People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[chownah]

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/20...racy/#more-2101

The link does not lead to the quote you give above.......it goes to some other Giles article.

It does. Scroll down to the fifth paragraph.

Samak wasn't the one who brought up October 6. It's one of the first questions of western any reporter unfamliar with Thai prcatice of dancing around this elephant in the living room. Samak just didn't handle it too well, especially during Al-Jazeera interview. Just an old man shooting off his mouth, no sign of intellegence or any other devious plans.

My mistake, indeed it does....also I found this there:

------------

"When I have tried to speak the truth about this I have faced censorship. Back in 2001, the Bangkok Post cut the section of my article which referred to the Palace and then tried to sue me when I complained. Recently, I was invited by ex-senator Chermsak to appear on a live T.V. programme about the 6th October on Mr Sonti’s A.S.T.V. channel. When I mentioned the role of all sectors of the ruling class, including the Palace, Mr Chermsak immediately received a phone call on his mobile from the owner Sonti. This is the same Sonti who was part of the Peoples Alliance for Democracy which complained that Thaksin had censored the media. I was not born yesterday and I know that the State and the business class control the media, but I never thought I would be lucky enough to see this kind of thing with my very own eyes."

-------------

It seems like this is saying that Sonti Liptonkul the chief of PAD censored his talk on ASTV.....I was surprised to find that!!

Chownah

Thaivisa would have had the same reaction had Samak posted that comment on here. Nothing wrong with Sonthi L. calling in and shutting Samak up because a very sensitive subject was mentioned by him. This is the tv station owner taking measures to avoid Lese Majeste or similar charges.

Would Samak have made the same comment on other channels?

You need to read the article in the link....it was not Samak that Sonthi L. censored...it was Giles Ji Ungpakorn whose article Plus was using to support his views on the extent of Samak's involvment in events leading up to the Oct 6 massacre. After finding what Plus had posted (after a false start when I couldn't find it because I hadn't looked thoroughly enough) I also found what I posted above....this is a statement by Giles Ji Ungpakorn that he was censored by Sonthi L. for talking openly about his views on Sonthi L's tv station ASTV. Seems that Sonthi L. was censoring free speach when it came to the massacre.....this is the first time I've read a direct accusation of Sonthi L. behaving badly...I'm wondering if anyone else has any information of a similar nature (dirt on Sonthi L.).

Also....upon going back an looking at the article again it becomes even clearer that Giles Ji Ungpakorn condemns Sonthi L. in that he also says, "The Peoples’ Movement was poisoned by the P.A.D. leadership which dragged too many people into supporting the “yellow-ribbon” coup."

This is the same Giles Ji Ungpakorn and the same article where Plus previously commented in this thread, "Even if I'm not a fan of Giles, he was talking about facts, not his opinions." I'm not sure if I agree with Plus's assessment of the factual nature of Giles's words but it seems that Plus is certain of it....what about you?...do you think that Giles is writing facts....or opinions? Is it a fact that "The Peoples’ Movement was poisoned by the P.A.D. leadership which dragged too many people into supporting the “yellow-ribbon” coup." With of course one of the prime leaders (if not THE prime leader) would be Sonthi L.

Chownah

[Plus]

You can't publicly, on national TV, implicate royal family in 1976 events, or in any other events, for that matter. Giles knows very well that someone, anyone, HAD TO pull him off the air.

[Tony Clifton]

My mistake indeed.

I've read the article and still think Sonthi L. had every right to stop Ji from mentioning a certain subject on HIS studio set.

I'd even say the man is on the ball for catching the action live from elsewhere and calling in live.

Ji was previously censored by the Bangkok Post as well for the very same thing.

He probably thought he would get away with it and slip it by using the spontaneity of live tv, tst tst tst... not when Sonthi is listening.

Some of his books have also been the subject of controversies.

Why is he surprised?

*My wife just mentioned that Ji Upakorn's father had to leave the country back in '76 because of what she called "Samak and his gang".

Edited March 6, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[chownah]

You can't publicly, on national TV, implicate royal family in 1976 events, or in any other events, for that matter. Giles knows very well that someone, anyone, HAD TO pull him off the air.

That's fine but what about the "fact" that "The Peoples’ Movement was poisoned by the P.A.D. leadership which dragged too many people into supporting the “yellow-ribbon” coup.".....or was Giles only speaking fact when he said something you agree with and only giving his opinion when he said something you disagree with?....or do you agree when I suggest it is a "fact".

Chownah

[Thai at Heart]

So if we assume that there are likely to be rallies against the PPP created by the PAD. Does anyone have any idea what the outcome would be?

Another coup? Removal of the Parliament?

If people think that the PAD are some kind of altruistic idealists with only the good of Thailand at heart, I somehow think this to be far from the truth.

[chownah]

So if we assume that there are likely to be rallies against the PPP created by the PAD. Does anyone have any idea what the outcome would be?

Another coup? Removal of the Parliament?

If people think that the PAD are some kind of altruistic idealists with only the good of Thailand at heart, I somehow think this to be far from the truth.

I think it is fair to say that there is wide disagreement on what the outcome would be. Some people think that the PAD can no longer attract large crowds or at least not large enought to force anything....some people think the crowds would be so large that either the gov't would be forced to change or the military would form another dictatorship...some people think the gov't would send the army to crush the demonstrations...some think the demonstrations would send the army to crush the gov't......if you've got a horse you should enter the race!

Chownah

[Thai at Heart]

So if we assume that there are likely to be rallies against the PPP created by the PAD. Does anyone have any idea what the outcome would be?

Another coup? Removal of the Parliament?

If people think that the PAD are some kind of altruistic idealists with only the good of Thailand at heart, I somehow think this to be far from the truth.

I think it is fair to say that there is wide disagreement on what the outcome would be. Some people think that the PAD can no longer attract large crowds or at least not large enought to force anything....some people think the crowds would be so large that either the gov't would be forced to change or the military would form another dictatorship...some people think the gov't would send the army to crush the demonstrations...some think the demonstrations would send the army to crush the gov't......if you've got a horse you should enter the race!

Chownah

Well if the outcome is so ambiguous, it would be best to hope that the PAD thinks very long and hard exactly how it wants to behave. The last thing the country needs is pictures of people on the streets being battered which I fear could happen this time.

[chownah]

So if we assume that there are likely to be rallies against the PPP created by the PAD. Does anyone have any idea what the outcome would be?

Another coup? Removal of the Parliament?

If people think that the PAD are some kind of altruistic idealists with only the good of Thailand at heart, I somehow think this to be far from the truth.

I think it is fair to say that there is wide disagreement on what the outcome would be. Some people think that the PAD can no longer attract large crowds or at least not large enought to force anything....some people think the crowds would be so large that either the gov't would be forced to change or the military would form another dictatorship...some people think the gov't would send the army to crush the demonstrations...some think the demonstrations would send the army to crush the gov't......if you've got a horse you should enter the race!

Chownah

Well if the outcome is so ambiguous, it would be best to hope that the PAD thinks very long and hard exactly how it wants to behave. The last thing the country needs is pictures of people on the streets being battered which I fear could happen this time.

I think its fair to say that everyone here hopes that the outcome will not include violence....except perhaps for Plus's internal representation of Samak who will be cheering the massacre.

Chownah

P.S. I really want to be sure that everyone knows that what I meant above is that Plus's internal representation of Samak is cheering the massacre...and NOT that Plus is cheering it...I think that Plus hopes for a non-violent outcome like the rest of us.

Chownah

Edited March 6, 2008 by chownah

[Plus]

You can't publicly, on national TV, implicate royal family in 1976 events, or in any other events, for that matter. Giles knows very well that someone, anyone, HAD TO pull him off the air.

That's fine but what about the "fact" that "The Peoples’ Movement was poisoned by the P.A.D. leadership which dragged too many people into supporting the “yellow-ribbon” coup.".....or was Giles only speaking fact when he said something you agree with and only giving his opinion when he said something you disagree with?....or do you agree when I suggest it is a "fact".

Chownah

"Dragged people into supporting the "yellow-ribbon" coup" - people were off the streets for more than half a year when the coup happened, PAD leadership was no where to be seen and people pretty much made their own minds. Do you remember the time frame? It was only two years ago.

"giving his opinion when he said something you disagree with" - I don't disagree with his assessment of 1976 events. I said it's not appropriate, and even illegal, to discuss some aspects of it on national TV.

"Plus's internal representation of Samak" - I base my judgement of Samak's involvement on the words of Giles and Chang Noi you mentioned yourself and countless other articles from the days when he ran for Bangkok Governor's post, all corroborated and nicely summarised in the relevant wikipedia article. I'm afraid you are completely alone in your stubborn and irrational insistence that Samak's cheerleading of the massacre is a fantasy.

And please, don't make an excuse that you read those accounts differently. You can misinterpret even simple, one sentence posts, i.e. "You can't publicly, on national TV, implicate royal family in 1976 events," as a sign of disagreement with the facts.

[seonai]

I feel the answer is very simple, there will be big problems and possible bloodshed in Thailand in the coming months/years and this will intensify as matters carry on. I am very sad about this but understand that it will happen in a nation that has never been colonised and has intense internal politics that need sorting out as well as issues like the Drug War and the South. Thailand had a chance and I feel it has blown it...

[Prakanong]

I feel the answer is very simple, there will be big problems and possible bloodshed in Thailand in the coming months/years and this will intensify as matters carry on. I am very sad about this but understand that it will happen in a nation that has never been colonised and has intense internal politics that need sorting out as well as issues like the Drug War and the South. Thailand had a chance and I feel it has blown it...

What does colonisation have to do with it?

Do you think that countries that were colonised do better than those that were not?

Is this the old look at the old British colonies argument?

[seonai]

Colonisation has nothing to do with it, I mean that Thailand is over proud (and quite rightly) that it was never colonised and anway I am dreadfully sleepy and need to bed down if you don't mind my dear

[Prakanong]

Colonisation has nothing to do with it, I mean that Thailand is over proud (and quite rightly) that it was never colonised and anway I am dreadfully sleepy and need to bed down if you don't mind my dear

OK - I just wondered at the coloniation bit

I agree with you on Thailand being over proud about tis.

The jury is still out on why it as not - Thai's and their supporters say it as wiley old Mongut playing Britain and France off against each other while opening up some trade to meet basic requirements of the European powers.

The other school of thought is that France and Britian had no need for any more on thailand than they alrady had and did not want to get into a spat over a piece of land so far from home with little value to them cdompared to the surrounding lands they had.

Then there is the nonesense about war's etc. They capitulated to the Japanese and tried to declare war on the allies and it was only the USA stopping it that reparations were not paid after WW2. T

hey also sent lot of men to fight in Vietnam, 13,000?, where like the Americans they were beaten.

Have a good sleep.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Prakanong

[Plus]

I believe it was a rebellious ambassador to the US who refused to deliver declaration of war that saved Thailand's ass from reparations and sanctions.

[Prakanong]

I believe it was a rebellious ambassador to the US who refused to deliver declaration of war that saved Thailand's ass from reparations and sanctions.

Yes - and he joined the Free Thai movement did he not?

"Whilst the Thai ambassador in London delivered Thailand's declaration of war to the British government, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj, the Thai ambassador to Washington, refused to do so. Instead, he considered organising a resistance movement in the United States."

Giles's father Puey Ungpakorn was also prominent in the Free Thai movement from Britian where I beleive he was studying when war broke out. He was Rector of Thammasat too at the time of October 6th and was lucky to getaway to London with his life so that might explain a lot about Giles's interest too.

It was probably two things that saved Thailand from reparations. The Free Thai movements influential members and America's opposition to colonization.

[sriracha john]

Returning, for a moment, to the topic of the thread...

PAD planning to start demonstrating by the end of this month

Mr. Somkiat Pongpaiboon, a Democrat party-list MP and People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)'s core member, claims that many members of the public are calling for the PAD to restart its demonstration against the government.

Mr. Somkiat says the PAD members have analyzed the situation and they have agreed to organize another movement. He says the PAD does not to call such act a gathering, but it is a movement of people who have had enough of the present situation.

He says the movement is scheduled to take place in the end of this month. He says the activities during the movement have been arranged, and they will be peaceful and under the constitution.

The PAD’s core member also asks the public to monitor the establishment of a civil servant union, as it has never happened before in the last 75 years.

- ThaiNews

[Plus]

Laters transfer of investigators working on SC Asset case only adds fuel to the fire.

We also have Rural Doctor Society beefed up by various other activists preparing a rally against Public Health minister while Morchit Taxi Scam club is ready to confront them because the minister is a nice guy and should be given a chance [to cancel cheap medicine for poor folks].

Thai democracy in action. Down with the elites. Let taxi drivers thrash out inernational trade issues and compulsory licensing in the street battles.

Wan might lead the charge. He, btw, admitted that he hasn't given up either smoking or drinking. He has given up his salary to some foundation instead.

[Tony Clifton]

PAD planning to start demonstrating by the end of this month

I think they're only bluffing for now in calling for demonstrations in order to see how the govt. will react, which will probably be a very quick political suicide.

April.

[younghusband]

I believe it was a rebellious ambassador to the US who refused to deliver declaration of war that saved Thailand's ass from reparations and sanctions.

It was Seni Pramoj, a truly great man, who in David Wyatt's words "chose to regard his government's declaration of war against the United States as illegal and unrepresentative of the Thai people's wishes".The US had its own reasons after the war to veto the British preference for harsh reparations but Seni's act of courage gave them the legal wherewithal.

Sdeni was a man steeped in the best of the Western liberal tradition as well as a Thai patriot through and through.Would he have supported an illegal coup by a bunch of military goons? I don't think I need to answer that.Seni's proud record speaks for itself.He was certainly an elitist and a traditionalist (though with an Oxford honed brilliant mind) and would have had an aristocratic disdain for Thaksin and Samak.But he never would have resorted to the treachery of the likes of Sondhi.

[A_Traveller]

Now we get to the truth behind YH's perspective. Clearly it would appear that a country run by an aristocratic royalist {in the broadest meaning of the word} grouping would appeal. However, unfortunately, Seni Pramoj, was not so great. His personal animosity to Pridi {then Regent} contributed to the tragic post war political state of affairs, for example accusing Pridi of embezzlement of anti-Japanese funds provided by the Allies to OSS {500,000 USD}, which was shown to be totally fabricated. In addition, there is evidence to show that he was an active promulgator of the claim of Piridi's involvement in an event in '46, which led to Pridi's effective exile.

Further, he served as PM thrice, as well as, in 1947, being given a cabinet portfolio in a coup installed government, with which he and other members of the Democrat Party colluded to install. He was also PM during the Thammasat University Massacre of 6 October 1976.

Regards

PS One last point on this 'not delivering the declaration of war', as Ambassador he had no authority to withhold and the declaration {also delivered to the UK & Australia} was extant. The US State Department were more focused then, on direction from the President, on ensuring that Britain would not expand its interests, post war, and this useful fiction assisted the US to veto plans for annexation, which were discussed by Britain & China at one stage, or reparations.

[sriracha john]

Now we have Noppadope's assessment... having democracy in action displays would be looked upon unfavorably by other countries that enjoy the same liberties...

Foreign Affairs Minister says PADs protest will damage countrys image

The Foreign Affairs Minister, Noppadon Pattama, expresses his concern over an announcement by the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) that it will rally, adding that the protest will affect Thailand's image on political stability.

Noppadon says his ministry has been improving the national image since the September 19th coup in order to maintain good relations with foreign countries and revive investor confidence.

The minister also suggests that PAD should respect peoples consensus reflected in the government as the international communities only approve countries which are democratic and abide by laws.

However, he says diplomatic missions in Thailand have not paid special attention to the matter, but they will definitely report the protest situation to their government.

Noppadon also says demonstrations are allowed as long as they are staged peacefully and legally. He affirms the government will take legal action against PAD if it causes trouble to other people.

- ThaiNews

====================================================================

Once again, PAD has not been violent, which is something Noppadope's fellow Cabinet Minister, PM's Office Minister Jakrapob is well aware of... when he stated the same earlier.... Noppadope is parroting the same disingenuous rhetoric as before....

He also warned the PAD not to stage any violent activity against Thaksin's return, because it could dampen hope for an improved economy.

So without Thaksin's safe & un-protested return, the PPP-led coalition government might fail, to deliver upon all their pre-election promises to improve the economy ? Well that's a new excuse, anyway ! Full marks for originality & creativity.

With an extra special gold star for hypocrisy & audacity...

PM's Office Minister Jakrapob:

who was arrested and charged as a leader and an instigator of this:

and this:

is now warning the victims of violence like this:

and this:

NOT to use violence in their protests...

Edited March 8, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

More on Noppadope's misplaced threats... when he should be informing Jakrapob's mob of these curtailments....

Foreign Minister warns against anti-government activities

The Finance Minister warned the People's Alliance for Democracy to beware of its activities as the current government will not tolerate any mob rules that used to occur before the coup.

As the People's Alliance for Democracy or PAD recently came out to announce that it might possibly resume its political activities, Finance Minister Noppadol Pattama commented that such decisions may damage the country's image which is being gradually restored after the new government was elected under the democratic system.

Noppadol said the PAD should not conduct any activities that could affect the overall image of the nation, adding that the government will not accept the mob rules anymore as it will destroy the whole country.

The Foreign Minister also expressed that some of PAD's key figures are members of political parties which means that PAD's moves may be involved with the political benefits. However, the minister says that political gatherings can be held, but under the constitution and in peace.

Noppadol admitted that he has talked to former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on the phone, but their conversation had nothing to do with politics. *Thaksin just needed to share the Phad Thai recipes he got from his phone conversations with Samak*

- Thailand Outlook

[marshbags]

Bangkok post breaking news, latest, 08-03-2008

Noppadon:

Govt won't tolerate activists' movement

Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama said Saturday that the government would take drastic action against movements by activist groups because their actions would tarnish Thailand's image in the eyes of the international community.

Speaking to journalists, Mr. Noppadon, former legal adviser to ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, said he was concerned about the government's attempts to improve the country's image after the activist group, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), had renewed its activities during the past two weeks.

The PAD's movements could send wrong signals to foreign countries that Thailand's political stability was still not secure, and this could deter foreigners from investing in the country, he said.

Unquote.

Ref url :- http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=126388

OH DEAR, I FEAR OUR PREDICTIONS ARE ABOUT TO BE REALISED.

Democracy ( That is forever being shoved down our throats ) my foot, the present government haven,t a clue of it,s meaning.

As for Thailands IMAGE, what a joke that is, and how ironic coming from Thaksins right hand man who is party to all that is unfolding before us in a very negative way, Big time.

marshbags

Edited March 8, 2008 by marshbags

[marshbags]

I do get on occasions get B.Embassy emails that give out warnings about various safety issues in relation to Thailand.

Usually generated by statements of the likes of the one in my previous post.

I,ll share the part of it that is relevant to the present political situation and threat of trouble that could be in the making as a result.

Quote

Political Situation

Thailand Country Profile

On 19 September 2006, there was a coup against the Thai civilian government and martial law was imposed throughout the country. Martial law has since been lifted in 41 provinces including Bangkok but it remains in 35 other provinces.

General elections took place in Thailand on 23 December 2007, and the King endorsed the new Thai Government on 6 February but the political situation remains uncertain. Former Prime Minister, Shinawatra returned to Bangkok on 28 February. You should exercise caution and avoid any demonstrations or large gatherings of people. You should also keep yourself informed of developments, including by regularly checking this advice.

Unquote.

You will note the mention of the return of a certain individual who is obviously deemed a possible cause for unrest ??????

Possible in the sarcastic mode of course.

marshbags

Edited March 8, 2008 by marshbags

[Tony Clifton]

Noppadon: Govt won't tolerate activists' movement

Scumbags are ready to cause civil war, jail whoever they want so they can go back to their mafia style business and politics, free the Little Emperor of all charges, put him back in the driver`s seat plus implant the casinos they want so much. They keep coming up with controversies once elected and they will push it to the limit, as Thaksin always did.

They are pointing fingers at PAD for instigating violence when the most violent acts came from PPP/TRT supporters in the first place, some of them even going as far as committing suicide by crashing into a tank or hanging from a bridge.

They are going to hurt most if violence erupts and I doubt the army will be as forgiving this time around.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[younghusband]

Now we get to the truth behind YH's perspective. Clearly it would appear that a country run by an aristocratic royalist {in the broadest meaning of the word} grouping would appeal. However, unfortunately, Seni Pramoj, was not so great. His personal animosity to Pridi {then Regent} contributed to the tragic post war political state of affairs, for example accusing Pridi of embezzlement of anti-Japanese funds provided by the Allies to OSS {500,000 USD}, which was shown to be totally fabricated. In addition, there is evidence to show that he was an active promulgator of the claim of Piridi's involvement in an event in '46, which led to Pridi's effective exile.

Further, he served as PM thrice, as well as, in 1947, being given a cabinet portfolio in a coup installed government, with which he and other members of the Democrat Party colluded to install. He was also PM during the Thammasat University Massacre of 6 October 1976.

Regards

PS One last point on this 'not delivering the declaration of war', as Ambassador he had no authority to withhold and the declaration {also delivered to the UK & Australia} was extant. The US State Department were more focused then, on direction from the President, on ensuring that Britain would not expand its interests, post war, and this useful fiction assisted the US to veto plans for annexation, which were discussed by Britain & China at one stage, or reparations.

An aristocratic (in the broadest sense) led democracy headed by a strictly prescribed and constitutional monarchy isn't so bad.Seni was certainly more than a bit ambivalent towards Pridi who himself was no unqualified paragon (though I admire him).To that extent Seni was a child of his times, thinking Pridi to be a commie.One has to exercise a certain amount of historical context given the long passage of time since these events.

Incidentally of course Seni had no authority not to deliver the declaration of war.The gesture's value was symbolic and as you say permitted the US to rein in the UK's wish for reparations.

[chownah]

I got a bit excited when I first read the headline "Noppadon: Govt won't tolerate activists' movement"....then when I checked out more fully what Nappadon had said I was reassured by his comment, "However, the minister says that political gatherings can be held, but under the constitution and in peace."....so.....if he is to be believed (some people do and some people don't) then this is just right thing.....political gatherings can be held as long as they are done lawfully.....that is a good policy....that is what the laws call for....it is good that Nappadon is stating the he will uphold the law.

Chownah

[KireB]

I got a bit excited when I first read the headline "Noppadon: Govt won't tolerate activists' movement"....then when I checked out more fully what Nappadon had said I was reassured by his comment, "However, the minister says that political gatherings can be held, but under the constitution and in peace."....so.....if he is to be believed (some people do and some people don't) then this is just right thing.....political gatherings can be held as long as they are done lawfully.....that is a good policy....that is what the laws call for....it is good that Nappadon is stating the he will uphold the law.

Chownah

So, he won't tolerate unlawful gatherings! That is good news indeed.

I'm just curious what is perceived as lawful and unlawful in this country.

Can imagine that any attempt to protest against this democratically chosen government or mr. T is beforehand deemed unlawful.

[seonai]

I said it before... there will be blood shed in Bangkok again, it's heading that way

[chownah]

I said it before... there will be blood shed in Bangkok again, it's heading that way

I certainly has happened before....several times...so it seems like a real possibility for the future. Having the military take over the country every few years certainly seems like it would encourage people to think that th use of guns is appropriate.....at least with the last coup no one was shot...so maybe......but you know, realistically, don't you think that if you want to inculcate an appreciation for non-violence that it would be better if they didn't have a military coup every few years....as a starter?...don't you think that it sends the wrong message?

Chownah

Edited March 9, 2008 by chownah