if placed over the roof tiles - i.e. the area of the roof - could run the whole house completely. It ran a cost example of £10k (if I remember correctly) for a semi-detached 3 bed - it showed the kinds of daily use and devices that would be in use etc - which seemed reasonable (no a/c though of course).

If you can get that sort of power in blighty, then Thailand has to be a no-brainer.

Not sure about wind NRG though. Much of LOS is surrounded by mountains. Might be OK if you could site one on top of a peak, but unlikley to get permission unless this is where you live! Might be Ok in the South near the Gulf perhaps. Don't know whether you'd need some kind of planning permission, as they are much more conspicuous than solar panels on the roof.

[LPCustom69]

Not to mention the accident and liability potential for an individual with wind turbines. Electric companies could possibly make turbines work though, a big field of them would produce a substantial amount of electricity. Solar definitely seems to be the way to go. And as Wolf said, mounted on the roof they are inconspicuous, and less likely to be tampered with.

:cool:

[PETER THE EATER]

Let's just get something straight. There are solar panels available which consist of many photocells wired together to give a relatively small DC voltage output and not a lot of amps. They require light to work so at night there is no output. Consequently, a storage device is required, usually a battery which is trickle charged by the solar panel output. To drive AC devices requires an inverter DC in AC out. However, the DC in will probably be, say, 24 volts DC and we want an AC output of 220/240 V. This is achievable but not much power (watts) so can only drive fans, lights, fridge, TV etc.

To produce enough power to operate AC compessors, electric water heaters, electric kettles would require massive batteries and inverters.

For domestic applications, they are probably restricted to low power applications.

A different animal are the solar panels used for heating. These can be made up by the average DIY man who can bend and joint copper pipes. Encased in a black lined box with glass lid and exposed to the sun these can heat the circulating fluid to scalding temperature. Needs ideally to be a closed circuit filled with (say) vehicle coolant (ethylene glycol) and run into a coil in a water cylinder similar to a European immersion heater.

Could be used cheaply an effectively to warm up the shower water in the winter months and feed the washing machine and kitchen.

Alternatively the cheap Charlies can just connect the garden hose to an outside tap (faucet) and coil it to soak up the sunshine before turning on the tap. Hot for a while!

Peter

Peter

[plachon]

Hi, I am interested to find out what is possible, in terms of availability, application and costs. Anybody into wind, solar and other alternative energay sources?

Cheers, Mar

Hi. I saw a relatively cheap??? (approx. 140,000 baht) complete solar system being used at a govt. alternative energy centre here in Mahasarakham, that would be enough to power a few lights, a stereo, TV and fridge. The main expense are the solar panels themselves and the control panel. It's a big investment, unless you cost it in from the start of building a house and take a long term view of mains electricity saved (too cheap at present) and environmental benefits gained. Other possiblilities for earth-aware folk apart from solar water heaters are wind or wave pumping of water from home wells. Wind generally is a non-starter in Thailand, apart from perhaps the Southern coasts, but solar should take off in a few years (and could have taken off years ago if it wasn't for the dinosaurs in EGAT), as the costs of the technology decrease with adoption. But only reagrd it as a booster to mains electricity and not a panacea, unless you can go without A/C and a range of other power-hungry machines.

[george]

Inspired by another thread:

Anyone have done a solar panel installation in LOS?

How much did it cost, and how many Volt or problems did you get?

[translator]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my god !

[george]

He might help, but I was seriously interested in the technique and costs, not in the religious part of it.

TIA.

[translator]

Nice reply george, nice

[monitorlizard]

I think the A/C cannot be powered by solar. I could be wrong but a google search on solar in Israel would produce some worthy results. I remember stopping at a solar display place outside Chaing Mai? a few years ago. The cost was really high. I suppose the cost has dropped somewhat. I am under the impression that the solar will only power hot water, lights, and small energy items. The people who live "off the grid" in Northern California use solar and storage batteries for hot water and lights. There is no need for A/C but one for heat. They insulate like mad and have a lot of wood for the fireplace.And lots of sweaters and blankets. The radios are specially designed solar radios. I have never met anyone living this way having an entertainment system. Some were very clever and had their fridge outside (the front door would be facing inside of course). Keep in mind it is very cold up there. The biggest chanllange was bear-proofing it.

I would love to cut the electrical cords and use the free energy from the sun. I thought an interesting discussion would be alternative housing.

Are there any people out there that have built homes out of rice or straw bale? I was wondering if an underground home would solve the cooling problem. I know there is a Thai man who is using mud +straw construction to build a village in Issarn somewhere. Sounds really intriguing. I think this would solve the problems of farangs getting their house sold out from under them. The cost is really cheap and you can get the whole family involved in making bricks. Hey, you can be generous and build a house for each extended family member.

[sbk]

I've seen an ad in the Ban Lae Suan magazine for a company that sells solar panels as well as the hot water heating system that goes with it. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the company but I think they advertise in every Ban Lae Suan edition. It is out there, I remember reading the thai govt was trying to encourage solar energy use so maybe the price will come down.

[KevinN]

Some very good and true facts have been listed already.

There is a world of difference between water heaters and photovoltic panels,,not even in the same field except that you need sun.

First off you need to figure out how many watts you will use in a day, And I would not even figure using reefers and air cons as they are energy hogs.But if you do want to use them then you will have to have an enormous battery bank which will be cost prohibitive.

Usually on solar systems the reefers are gas or kerosene fired absorption systems and not mechanical systems.

the panels charge a bank of battery's and the battery's power an inverter,some inverters do not put out the correct sine wave to run computers and TV sets so you have to get the correct inverter, and your battery bank is not set up with automotive battery's,you will need special deep cycle battery's,such as the large[150 Kilos each] telephone co. battery's called jars because of the glass case. 6 battery's weigh 1 ton and will store 2000 amp.hrs.for a 12V inverter or 12 for a 4000 amp.hr bank for a 24 volt inverter. the reason for the phone co. jars is that they are recycled every 10 years at the phone co. and the battery's have a 50 year lifespan and you can get them cheaper than battery's built for solar systems.

Ni-Cads are satisfactory but you pay a good price for them and they are not environmentally friendly to recycle.

I have had 2 homes in the high country of the Pacific North West that have been solar powered,and have set up both systems myself and have been very satisfied with them,but we were at least 5 and at the most 10 miles from the power grids.

here is an addy you can get a world of info from about all kinds of alternative power. He is one of the best I know. <WWW.nwes.com>

[Guest IT Manager]

For the AC George 1.2 Rai is sufficient, just.

[Guest IT Manager]

Kevin what types of loads were you using please. Pacific Northwest from my reading wouldn't have a/c compressors which I would set in my use/demand table as rotating capacitive loads.

Washing machine also, and anything else that goes round and round. If you can remember would appreciate a short list of the things you used there.

Thanks

IT

[KevinN]

DAVE; I think I showed you some pics of the cabin in Idaho when you were here,anyway it was a very energy efficent house,,the walls were 1"cedar siding,1 1/2" of rigid insulation,6"wood,4"fiberglass blanket insul.,7/16 sheetrock walls and 12" insul in the roof.triple pane windoes with vinal frames and airtite wood stove for heat and gas reefers,water heater.so the only thing we used off solar was TV-100 watts about 100 watts for lights and a few for a waterpump.But you have to figure,we were so far north and down on the creek that we only got 3 hrs of sun a day in the winter. and we used in the summer a wringer washer,and had to run the gen if we wanted to use the 220V electric dryer as our inverter was only 1500 watt 120V,but could run the small micro or toaster.if you are living with power restrictions you can adapt a different lifestyle very easy, Just like here,we are using only harvested rain water,and we have cut down with no ill effects to less than 50 gals a day for the family and that includes washing machine and sanitary water use.

George; Yes they do make an auto switch that switches you to grid or gen power when your batterys drop to 10 Volts or possibly 20 on a 24 V system, Also you might consider running your air cons on one side of the system to keep them on grid and the rest of your house on solar bank,that would cut down on bank size and have the switch to cut the rest of your house in if you used to much off your batts.at night.that could be done at the main panel. check with Rob at NWES.for the switch.

[andy50]

hi guys on some small appliances like radios /tv,s its possible to run them on 24 volts,by removing the internal transformer and re-feeding the 2 output wires with your 24 v supply.the transformer simply converts 240volts a/c into 24volts dc anyway!i saw this done in the dom,republic this year to a radio

[monty]

I have no experience with solar panels buth do work a lot with batteries and convertors.

I designed a system on a yacht to be able to run of batteries for at least 2 days...

I guess for home use cost would be prohibitive, a 5000 Watt true sinewave convertor costs over 80000 baht in Thailand...

I don't think solar panels can generate enough current to charge a battery bank large enough to supply air-con. We charge our batt's with a 200 amp charger run of a generator. We have 3200 amp/hr batteries on board. If we draw the full 5000 watt on the convertor it pulls 120 amp out the batteries (at 48 volts)!!

[eric1000]

Hi, I am interested to find out what is possible, in terms of availability, application and costs. Anybody into wind, solar and other alternative energay sources?

Cheers, Mar

generally speaking the installation costs of solar powered panels and the associated control gear make it too expensive for the average person.

you need proper control gear to keep the panels at the optimum direction to the sun otherwise you get a reverse charge on your battery if its out of alignment.

each solar cube generates 1.5 volts DC.

so you can work out how many you need in a panel . a lot

then you need batteries and a converter for DC to AC conversion

and solar panels dont like really EXCESSIVE sun .

you can find out more by doing a search on the net, plenty of info available

it takes a long time to recoup your original costs for installation before you start making a saving . notionally around 5-6 years .

[KevinN]

If you punch up the www.nwse.com .you will get all the info available that you need to know. and all equip available.

[george]

Laureate: Invest in sunlight

Solar energy is the only sustainable energy source for electricity generation as the traditional means of burning fuel at power stations is accompanied by chemical and radiation contamination of the environment, said Nobel Laureate for Physics Professor Zhores Alferov.

Alferov, who won the prize in 2000, said it was predicted that known oil reserves would be exhausted in 40 to 50 years while it would be 60 to 70 years before natural gas ran out. Coal supplies could last for another 300 to 400 years, but with considerable environmental impact. The same is true for nuclear energy, he said, which can last 120 years at a time but with many problems with nuclear waste and the reactors themselves.

“Sunlight is practically an inexhaustible energy source,” said Alferov, during a lecture organised by the International Peace Foundation at Chulalongkorn University yesterday. “Sunlight is ecologically pure and an accessible energy source with high-energy potential.”

While solar energy is already widely used to supply power to spacecraft, the challenge is to extend it to terrestrial applications to supply autonomous household users and the like, he said. However, due to its low energy density, the cost of electricity obtained by solar arrays is high and that is the main problem retarding the development of a large-scale solar power industry.

Scientists, including Alferov, are trying to solve the problem of photovoltaic conversion to concentrate sunlight more efficiently, with smaller cells made of new material that can harness more energy more cheaply.

This new type of photosynthesis is being experimented with in many parts of the world, he added, with Japan being at the forefront at this stage. He said he hoped many more countries would invest in such research. Although he pointed out that even large oil producers are now big investors in research, the profit motive does not always take long-term interests into consideration.

Even without any technological breakthrough, Alferov said global energy production from solar energy in 2030 would equal today’s total electric consumption in Russia.

--The Nation 2004-03-10

[marto]

<font color='#000000'>Here is one:

http://www.zdirectory.com/standar....guage=E

More here:

http://www.zdirectory.com/a-zCRes....r+Cells</font>

It was easier for me to went to SINGHA page... than to obtain some info about the solars... This business is pretty good. PM me what you need to know...

[mouse]

Not too long ago I visited the local Electric Authority and questioned them as to solar systems. They indicated that while ample equipment was available that it was permitted if no power grid was in the area of the home. However, they indicated that according to Thai Law I was not authorized to use any devices that would deprive the Electric Authority the opportunity to sell power to me.

I even found equipment that allowed me to run my entire home, air conditioner and all, set up in such a manner that the excess could theoretically be sold back to the Electric Company. They indicated that was also a no no.

[wolf5370]

However, they indicated that according to Thai Law I was not authorized to use any devices that would deprive the Electric Authority the opportunity to sell power to me.

Nothing like forward thinking Bureaucrats!

How many ways are there to "deprive the Electric Authority the OPPORTUNITY to sell..." - Many poor poeple can't afford electricity, are they then 'depriving the EA of the OPPORTUNITY" - just another completely open ended Thai law that can be applied anyway they see fit - don't know why they bother making laws in the first place; they could simply put an amendment to the constitution stating "We can have you for anything, at anytime...We can stop you doing anything and we can force you to do anything..." - I suppose Thaksin ownes the EA as well.

[NedKelly]

Hey monitor lizard. I posted a topic here ages ago asking if anyone had seen mudbrick houses being built anywher ein Thailand. Someone replied and said a house in Petchabun (I think) was mud ! You are right, if the house was built with really thick walls and insulated above as well. there would be no need for air con. Fans would suffice I am sure. This may be a good cheap alternative for people with little money to spend on a decent house. There is plenty of mud and plenty of rice straw available all over Thailand. Add to this, second hand bits from old buildings and you could have a very cheap house.

[rbee]

<font color='#000000'>Let's just get something straight. There are solar panels available which consist of many photocells wired together to give a relatively small DC voltage output and not a lot of amps. They require light to work so at night there is no output. Consequently, a storage device is required, usually a battery which is trickle charged by the solar panel output. To drive AC devices requires an inverter DC in AC out. However, the DC in will probably be, say, 24 volts DC and we want an AC output of 220/240 V. This is achievable but not much power (watts) so can only drive fans, lights, fridge, TV etc.

To produce enough power to operate AC compessors, electric water heaters, electric kettles would require massive batteries and inverters.

For domestic applications, they are probably restricted to low power applications.

A different animal are the solar panels used for heating. These can be made up by the average DIY man who can bend and joint copper pipes. Encased in a black lined box with glass lid and exposed to the sun these can heat the circulating fluid to scalding temperature. Needs ideally to be a closed circuit filled with (say) vehicle coolant (ethylene glycol) and run into a coil in a water cylinder similar to a European immersion heater.

Could be used cheaply an effectively to warm up the shower water in the winter months and feed the washing machine and kitchen.

Alternatively the cheap Charlies can just connect the garden hose to an outside tap (faucet) and coil it to soak up the sunshine before turning on the tap. Hot for a while!

Peter

Peter</font>

Hi George,

I'm new to this forum, but I am pleased to find it. I think that you and Dr Pat and the others are doing a great service to the rest of us! Thanks.

Basically I agree that Peter the Eater is correct. You can run your lights, radios/stereos, TVs, VCRs, a small efficient reefer, and other low-load electronics with simple solar set-ups including batteries. It is easiest if your appliances are already 12 or 24 volt, then you don't need converters, but you can also mix and match A/C and 12/24 volt together. It just gets more complicated.

I would suggest buying 12 or 24 volt volt ceiling fans to run directly off your simple set-up, as they draw very little energy. A ceiling fan directly over the bed or seating areas is amazingly effective!

I would also suggest a 12 or 24 volt water pump for the pool, with it's own small solar panel. If you did not want batteries for this one, I think it would still do it's job only running when the sun is shining. You may not be aware of this, but most solar panels will still generate some power in low (early morn or evening) or cloudy light, therby extending the days power.

Eater is right about making hot water the cheap and easy way, too.

The AC is the killer! If you can get off it, it would save you much $$$$ in solar panels.

I lived in South Florida for 2 years, with 100 degree weather and 100% humidity, with only ceiling fans, and it really wasn't bad. The real trick is to create shady environments around your house to keep the outside walls cool, and lots of movement of air within your house. Look at the "old style" Thai houses for inspiration. Do not allow the sun to shine on windows or walls, especially concrete block walls. They are useless as insulation.

Well, I know all about the permaculture principles of off-grid power and heating, but I am hoping that when I get there , I will find someone thru this forum who can help me set-up these systems. I am NOT good with the actual numbers, unfortunately. but I have helped set these systems up in the US with other people in charge of those numbers, and it was fairly easy, really.

There is a REALLY good magazine for beginners AND pros which explains all kinds of systems and what they cost to set up. It's called Home Power Magazine, and I highly recommend it. It's written by regular folks for regular folks. they have a great website too:

www.homepower.com

the cost for international is $30. USD Ground. You can call them at 541-512-0201 for the Air price.

Check it out.

Thanks, Miss Robin