Protecting Land Investment

[watson]

Hi,

I have recently returned from Thailand having built a 1 million baht bungalow on some 2 Rai of Por Bor Tor 5 land I purchased (in my Thai wife's name) about 3 years ago. The land is part of about 8 Rai the previous Thai landowner sold to about 4 other Europeans (and their Thai wives).

I am looking at what protection can be offered in my investment should my wife either a) die, or divorse me.

Can some protection be offered through my wife leasing me the land, and if so, can this be further protected by a stipulation that she may not sell the land during the period of the lease?

Can some protection be offered that in addition to the lease that in her Will- should she die - the land will be transferred to our (UK and Thai national) daughter, and not another member of her family (or is this inheritance automatic)?

Can some protection be offered through a Thai marriage contract (we were married in the UK and have not been married in Thailand as yet), that in the event we divorsed, she could not deny me access to the land/property?

Can there be a combination of both of the above or am I in an impossible position to protect my investment in the case of either my wife's death or divorse?

Can anyone help, have experience/suggestions?

Many thanks

[LivinLOS]

i am of the understanding that Por Bor Tor shouldnt be touched.. Cant be legally leased.. And as such would not consider anything on it as more than simply enjoy today and try not to be upset should it vanish.

[Khun Jean]

Answers in red.

Hi,

I have recently returned from Thailand having built a 1 million baht bungalow on some 2 Rai of Por Bor Tor 5 land I purchased (in my Thai wife's name) about 3 years ago. The land is part of about 8 Rai the previous Thai landowner sold to about 4 other Europeans (and their Thai wives).

I am looking at what protection can be offered in my investment should my wife either a) die, or divorse me.

Can some protection be offered through my wife leasing me the land, and if so, can this be further protected by a stipulation that she may not sell the land during the period of the lease? NO

Can some protection be offered that in addition to the lease that in her Will- should she die - the land will be transferred to our (UK and Thai national) daughter, and not another member of her family (or is this inheritance automatic)? NO

Can some protection be offered through a Thai marriage contract (we were married in the UK and have not been married in Thailand as yet), that in the event we divorsed, she could not deny me access to the land/property? NO

Can there be a combination of both of the above or am I in an impossible position to protect my investment in the case of either my wife's death or divorse? NO

Can anyone help, have experience/suggestions?

Many thanks

Many NO's because of the land title. Upgrade to 'nor sor sam' or higher, preferable a 'chanot'.

[LivinLOS]

Also can Por Bor Tor even be 'transfered to my wifes name' ??

I thought those kind of titles could not be transfered hence the whole thing sounds bogus ?? Or is it only Sor Por Kor which cannot be transfered (land usage rights given not ownership ??)..

I have had a couple of brief reads but decided anything less than nor sor gor was to be forgotten about immediately.

[watson]

Also can Por Bor Tor even be 'transfered to my wifes name' ??

I thought those kind of titles could not be transfered hence the whole thing sounds bogus ?? Or is it only Sor Por Kor which cannot be transfered (land usage rights given not ownership ??)..

I have had a couple of brief reads but decided anything less than nor sor gor was to be forgotten about immediately.

[watson]

In response to LivinLOS interesting points on should Por Bor Tor 5 be considered when looking to purchasing land in Thailand...

In our case, we decided to proceed because a) I was ultimately prepared to lose my stake, the return on the gamble was significant should we win - that is the land was inexpensive compared to the possible return and c) there are about a thousand other Thai or European/Thai families in the vacinity who already "only" had Por Bor Tor 5 title and had built expensive houses/businesses so I thought "if it's alright for them...".

As it turns out, when I visited the land the land this month, which is 3 years after purchasing it, I was told by our local Thai and European neighbours, that the land was to be upgraded to Chanot in another 2 years time. They had this on good authority from the head of the land registry who, quiite coincidently I am sure, had also just purchased 10 Rai of Por Bor Tor 5 located 200m from my wife's...

So, albeit that my land is still Por Bor Tor 5 and has a property built on it with no real protection from loss, my take on the issue of whether to purchase Por Bor Tor 5 is "yes, if win or lose you are prepared to gamble the sum involved and there are strong signals to suggest the risk is worth it".

On this point, is anyone aware whether Por Bor Tor 5 can "jump directly" to Chanot as my neighbours suggest, or does it need to pass between the various land titles between first? When I raised this point my neighbours looked at each other and thought not, but I am sure I read somewhere it had to go through this process first.

Getting back to my original post and the negative response from Khun Jean with regards my daughters automatic inheritance of the land and property in the event of my wife's death, could you please expand your answer? I would naturally have expected the ownership of the property (offically registered at the land office with permenant electricity bills etc) to form part of my wife's estate. Although I appreciate ownership could not be transferred to myself as I am not a Thai national and therefore unable to own the land, I would have thought the ownership would pass to someone. and not disappear into the ether. Our dual national daughter would have been my first bet to inherit, but is the fact she is only 20 months an issue? Could I become her guardian under Thai law? Or could the land, for e.g., be inherited by my wife's 40 year old brother instead? Or could her brother be the guardian of our daughters inheritance even!?!

Thanks again for your time, interest and responses.

[LivinLOS]

I really shouldnt comment as my ideas on the 'lesser' land titles is very very hazy..

But it was my understanding (based on some sor por kor nung land someone was offering) that these land titles do not convey a right of ownership, I was lead to believe that anything under nor sor gor was basically a 'right to use' the land and that this right to use was often non transferrable. This is why you cant register a lease on some types as its basically a land use title for one person and not a ownership title where they can give you that right, its not actually thiers to give.

Thats the very hazy, not properly researched, impressions I had got when having discussed sor por kor and the infurrance was anything below nor sor gor also.

I also know that here on Phuket connected people have managed to push sor por kor into nor sor sam gor and then also onto chanote. It seemed like a 2 stage process, in that stage one was to change from a land title which gave only useage rights to a title that had ownership rights, and then upgrading from nor sor sam gor was a matter of defining boundries and exact plot info. Of course whether these upgrades were done within the law is entirely another matter.

[Khun Jean]

Problem with this land is the risks. If you know them and it is worth it, you can have a good deal. But always be prepared to walk away when it is not working out as you wished.

Normally it is farm or forest land and it is not under control of the land office. So nothing 'official'. Get a disagreement with the pooyai ban or some other hot shot and look what wil happen.

Best thing is to get that upgrade as fast as possible. And if an upgrade is in the air, people will want to have it.

As their is no 'ownership' registered, willing it is troublesome. Normally it would just go to the children, but if there is money to be made things can change. So the answer of inheritance is 'hopefully yes', can you count on it 'No'.

There are things in your favor, especially the neighbours that already own houses. In this case you are not alone and vulnerable. After three years no trouble, the changes of new trouble is small. So i guess your gamble worked, but wait until the better landtitle before you can 'protect' it.

[watson]

As a neighbour commented, I am looking at it like a plate of ham and eggs. The pig is committed, whereas the chicken is only involved.

My neighbours have set about building beautiful 3m plus value houses and I've spent a bit under 1m on a rentable bungalow with the realism that I may have to walk away from this either because of a divorce or a land grab from a powerful Thai or from government interference.

I think the gamble is worth it - otherwise I would not have done it in the first place - but only time will tell.

Regarding "time", does anyone know if Por Bor Tor 5 can be upgraded to Chanot directly, or does it need to go through the various land titles that are between Por Bor Tor 5 and Chanot? How long does it take? Is my neighbours view that our Por Bor Tor 5 will become Chanot in two years realisitic? Does anyone have any knowledge or experience in the land upgrading process?

Many thanks again