Thai Literature

[Ulysses G.]

You are wrong.

These households might not have the boring old crap that you seem so impressed by, but many will have modern classics like Catcher in the Rye, Catch 22, Power of One, Lord of the Flies, A Clockwork Orange, Henry Miller, Graham Greene, Orwell, Camus, Brave New World, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Hemingway and many other wonderful works written in modern English.

Great books that intelligent, modern people actually want to read.

I beg to differ.

I'd bet a month's salary that if you did a straw poll of 100 people in a typical (let's say) Nottingham high street or Plano Texas shopping mall, less than ten could give you the titles of two Graham Greene novels, let alone have read them, or could tell you who wrote The Outsider.

PS . . modern intelligent people do NOT want to read the Power of One.

(And, for the record, I have everything Greene ever wrote, most of them in very valuable first UK edition format)

I reject your criteria for picking knowledgeable readers.

You are talking about old granny librarians or gay professors who teach English Literature or goofy bookworms with big, thick glasses, not serious readers who also have other lives.

I own a small chain of bookstores and have been a compulsive reader since I was a child, but I only remember the titles of a few Graham Greene novels (he was not overly popular back home and I only started reading him since I came to Thailand). Why should your average person remember them all?

I can tell you who wrote the Outsider because it happens to be one of my favorite novels, however, some people have never read Camus, but they have read many of the books that are heralded as the best books of the Century. I don't love them all, but most of them are pretty darn good in my opinion.

I buy average people's libraries all the time and very few of them have nothing but Stephen King. They usually have a mixture of titles including some trashy fun reading and a number the old-timey classics that you seem to go for and a good number of modern classics as well. When I question them about their favorites, it is easy to see that they have actually read and understood most of the books and their favorites are usually the better ones.

By the way, "The Power of One" is already considered to be a modern classic by us in the business. It is too bad it is not dull and old-fashioned enough for he likes of you.

[Jingthing]

Time - Chart Korbjitti (and his other novels)

Jasmine Nights - S.P.Somtow

Monsoon Country - Pira Sudham (who actually only writes in English) Also his other novels

Sightseeing - Rattawut Lapcharoensap

Behind the Painting - Siburapha

OK, I have read some of these in the translation. Even translated, in my not so humble opinion, they are good writers, but not world class, and not even world class if "handicapped" for Thai culture as one poster suggests (which I find absurd). This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Thailand. Rather it means the art of the novel is not very developed in Thailand. Why can't people just accept this? Thailand also isn't much of an ice hockey world power. Why the need for the value judgements, as if all countries have to produce compelling literature or ice hockey?

Edited March 5, 2008 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Time - Chart Korbjitti (and his other novels)

Jasmine Nights - S.P.Somtow

Monsoon Country - Pira Sudham (who actually only writes in English) Also his other novels

Sightseeing - Rattawut Lapcharoensap

Behind the Painting - Siburapha

OK, I have read some of these in the translation. Even translated, in my not so humble opinion, they are good writers, but not world class, and not even world class if "handicapped" for Thai culture as one poster suggests (which I find absurd). This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Thailand. Rather it means the art of the novel is not very developed in Thailand. Why can't people just accept this? Thailand also isn't much of an ice hockey world power. Why the need for the value judgements, as if all countries have to produce compelling literature or ice hockey?

I have read many of these that were translated into English also, and Jingthing is right. Some are not bad, but none are world class either!

[sriracha john]

Time - Chart Korbjitti (and his other novels)

Jasmine Nights - S.P.Somtow

Monsoon Country - Pira Sudham (who actually only writes in English) Also his other novels

Sightseeing - Rattawut Lapcharoensap

Behind the Painting - Siburapha

OK, I have read some of these in the translation. Even translated, in my not so humble opinion, they are good writers, but not world class, and not even world class if "handicapped" for Thai culture as one poster suggests (which I find absurd). This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Thailand. Rather it means the art of the novel is not very developed in Thailand. Why can't people just accept this? Thailand also isn't much of an ice hockey world power. Why the need for the value judgements, as if all countries have to produce compelling literature or ice hockey?

and yet... that wasn't the premise for the OP at all.... which was there was NO Thai literature and that they don't write ANY novels...

I was talking with a friend while I was out of the country and he has been told there is no Thai literature. In other words, Thais don't write novels.

which has been thoroughly disproven...

In regards to translated versions of any book into any other language. How much is "Lost in Translation" to borrow the movie title?

How much of Dickens profound usage of words is missing when read in Urdu?

How much of the Thai books above are lost when read in English?

[Ulysses G.]

They have novels for sure, but the Thai equivalent of Tolstoy or Hemingway, I really, really don't think so.

There are a number available in translation.

If you look at it this way, I think we all can agree that the greatest Thai writer of all time is probably somewhere on the same level as Jake Needham who wrote, "The Big Mango".

[bendix]

I reject your criteria for picking knowledgeable readers.

You are talking about old granny librarians or gay professors who teach English Literature or goofy bookworms with big, thick glasses, not serious readers who also have other lives.

The original discussion questioned whether there was a Thai literature and a couple of posters pointed out that few Thai people seemed to read anything of quality. I made the point that the same could be said of most 'ordinary' people in the UK or US. I stand by that and I repeat - I doubt very much that many normal households in those countries would have Huxley, Trollope or any quality books on their shelves.

I think that's a pretty good definition of a literary-conscious society.

My point is that so called civilised society isnt much more advanced than Thailand in this regard.

[Ulysses G.]

I reject your criteria for picking knowledgeable readers.

You are talking about old granny librarians or gay professors who teach English Literature or goofy bookworms with big, thick glasses, not serious readers who also have other lives.

The original discussion questioned whether there was a Thai literature and a couple of posters pointed out that few Thai people seemed to read anything of quality. I made the point that the same could be said of most 'ordinary' people in the UK or US. I stand by that and I repeat - I doubt very much that many normal households in those countries would have Huxley, Trollope or any quality books on their shelves.

You don't think that many ordinary people in the U.S. and U.K. have Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, 1984 and Animal Farm by George Orwell, Catcher in the Rye by Salinger, Lord of the Flies by Wiiliam Golding, Papillon by Henri Charriere, White Teeth by Zadie Smith, Life of Pi by Yan Martel, Wild Swans by June Chang, etc., etc. on their bookshelves?

These are exactly the kind of quality books that most people are looking for and that I can't get enough of and the people who ask for them aren't usually geniuses either.

[Jingjok]

The original discussion questioned whether there was a Thai literature and a couple of posters pointed out that few Thai people seemed to read anything of quality. I made the point that the same could be said of most 'ordinary' people in the UK or US. I stand by that and I repeat - I doubt very much that many normal households in those countries would have Huxley, Trollope or any quality books on their shelves.

I think that's a pretty good definition of a literary-conscious society.

My point is that so called civilised society isnt much more advanced than Thailand in this regard.

If by 'civilised society' you include the UK, I agree. I'd say it was once much more advanced in this regard, but is no longer.

That is why many of the citizens who have the economic power to do so, left.

[Payboy]

[younghusband]

In reply to Jingthings comment - comparing Thai literature against the "greats" of Western literature is a bit difficult. Again, it comes down to our perception and understanding of things - authors like Tolstoy and Hemmingway are seen as great in Western culture as the content is easy to identify with Western culture. To an Asian whose cultural percepions and values are different, they would identify or relate to Asian subject matter more so than they would to Western influences in literature.

So yes, Tolstoy and Hemmingway are great authors, but does that put them in a higher/better class than Thai authors of similar but local standing? No, I don't believe it does - what is "great" is relative to our perceptions and cultural values

This is relativism gone mad, and only comprehensible for those who believe say that primitive tribal scrawlings are "equivalent in value" to Michaelangelo or Rembrandt:there is no conceivable argument that Thai literature is distinguished in a world context unlike say Japanese or Chinese literature.As a point of detail, Hemingway and Tolstoy should not really be categorised together, as one represents only talent but the other genius.The other misapprehension is that Western and Asian culture somehow predominate over the broad human spirit.No Chinese or Japanese scholar of literature would support a different interpretation.

[bendix]

You don't think that many ordinary people in the U.S. and U.K. have Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, 1984 and Animal Farm by George Orwell, Catcher in the Rye by Salinger, Lord of the Flies by Wiiliam Golding, Papillon by Henri Charriere, White Teeth by Zadie Smith, Life of Pi by Yan Martel, Wild Swans by June Chang, etc., etc. on their bookshelves?

These are exactly the kind of quality books that most people are looking for and that I can't get enough of and the people who ask for them aren't usually geniuses either.

No, i seriously don't.

I think your view of ordinary people is shaped by those who come into your shops seeking them; thus you get a distorted sense of ordinary people. You're neglecting the tens of millions of people (in the UK for example) who can barely retain enough interest in reading to get past page three of the Sun newspaper. Educated ordinary people who like bookshops might all want those titles, I agree, but not the seething masses.

I should know. I was part of them. I grew up in a household where the only book I remember seeing was Ali's The Greatest. I don't think my bookless background was particularly unusual.

[Jingthing]

As far as Americans having and reading good books, I do think this is on the decline but still way ahead of Thailand. When I grew up, in my middle class suburban neighborhood, probably half of the households featured libraries with good literature, and good books and reading were heavily promoted in my cultural environment. Also, there is no doubt books make a difference in young people's lives. I really think I would be a different person if I hadn't read Naked Lunch when I was 12 years old.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingjok]

You're neglecting the tens of millions of people (in the UK for example) who can barely retain enough interest in reading to get past page three of the Sun newspaper.

What? The Sun has more than three pages? Are you sure?

[Ulysses G.]

As far as Americans having and reading good books, I do think this is on the decline but still way ahead of Thailand. When I grew up, in my middle class suburban neighborhood, probably half of the households featured libraries with good literature, and good books and reading were heavily promoted in my cultural environment.

This is how I feel also.

I also think that Brits tend to read even better quality books than Canadians and Americans. This is based on the used books that I buy from overseas. England has the best quality and they are easily available.

That doesn't mean that lots of farangs don't enjoy reading, but lots of them do. I don't find that to be true with the Thais at all.

[HS Mauberley]

Like the overwhelming majority of posters, I don't speak Thai well enough to have a valid opinion on the quality of Thai literature but I do think that it's fair to say that Thailand is not a society which places enormous value on literature. Saying this is not necessarily a criticism of Thailand - all cultures pick out different problems to solve and choose different value-systems within which they operate. And I agree with Bendix that's it's easy to be misled about how literate British society is because (i) the overwhelming majority of books sold in Britain aren't fit to wipe your arse on (Harry Potter anyone?) and (ii) the literate classes are tiny; a few people buy a lot of good books but if you look at what is sold in the book section of UK eBay, which I think is a fair representation of the reading profile of the average Briton, it's mile after mile after mile of the most worthless trash.

[Xangsamhua]

Sorry, I am just not buying it. Thailand may have literature but it clearly is not a great literature loving culture.

You could say the same about most western cultures. I'd be interested to see how many UK households have Trollope, Austen or any of the English classics on their shelves. Richard Branson's crappy autobiography perhaps. Stephen Pile's book of lists.

But not real literature . . . .

Same for the US or Australia.

Australians used to be a reading people - not just books, but also periodicals (like the "Bulletin") that included short stories and poetry as well as feature articles on politics and economics. Working men in the 19th and early 20th century often read demanding literature in an effort to educate, improve and liberate themselves. The Mechanics Institutes libraries were widespread and evening classes run by the Workers' Education Association were well attended. This was a product of the strengthening labour movement (the trade unions and the Labour Party) and the belief that a well educated working man (they were mainly men) could make a difference in society and become a leader. I don't think Thailand has gone through that stage of development yet, so challenging and provocative literature doesn't have a large market outside the Bangkok middle class. When people have been told all their lives to "leave it to the phuyai" (Dr Thaksin used to say this to journalists all the time), they're not going to be encouraged to read demanding texts and those texts won't appear to apply to them.

I don't know what Australians have on their shelves now, but if they studied Year 12 English, a compulsory subject in most states, they'd most likely still have the high quality novels and plays they read in that year. I know my kids have. Do Thai kids study Thai literature in M6? I must find out.

Rather than belittle Thai literature or "talk up" books and authors wouldn't it be better to encourage a greater sense of participation and empowerment among Thai people. The Issarn people can now make and break governments. Maybe the critical literacy revolution will begin there?

[Jingjok]

... I also think that Brits tend to read even better quality books than Canadians and Americans. This is based on the used books that I buy from overseas. England has the best quality and they are easily available ...

Probably because we buy the things to look good on the shelves, never read them, then flog them off to you

[bbw]

sorry if someone already posted this, wanted to share this website but not enough time to read all the posts!

anyway, if you have any doubt about whether Thai literature exists --

http://www.thaifiction.com/

read some of the short stories, venom is a nice start. but remember that literature in translation is never as good as literature in its original language. aside from all the shorthand references that will probably be lost on you, cadence and lyricism can be really hard to translate (especially when moving from a tonal language to a non-tonal one).

most notable thai authors (and i mean literature and not just pop fiction) are not available in translation, which is a total bummer.

[Ulysses G.]

(i) the overwhelming majority of books sold in Britain aren't fit to wipe your arse on (Harry Potter anyone?) and (ii) the literate classes are tiny; a few people buy a lot of good books but if you look at what is sold in the book section of UK eBay, which I think is a fair representation of the reading profile of the average Briton, it's mile after mile after mile of the most worthless trash.

I think that you have been taken in by those who think that pretentiousness equals intelligence - the condescending, phony, boring old <deleted> who claim to understand Ulysses by Joyce, but can't even tie their own shoelaces.

Just because a book is enjoyable reading, doesn't make it "worthless trash". They keep you going. I read Harry Potter and Ian Rankin in between Camus, Bill Bryson, Paul Auster and Salinger and I love them all!

Edited March 6, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[sceadugenga]

Anyone who's been around since the 1950's will tell you that 90% of people stopped reading when TV came in.

Good literature is what you enjoy. Great literature is what they made you read at school. (Apart from Steinbeck).

[longway]

They have novels for sure, but the Thai equivalent of Tolstoy or Hemingway, I really, really don't think so.

There are a number available in translation.

If you look at it this way, I think we all can agree that the greatest Thai writer of all time is probably somewhere on the same level as Jake Needham who wrote, "The Big Mango".

the big mango is good, but not THAT good. There are some very good thai writers around. whether they are world class or not, i will leave it to you literary connoisseurs to condescend to each other.

however, the fact that you are reading a translation seems to escape you. as talented as the translator is, you are only getting a second hand view of the author. how can you possibly judge the prose of the book through a translation? english and thai are very different languages.

i agree that thailand does not have a huge literary culture, as far as novels are concerned for sure, but they have their own traditions in poetry, plays and folk theatre. in the end they may not be that great, but until you can appreciate the language how can you possibly judge how good it is.

Edited March 6, 2008 by longway

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who's been around since the 1950's will tell you that 90% of people stopped reading when TV came in.

Good literature is what you enjoy. Great literature is what they made you read at school. (Apart from Steinbeck).

Maybe the U.S. is better about that. Most of the older authors and titles that I've mentioned as "modern classics" - like Salinger, Heller and Hemingway - were required reading when I was growing up. Teachers in the U.S. looked for books that students would actually enjoy. That is one reason that I fell in love with reading.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[madjbs]

however, the fact that you are reading a translation seems to escape you. as talented as the translator is, you are only getting a second hand view of the author. how can you possibly judge the prose of the book through a translation? english and thai are very different languages.

This is exactly my point as well, unless you can read Thai fluently then you simply can not judge this literature, it is impossible. That is why claiming to know how good an author is after reading a translation of their work is just laughable.

[younghusband]

Like the overwhelming majority of posters, I don't speak Thai well enough to have a valid opinion on the quality of Thai literature but I do think that it's fair to say that Thailand is not a society which places enormous value on literature. Saying this is not necessarily a criticism of Thailand - all cultures pick out different problems to solve and choose different value-systems within which they operate. And I agree with Bendix that's it's easy to be misled about how literate British society is because (i) the overwhelming majority of books sold in Britain aren't fit to wipe your arse on (Harry Potter anyone?) and (ii) the literate classes are tiny; a few people buy a lot of good books but if you look at what is sold in the book section of UK eBay, which I think is a fair representation of the reading profile of the average Briton, it's mile after mile after mile of the most worthless trash.

It's good to read books in their original language but , subject to first class translation, not essential to grasp the genius of great writers.

I don't really understand your comment on British literacy (I think you mean critical taste).We were not talking about that but about the quality of literature various countries have produced over the centuries.England ranks very high and Thailand rather low, which doesn't mean there aren't many Thai authors (alright, a few) worth reading.

[HS Mauberley]

I don't really understand your comment on British literacy (I think you mean critical taste).We were not talking about that but about the quality of literature various countries have produced over the centuries.England ranks very high and Thailand rather low, which doesn't mean there aren't many Thai authors (alright, a few) worth reading.

My comment wasn't about literacy; it was about how literary the society is. That is, how involved with books it is. And I wouldn't argue that Britain has a longer and deeper history of authorship than Thailand. Nor would I argue over whether there are Thai authors worth reading. What I was pointing out was that the gap in the literary values of Thailand and those of England are probably less than many seem to say.

Just because a book is enjoyable reading, doesn't make it "worthless trash".

That's true but it's a fallacy to think that enjoyable reading is therefore not worthless trash and I'm afraid that Harry Potter falls squarely into that camp - cardboard characters, wooden dialogue, dreadful, predictable plots.

[Ulysses G.]

That's true but it's a fallacy to think that enjoyable reading is therefore not worthless trash and I'm afraid that Harry Potter falls squarely into that camp - cardboard characters, wooden dialogue, dreadful, predictable plots.

I would not call any books that are sought out, loved and treasured by so many readers of every age "worthless" - not your taste perhaps.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[chuckacinco]

I teach English language literature at an IB (International Baccalaureate) school in Bangkok.

There has been a recent move for IB schools to offer an equivalent Thai literature course of study. There are of course literature studies in French, Spanish and every other major language.

Attached are the IB selections of works that Professor Chusak Pattarakulvanit from Thammasat and other Thai teachers have chosen as a course of study if students elect to study Thai Literature at the diploma level. It's in Thai and you might need to change your computer to Thai language to read the .pdf file.

Perhaps this will be helpful in answering which great Thai literary works need to be studied on par with the traditional English language equivalent.

chuckacinco

ThaiLiteratureIB.pdf

[Xangsamhua]

I teach English language literature at an IB (International Baccalaureate) school in Bangkok.

There has been a recent move for IB schools to offer an equivalent Thai literature course of study. There are of course literature studies in French, Spanish and every other major language.

Attached are the IB selections of works that Professor Chusak Pattarakulvanit from Thammasat and other Thai teachers have chosen as a course of study if students elect to study Thai Literature at the diploma level. It's in Thai and you might need to change your computer to Thai language to read the .pdf file.

Perhaps this will be helpful in answering which great Thai literary works need to be studied on par with the traditional English language equivalent.

chuckacinco

ThaiLiteratureIB.pdf

Thank you for attaching this, Chuckacinco. I shall show it to Thai administrators at our (bilingual) school.

It looks like a good range of works grouped into Ayudhaya, Rattanakosin, Pre-WW2, Post-WW2 and mixed periods. I'm in no position to judge the comparative "quality" of the works, but I'd say they've all had a wide impact on Thai thought, at least among the political and literary classes. There are some that have been translated into English, e.g. Kukrit Pramoj's "Four Reigns" and Botan's "Letters from Thailand".

Literature that people can identify with and/or that empowers them in some way will always have a readership. If there are Thai literary works that do that, I don't see how they can be judged inferior to the literature of another nation, even if the latter has a bigger market.

[chuckacinco]

My pleasure to help.

Regarding great literature or art "de gustibas non disputandum est" (there is no disputing about taste).

Anyone who has studied persuasive writing or persuasive anything knows taste can never be argued successfully but it's fun seeing people have a go.

Regarding Shakespeare, I'm waiting for someone to write Romeo and Juliet in Bargirl "Romeo, Romeo. Where you go?"

chuckacinco

[Xangsamhua]

My pleasure to help.

Regarding great literature or art "de gustibas non disputandum est" (there is no disputing about taste).

Anyone who has studied persuasive writing or persuasive anything knows taste can never be argued successfully but it's fun seeing people have a go.

Regarding Shakespeare, I'm waiting for someone to write Romeo and Juliet in Bargirl "Romeo, Romeo. Where you go?"

chuckacinco

What a brilliant idea! I'm a bit out of touch (with BG lingo) but I'm sure someone on thaivisa could do this.