Civil Partnerships

[Guest]

Pauln--

I split my thinking into two areas:

1. The theoretical viability of taking my Thai spouse to the UK permanently or long-term, following our 'marriage'. It seems that the Vietnam ceremony will be much better than my original plan, which was to try to marry him after we got into the UK (him on a visa). However, I have just read on Ajarn.com about a man taking his Thai wife back to the UK. It is complex, to the point that it's better to show old anniversary cards, wedding pics etc. Now I hear that there is an English test etc.

2. The ideal outcome would be to move with the spouse/BF to Spain. I have a place there, I speak Spanish and I lived there for 8 years. I have a Spanish residency permit. It is better for us to live there. I have less of a grasp on how this would work. Presumably we would go to the Spanish Embassy here in BKK with our wedding cert. etc. I am not sure what would happen next. He may only get a Schengen, when what we want is settlement.

It seems that there are few Brits with Thai BFs already married and gone off to Spain---who could answer me about the process. There is no problem for an EU couple wishing to live in Spain.

best

PEd

Unfortunately I know nothing about Spanish law but I've always found that a direct approach to the relevant authorities gets the answer. As you speak Spanish then I'm sure either the Spanish Embassy or their Foreign Ministry can give you a clear answer. There may not be many Brits with Thai bfs in your position, but I'm sure there are Germans etc with Filipinos or whatever boyfriends living there, so the situation would be similar. I believe that they would grant a visa as they recognise gay marriage and civil partnerships.

As for the UK, yes you'd need an interview etc, and they are tightening the rules, but you need to decide if you two want to live in Spain, or in the UK. Hopefully, if you just want to take him to visit the UK it would be a little easier to get a tourist visa. Of course the Schengen visa doesn't cover the UK, but its time they signed up!

While there are lots of hurdles to overcome to get your bf a permanant visa for the UK , once you've done it, most problems melt away afterwards.

[tuanna]

Hi,

As stated in the UK Embassy in Hanoi does not proceed civil partnership for Vietnamese, so for Vietnamese we will have to fly to Japan or so to do our registration for partnership, right?

http://www.uknow.or.jp/be_e/consular/atoz/c/02.htm

As it reads:

If your partner is not a British national the consular officer has an obligation to ensure that both partners are free to enter into a Civil Partnership. Consequently, before the appointment with the consular officer you must produce evidence of your partner's freedom to register a Civil Partnership by reason of being single or any previous marriage having been dissolved by divorce or death of the former spouse. In the case of a Japanese national, this evidence is usually contained in a recently certified copy of the family register (koseki-tohon).

Those wishing to register partners of other nationalities must produce documents testifying to place and date of birth and freedom to register a Civil Partnership.

Anyone knows anything about this?

[Krub]

Hi,

As stated in the UK Embassy in Hanoi does not proceed civil partnership for Vietnamese, so for Vietnamese we will have to fly to Japan or so to do our registration for partnership, right?

http://www.uknow.or.jp/be_e/consular/atoz/c/02.htm

As it reads:

If your partner is not a British national the consular officer has an obligation to ensure that both partners are free to enter into a Civil Partnership. Consequently, before the appointment with the consular officer you must produce evidence of your partner's freedom to register a Civil Partnership by reason of being single or any previous marriage having been dissolved by divorce or death of the former spouse. In the case of a Japanese national, this evidence is usually contained in a recently certified copy of the family register (koseki-tohon).

Those wishing to register partners of other nationalities must produce documents testifying to place and date of birth and freedom to register a Civil Partnership.

Anyone knows anything about this?

If you are asking what a 'koseki-tohon' is, it is a certificate of the civil status of a Japanese national where his birth, parentage, wedding(s) and children are recorded. It therefore shows if he is married or not. As a foreigner (non-Jaoanese) does not have a 'koseki' in Japan, that certificate is not available to non-Japanese.

[dukkha]

My question is that if I as an Australian citizen were to have a civil union with my thai partner would he be granted those rights if we were to live in thailand as I have no intention of living in Australia...we both wish to remain living in Thailand and I dont know the ramifications if that were to be the case..would we need to reside in Australia, cohabit.

If we gained a civil partnership I think the Australian government would be reluctant to grant my thai partner equal rights if we were not living in Australia or maybe such a situation is possible.. Dukkha

[Krub]

My question is that if I as an Australian citizen were to have a civil union with my thai partner would he be granted those rights if we were to live in thailand as I have no intention of living in Australia...we both wish to remain living in Thailand and I dont know the ramifications if that were to be the case..would we need to reside in Australia, cohabit.

If we gained a civil partnership I think the Australian government would be reluctant to grant my thai partner equal rights if we were not living in Australia or maybe such a situation is possible.. Dukkha

The Australian authorities would recognize your rights but not the Thai authorities as such a union is not recognized in Thailand.

I would like to be able to bring my partner with me to Japan each time I need to be there for my work but as Japan would not recognize our union, he has to apply for a tourist visa to visit friends. It might actually make it more difficult to obtain such a visa if we were officially partners as the Japanese authorities would see him as a risk to overstay to stay with me.

We have decided not to go ahead for now with the partnership or marriage as we do not intend to live in the countries which recognizes such unions.

Once (if ever) Thailand and/or Japan recognizes such unions it will be an advantage to be officially partners.

[dukkha]

My question is that if I as an Australian citizen were to have a civil union with my thai partner would he be granted those rights if we were to live in thailand as I have no intention of living in Australia...we both wish to remain living in Thailand and I dont know the ramifications if that were to be the case..would we need to reside in Australia, cohabit.

If we gained a civil partnership I think the Australian government would be reluctant to grant my thai partner equal rights if we were not living in Australia or maybe such a situation is possible.. Dukkha

The Australian authorities would recognize your rights but not the Thai authorities as such a union is not recognized in Thailand.

I would like to be able to bring my partner with me to Japan each time I need to be there for my work but as Japan would not recognize our union, he has to apply for a tourist visa to visit friends. It might actually make it more difficult to obtain such a visa if we were officially partners as the Japanese authorities would see him as a risk to overstay to stay with me.

We have decided not to go ahead for now with the partnership or marriage as we do not intend to live in the countries which recognizes such unions.

Once (if ever) Thailand and/or Japan recognizes such unions it will be an advantage to be officially partners.

So Krub what you are saying is that, if we had a civil union from Australia, the Australian government would recognise him as my partner and hence, in my case, upon my death he would receive 5/8th of my government superannuation pension just as if he were an Australian although not residing in Australia, this is my problem...had I been in a heterosexual marriage my spouse would be entitled to that amount of my pension monthly, but as he will not be residing in Australia will he still be able to receive that pension amount? A somewhat confused Dukkha....

[Krub]

My question is that if I as an Australian citizen were to have a civil union with my thai partner would he be granted those rights if we were to live in thailand as I have no intention of living in Australia...we both wish to remain living in Thailand and I dont know the ramifications if that were to be the case..would we need to reside in Australia, cohabit.

If we gained a civil partnership I think the Australian government would be reluctant to grant my thai partner equal rights if we were not living in Australia or maybe such a situation is possible.. Dukkha

The Australian authorities would recognize your rights but not the Thai authorities as such a union is not recognized in Thailand.

I would like to be able to bring my partner with me to Japan each time I need to be there for my work but as Japan would not recognize our union, he has to apply for a tourist visa to visit friends. It might actually make it more difficult to obtain such a visa if we were officially partners as the Japanese authorities would see him as a risk to overstay to stay with me.

We have decided not to go ahead for now with the partnership or marriage as we do not intend to live in the countries which recognizes such unions.

Once (if ever) Thailand and/or Japan recognizes such unions it will be an advantage to be officially partners.

So Krub what you are saying is that, if we had a civil union from Australia, the Australian government would recognise him as my partner and hence, in my case, upon my death he would receive 5/8th of my government superannuation pension just as if he were an Australian although not residing in Australia, this is my problem...had I been in a heterosexual marriage my spouse would be entitled to that amount of my pension monthly, but as he will not be residing in Australia will he still be able to receive that pension amount? A somewhat confused Dukkha....

Yes Australia will recognize your union for anything related to Australia.

If you were both Australians or both living in Australia with one of you Australian and in partnership would your partner be entitled to your pension after your death if he happened to live abroad ? If so your Thai partner will also.

I was assured that my partner would be able to inherit according to the laws of the country that recognizes our partnership for the assets in that country.

But it is very new in international law as very few countries recognize same sex unions. It is quite easy if both partners are living in the country that recognizes the union, once you both go out of those countries that recognizes same sex unions, you are not related at all any more (as far as the country you are in is concerned, this is the case if you are in Thailand or Japan).

[jamestan]

Last year i married my boy friend who is an english man but i am living in thailand, do i have right to apply UK pension when i retire (65)? Do i have right to live in UK?

[RealityCheck]

Hi Everyone - apologies for bumping this tread to the top, but I couldn't find a better place to post.

My Thai partner and I (Brit) are planning on going to HCMC later this year to cement our relationship.

Have any of you done this recently?

I am looking for any helpful comments and pointers to pitfalls that I should look out for.

Where does one obtain the "certificate of no impediment" that the Thai partner needs to present at HCMC?

Does one need to make an appointment at the British Consulate General in HCMC or just turn up at the door?

Is a letter from a hotel proof enough of the 7 day residence requirement?

Is it possible to purchase the services of the 2 witnesses in HCMC or should we plan on taking family members?

The link towards the top of this thread, which I understand is extremely useful, no longer points to the article.

Any pointers to where the article can now be found?

Many thanks.

[Thewayup]

Hi Everyone - apologies for bumping this tread to the top, but I couldn't find a better place to post.

My Thai partner and I (Brit) are planning on going to HCMC later this year to cement our relationship.

Have any of you done this recently?

I am looking for any helpful comments and pointers to pitfalls that I should look out for.

Where does one obtain the "certificate of no impediment" that the Thai partner needs to present at HCMC?

Does one need to make an appointment at the British Consulate General in HCMC or just turn up at the door?

Is a letter from a hotel proof enough of the 7 day residence requirement?

Is it possible to purchase the services of the 2 witnesses in HCMC or should we plan on taking family members?

The link towards the top of this thread, which I understand is extremely useful, no longer points to the article.

Any pointers to where the article can now be found?

Many thanks.

Hi, many congratulations to you and your BF. My Thai partner and I are also getting our civil partnership in HCMC next April (just booked free flights with Air Asia so it's official!).

The certificate of no impediment is obtained at your BF's local district office (ที่ว่าการอำเภอ) - it's very easy to obtain as they will print you a copy while you wait and there is no charge. I think it is best to get a dated copy less than a month before you go to Vietnam.

I emailed the consulate in HCMC and they suggested just letting them know informally when we plan to be there. The 7 days' residence is valid from the ninth day as the day you arrive and the day you apply don't count. Hotels and guesthouses will register you with the local police each night so hotel receipts should be fine as evidence. You must stay in the South of the country (south of Da Nang officially) if you are registering with the HCMC consulate, but you don't have to stay in Ho Chi Minh City if you would rather spend a week at the beach.

As for witnesses, the consulate will provide two for a nominal fee or you can bring your own friends (no fee) - whichever you prefer.

You need to apply for a visa in advance (either at a consulate or via an online service) to enter Vietnam, but your Thai partner can freely enter Vietnam for up to 30 days visa-free. There should be no problems with you both going through Vietnamese immigration, but it's best to dress very conservatively - if either you or your partner are men who prefer to wear ladies' clothes and make-up it is a good idea not to do so going through Vietnamese immigration!

[RealityCheck]

Hi.

Thanks for your very comprehensive response.

Sounds like it's all going to be fairly straightforward.

We've been together (living in Isaan), now, for five years, and thought it about time to make it official.

Regarding the dress-code, that won't be an issue.

Neither of us are in the least flamboyant.

Congratulations to the two of you also. I hope everything goes well for you both.

If you're planning your trip in April, my partner and I will have gone through the process before you, so I'll post here and let you know how it goes.

Again - Many Thanks and Good Luck!

[Guest]

When going to get the Certificate of No Impediment, your Thai partner will need to have a member of his immediate family with him - mother, father, brother, sister...

[JohnLeech]

Hi Everyone - apologies for bumping this tread to the top, but I couldn't find a better place to post.

My Thai partner and I (Brit) are planning on going to HCMC later this year to cement our relationship.

Have any of you done this recently?

I am looking for any helpful comments and pointers to pitfalls that I should look out for.

Where does one obtain the "certificate of no impediment" that the Thai partner needs to present at HCMC?

Does one need to make an appointment at the British Consulate General in HCMC or just turn up at the door?

Is a letter from a hotel proof enough of the 7 day residence requirement?

Is it possible to purchase the services of the 2 witnesses in HCMC or should we plan on taking family members?

The link towards the top of this thread, which I understand is extremely useful, no longer points to the article.

Any pointers to where the article can now be found?

Many thanks.

Hi, many congratulations to you and your BF. My Thai partner and I are also getting our civil partnership in HCMC next April (just booked free flights with Air Asia so it's official!).

The certificate of no impediment is obtained at your BF's local district office (ที่ว่าการอำเภอ) - it's very easy to obtain as they will print you a copy while you wait and there is no charge. I think it is best to get a dated copy less than a month before you go to Vietnam.

I emailed the consulate in HCMC and they suggested just letting them know informally when we plan to be there. The 7 days' residence is valid from the ninth day as the day you arrive and the day you apply don't count. Hotels and guesthouses will register you with the local police each night so hotel receipts should be fine as evidence. You must stay in the South of the country (south of Da Nang officially) if you are registering with the HCMC consulate, but you don't have to stay in Ho Chi Minh City if you would rather spend a week at the beach.

As for witnesses, the consulate will provide two for a nominal fee or you can bring your own friends (no fee) - whichever you prefer.

You need to apply for a visa in advance (either at a consulate or via an online service) to enter Vietnam, but your Thai partner can freely enter Vietnam for up to 30 days visa-free. There should be no problems with you both going through Vietnamese immigration, but it's best to dress very conservatively - if either you or your partner are men who prefer to wear ladies' clothes and make-up it is a good idea not to do so going through Vietnamese immigration!

The rules and requirements are exactly the same regardless of whether you are registering a (same sex) Civil Partnership or a (opposite sex) marriage. To clarify a few points:

You need to inform the consulate of the date you intend to both register your application and, subsequently, of the date you intend to register the CP. If you fail to and simply turn up expecting immediate help the CP registration officer may be away and you will have had a wasted journey.

The Certificate of No Impediment is obtained from his local district office. You will then need a certified translation, which then needs to be certified by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Bangkok, which then needs to be certified by the British Embassy in Bangkok. The Ministry will process an application made in the morning by the afternoon, but the Embassy take overnight (and, unsurprisingly, are considerably more expensive!).

Your second visit for registration can be 3 weeks to 3 months later - you will need another Vietnam visa for this.

Your registered address, which will be shown on your CP Certificate, will be the address of the Consulate not your hotel; your passport shows all the required evidence of arrival dates.

There is no fee for witnesses (unless this is a very recent change), who are embassy staff.

There is no need for your Thai (prospective) partner to have a member of his family with him to obtain the Certificate of No Impediment unless he is under Thai legal age (21) in which case he needs his parents' written consent.

[Guest]

I wonder if the new immigration procedure announced last week will have any impact on a UK national wanting to bring(take) their non eu partner into the UK.?

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7269790.stm" target="_blank">BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Immigration points system begins</a>

It will as my understanding is that the non-Europeans will have to take an English language test, and later after two years some other kind of cultural test. If you partner speaks some English it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Guest]

"There is no need for your Thai (prospective) partner to have a member of his family with him to obtain the Certificate of No Impediment unless he is under Thai legal age (21) in which case he needs his parents' written consent."

No completely true - I think it depends on the tesaban/amphur involved. When we did this my partner, who is a long way over 21, had to take his sister along when he applied.

[ProThaiExpat]

"The List" lists USA but the link didn't work.

While same sex marriages and civil partnerships are permitted in various states in the United States, the federal government that controls immigration, does not recognize either institution.

Barriers are falling all the time and progress toward equal rights for gays is being made around the world.

[RealityCheck]

Many thanks Pauln and JohnLeech for the additional information.

Any and all knowledge will help the event run more smoothly, I'm sure.

I didn't realise, for example, that there was quite so much involved in the certification of the Certificate of No Impediment.

None of what you say is a problem, but very useful to know because extra time (and a trip to BKK) will be needed to get what's needed.

The Consular website states that there "is no cerimony" involved in the registration of a CP.

Does it, therefore, follow that there are no exchanging of vows and rings?

Is it just a case that, on the day, one simply stands at a counter and signs one's name?

We have no immediate plan to reside in the UK (as we're happy in Isaan) but, should this change, I suspect there'll be a whole new series of issues that need to be reviewed regarding my partners immigration. He has pretty fluent English and is 30 years old.

Again - many thanx.

[JohnLeech]

The Consular website states that there "is no cerimony" involved in the registration of a CP.

Does it, therefore, follow that there are no exchanging of vows and rings? Is it just a case that, on the day, one simply stands at a counter and signs one's name?

Officially there "is no ceremony" because there "is no ceremony" involved in the registration of a CP anywhere. Things may vary slightly but basically on your second visit to the High Commission in HCMC (the first being for your initial application) your papers will be checked at one window downstairs and you pay the requisite fees (including for any "original copies" of the Certificate you need to take home with you), you wait a while then go to another window where you both sign affidavits, you wait a bit more then go upstairs where you both sit down at a large table and sign a couple more forms which are duly witnessed and registered then you go downstairs and wait a bit more before collecting your certificate and any copies you ordered. Go early, and allow some time.

As no cameras are officially allowed inside the embassy if you are lucky one of the staff will be taking photos which they will e-mail to you later, although I would clarify this with them in advance as well as warn them of any guests who will be going and of any "exchanging of vows and rings" which you would like to do upstairs - the staff cannot be involved in this in any capacity, but as long as you warn them in advance they will normally have no objections to you doing whatever you want (within reason!).

The certificate is nicely filled out in "copper plate" handwriting (believe it or not by the cleaner!) and whatever you put down as your respective "occupations" on your initial application form will appear on the final certificate, so it is probably better to put down something along the lines of "retired" and "farm manager" or "company director" rather than anything else, as it will stay with you for life.

[RealityCheck]

Once again - thanks for the info.

A friend of mind registered a CP in the UK several years back, and that was very much a "full blown" event with around 50 guests at the actual commitment cerimony and around 200 at the reception.

There were vows and rings exchanged, tears (of joy) shed, formal attire, 5 course meal, wedding cake, et al.

What you describe, however, is about what I was expecting.

So I reckon we'll ask for a simple exchange of rings, but skip anything else.

We can then hold a big party upon our return to Thailand which will involve friends and family and much merriment .

[Guest]

When we went to Hanoi (I cant speak for HCMC) we were allowed to bring a camera and the staff offered to take photos. We were also asked if we wanted to exchange vows and rings, so in my own experience, it seems they are open to that.

[RealityCheck]

Hi Guys..... Good new's!

My partner and I have the oportunity of pulling the Civil Partnership date forward, so we're now planning the first trip to HCMC in September.

Can anyone recommend one or more gay friendly hotels (in HCMC) to stay the 9 nights?

Many Thanks.

[chaoclive]

Hi guys

I'm interested in finding out what kind of visas those of you who registered a CP in Vietnam (Hanoi or Ho Chi Min City) used to enter the country? I'm British and my partner is Chinese - do we both just need to apply for a normal tourist visa for Vietnam? I guess this is the case as the CP is not actually anything to do with Vietnam itself (it's a UK issue right?)

Is this correct?

Thanks so much

C

[Krit]

The following is an interesting excerpt from the official website of the Finnish Foreign Ministry. It's under "Countries: Thailand: Good to know" and written by the Finnish Embassy in Bangkok, document last updated 10 January 2011.

The translation is mine.

"Registered Partnership

A union between persons of the same sex is also considered official in Thailand, if the partnership is official and legal according to the laws of the originating country. In Thailand's relevant legislation, men and women are not specifically mentioned but the word "spouse" is used. [note: the Embassy uses the English word "spouse" in this text.] If persons living in a registered partnership are considered to be spouses, their gender is irrelevant. However, in Thailand it is not possible for two people of the same sex to marry or register their partnership."

http://formin.finland.fi/public/default.aspx?nodeid=43713&contentlan=1&culture=fi-FI

Is this true? I don't think the Embassy and Foreign Ministry would lightly write whatever in their country files. Does anyone have experience of this? Could a registered partnership be used to apply for a Thai marriage visa, for example?

[SweatiePie]

CC, correct; a number of British and Thai friends of mine have registered their CPs in Vietnam and in all cases the Brits used tourist visas.

Krit, no this is not correct. No same sex marriage/civil partnership is recognised in Thailand, so none have any legal base here nor can they be used to apply for a marriage visa, etc. The only possible relevance is where the foreign partner dies intestate and the other partner has to establish his position as the next of kin, but this would in any case be dependent on the Embassy of the country concerned who are automatically consulted in such cases. If it were the Thai partner who died intestate then anything in Thailand in their name would go to their next of kin under Thai law - this would not, under current legislation, include a foreign civil partner/spouse.

[fleeing]

Just a little information update. Some of the original info is a little unclear or changed.

The translation of the Thai Certificate of No Impediment does not have to be certified by the British Embassy. Certification by the Thai Foreign Ministry is sufficient.

According to Sunbelt Asia this process can take between 3 and 5 days!

For those unable or unwilling to hang around Bangkok for so long waiting for this certification, Sunbelt Asia are able to provide translation and certification for a fee (Baht3210 plus Baht400 Govt.fee). Please avoid discussion of this fee here (TV Rules!!!) but suggestions of alternatives are welcome.

Entry stamps to Vietnam are accepted as proof of length of stay by the Consulate in Saigon, which must be 7 full days not including day of arrival or day of application.

Registration (of Civil Partnership) is first possible after 14 full days (previously reported as 3 weeks) not including day of application.

Witnesses (2) provided by the Consulate cost VND734,000 or US$36 per witness. It is of course possible to supply your own witnesses, provided they are 18 years or older and 'of full capacity to act as a witness'.

If you need more than one copy of the registration certificate, it will cost VND2,203,000 or US$107 per copy.

This information comes from the very helpful U.K. Consulate General in Ho Chi Minh City and Sunbelt Asia, Bangkok.

My thai partner and I will hopefully register in April this year and I will be reporting back on any new insights gained.

Edited March 3, 2011 by fleeing