Men Surely Have No Idea...

[RueFang]

Fantastic info Sheryl, thanks so much for that...I will definitely look into progesterone cream more. 10 days is rough, you poor thing! Mine 'only' lasts about 3 and yes, I NEED to eat dark chocolate in this time and would, without hesitation, kill or chop appendages off to get it! I must have some innate knowledge what my body needs as I always crave soy milk and dark chocolate when I'm pmsing, how funny! Although I think soy is high in plant estrogens so I should probably avoid it.

Nidge, I make a special trip into town (live way out in the boonies!) for the sole purpose of purchasing dark chocolate, the need is so great! I don't eat it any other time except on these days, so if you have access to a 7/11 they should sell it there

[Sheryl]

Yeah, I forget the brand name but the 7-Elevens are carrying a fairly dark chocolate these days, has the % written on it somewhere. (I keep track of such vital matters)

I once saw a Tee shirt that read :I have PMS. Hand over the chocolate, and no-on will get hurt".

Too true....

[kat]

Sorry, Sheryl, but some of these natural remedies are a bit more established than "folk". Many natural herbs and nutritional solutions are much better to me than popping an anti-depressant - sorry. Also, dark chocolate is not going to help me during PMS if I have a more severe reaction to caffeine. Although, I agree 100% on the natural progesterone cream, and that is recommended in the book that I posted, and makes sense for most women who are estrogen-dominant, and during our periods when progesterone declines.

There is actually a scientific reason why the "folk" remedy of salmon, tofu, seaweed, and green tea work, and that is because it is a perfect balance of Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids, along with the tofu and soy which help to block estrogen transmitters which contribute to the headaches and out-of-control craziness. The seaweed and green tea are theromogenic, and help to clear everything out during that time as well.

Perfectly scientific, just not necessarily recommended by a doctor, but probably even more effective than Zoloft, unless some one is postal crazy, in which case they do need to see a doctor for meds. I don't have an issue with you at all, but am just reacting to the knee-jerk reaction of medical professionals who will automatically assume that remedies that are not prescribed are somehow "folk".

But, to each their own. Whatever works for you. My meal above works well, and it is not in my head because it has been substantiated by the doctors who wrote the book that I recommended.

[Sheryl]

As you say, everyone is different. Green tea, soy, and every herb and diet you can think of didn't work for me, but that doesn't mean that they won't for someone else.

BTW, I use the term "folk" because these are treatments that have been passed on by word of mouth (or print) but not subject to scientific testing. It's not (at least in my book) in any way a derogatory term and the fact that something is a folk treatment doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that it hasn't been scientifically proven to do so. And since there is no profit to it (and the powers that be don't give PMDDa high priority) they probably never will be.

[Aries74]

Men Surely Have No Idea..., taming the psycho within

Not all men. Some are not sticking around to find out.

[kat]

As you say, everyone is different. Green tea, soy, and every herb and diet you can think of didn't work for me, but that doesn't mean that they won't for someone else.

BTW, I use the term "folk" because these are treatments that have been passed on by word of mouth (or print) but not subject to scientific testing. It's not (at least in my book) in any way a derogatory term and the fact that something is a folk treatment doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that it hasn't been scientifically proven to do so. And since there is no profit to it (and the powers that be don't give PMDDa high priority) they probably never will be.

aaah, but it has been, Sheryl. Check out the book that I recommended and what they have said about different hormonal imbalances, and the properties of different natural remedies through nutrition, like the meal I recommended above. There are lots of scientific explanations as to why that balance with miso/tofu and Omegas actually work. But, of course, not all of the imbalances in women are the same, and they discuss the different chemistries in the book. They talk about fermented tofu (the healthiest kind) and phytoestrogens role with neurotransmitters for my particular issue, and it works in a seriously life-changing way for me.

It might be interesting for you to check out. I swear by a balance: the knowledge of health professionals, and my own knowledge of my body, and the natural remedies available and their explanations and effects on me. I use pharmacology as a last resort, when there is nothing else available.

Anyway, I would love to know what you think about the book.

Have a great day, and a stress-free PMS.

*Added: The difference between PMS symptoms of Asian women and Western women are also interesting and significant, and many nutritional scientists and doctors are looking at the role of nutrition and soy.

Edited March 8, 2008 by kat

[suegha]

As a man who grew up in a house with 9 women - 8 sisters and mum - I can seriously say there is no 'cure' for PMS! I used to just let myself be bashed and abused for 1 week per month. And yes, woman do synchronise when they live together!

I was young and the bruises faded quickly. The mental scars remain!

[seonai]

Isn't it written somewhere that exessive amounts of papaya is good for female hormones and even acts as birth control too ?

[seonai]

Although ECPs are available in many countries, women in India and Sri Lanka have another solution. They have been using the papaya fruit as a form of postcoital contraceptive for centuries. Researchers found that the enzyme papain in the papaya interacts with progesterone so that eating one papaya a day for a week will bring on menstruation with no side-effects.

http://www.scpronet.com/point/9607/p07.html

[seonai]

Interesting link to an Indian website re PMS and papaya

http://www.indiwo.com/india/features/menst...-periods/4823/0

[lioness]

A daily B6 vitamin supplement will help, this is specifically designed to alleviate this problem.

[0Mix1up]

Could say as a generalization women are ruled by their genitals and the hormones they produce

All I would say is remind your guy what time of the month it is, we, well me, never remember from month to month.

[Naam]

You really do understand Naam!! I know it is hideous for the men to be on the receiving end of it, but I just want to reaffirm that even though we come across as momentarily demonic, we hate ourselves for it! Thanks for the big smile

nowadays i can have a big mouth and smile because it's over. HALLELUJAH ! PRAISE THE LORD !

[BigSnake]

I do and I think most men do, just hard to tell you.

[PeaceBlondie]

What percent of women have severe PMS? I was not aware that any of them I lived with long term (stepmother, three sisters, wife, three daughters) had more than irritability.

[kat]

Interesting link to an Indian website re PMS and papaya

http://www.indiwo.com/india/features/menst...-periods/4823/0

Wow, i haven't heard about that one. Does green papaya count?

A daily B6 vitamin supplement will help, this is specifically designed to alleviate this problem.

Yeah, it helps.

What percent of women have severe PMS? I was not aware that any of them I lived with long term (stepmother, three sisters, wife, three daughters) had more than irritability.

Good question.

[thaiclan]

I'm not expecting this to be popular...which is why Im writing it or I would have already read it eh?

I have suffered PMS especially in adolesence and early twenties. In my meditations/musings/thoughts whatever I have come to believe that PMS is a gift. It is a monthly wake up call to how well you are living your Life in alignment with what it is you need. Women especially more than men tend to live their lives FOR others, they perform roles unconciously that support and often put first the loved ones in their lives.

Then WHAM its that time of month! The time of the month when all of a sudden its about ME, how I feel, what I want. Its like a woman EXPANDS, that is to say her feeling of self expands and what she needs can no longer be denied. If she pushes her loved ones away she needs more space, or maybe she is tearful - she needs more love and attention, maybe she is in that physical gnarled cramped pain - she needs to relax, stretch and be expansive physically, maybe she is moody and erratic in thinking - she is unsure of her direction..and so on and so on.

I have a saying "if you dare and care to unwrap it you will always reveal the gift", and that goes for the "good" as well as the "bad".

I dont believe it is a womans hormones all scrambled up and making n0-sense. I believe it is her inner core vying for some outwardly expression of self.

Incidentally although posted with compassion, the post about anti-depressants being a great solution I believe should be regarded with great care and not to be taken lightly.

Exercise is amazing to relieve pain immediately, and better nutrition is optimal ultimately. Furthermore notice how when your Life is in alignment with what you want your symptoms are allieved if not totally absent. During periods of heightened perceived stress PMS has a far uglier feel to it.

[kat]

That was a great post. I appreciate your outlook.

[Sheryl]

What percent of women have severe PMS? I was not aware that any of them I lived with long term (stepmother, three sisters, wife, three daughters) had more than irritability.

All women, obviously, menstruate in their reproductive years. The vast majority (most studies say around 90%) experience physical and/or emotional/mental changes in the 7-10 days before their periods which depending both on how severe they are and also how thew woman choses to look at, may or may not qualify as oridnary PMS. Again roughly, about 40% of women suffer from garden variety PMS, although it is a hard call because there is a lack of standarization about definition, and what one womn regards as a troublesome symptom another may take in stride.

PMDD, on the other hand, is a whole other matter. There has been considerable confusion on this thread between the two, some posters have been talking about simple PMS while others (including, I think, the OP, and certainly myself) have been talking about PMDD.

What you describe -- nothing more obvious to an outsider than a bit of irritability -- is consistent with simple PMS, it is definitely not PMDD.

PMDD is thought to affect between 3- 8 % of women in the countried where it has been studied, which are all western ones. However, the incidence does incerase with age. In my case, I had no problem at all until around age 40. Other factors also can increase or decrease the risk of it, including genetic ones.

PMS does not warrant treatment with SSRIs, but may warrant use of natural progesterone (which is very safe) and dietary changes. Some women also report relief from various herbs and vitamins, although none of them seem to work consistently in all women.

PMDD on the other hand, by its very defintiion ("severe enough to significantly impair social and occupational functioning") does require teratment and the price of not treating it, in addition to a markedly reduced quality of life, can include serious damage to relationships, career and self-image, even suicide or acts of violence topwards others (child abuse being probably the most common). Natural progesterone seems to significantly help women with PMDD and in soem cases may be enough by itself or in tandem with dietary and lifestyle modifications, but I think the majority of women with PMDD will require an SSRI for now, that currently being the best drug available.

BTW, Kat -- I have that book, and several other similiar ones as well. First read it 10 years ago and it helped me make the decision to start progesterone. The information you refer to do not qualify as scientific studies -- not their fault, such studies require serious time and money to undertake and none of the usual sources (big Pharma, NIS etc) are prepared to provide the funds. Theer's no harm in trying these folk remedies as all are safe, and I did indeed try them. Unfortunately for me, none helped, and I suspect this would generally be true of women with PMDD. But they may help women with simple PMS, and certainly nothing is lost by trying.

Some time ago Donna posted about an herbal compound she gotr from Australia that she swore by, I haven't tried that (not available in LOS) but if you're reading Donna maybe you could re-post the details.

[kat]

PMS does not warrant treatment with SSRIs, but may warrant use of natural progesterone (which is very safe) and dietary changes. Some women also report relief from various herbs and vitamins, although none of them seem to work consistently in all women.

PMDD on the other hand, by its very defintiion ("severe enough to significantly impair social and occupational functioning") does require teratment and the price of not treating it, in addition to a markedly reduced quality of life, can include serious damage to relationships, career and self-image, even suicide or acts of violence topwards others (child abuse being probably the most common). Natural progesterone seems to significantly help women with PMDD and in soem cases may be enough by itself or in tandem with dietary and lifestyle modifications, but I think the majority of women with PMDD will require an SSRI for now, that currently being the best drug available.

BTW, Kat -- I have that book, and several other similiar ones as well. First read it 10 years ago and it helped me make the decision to start progesterone. The information you refer to do not qualify as scientific studies -- not their fault, such studies require serious time and money to undertake and none of the usual sources (big Pharma, NIS etc) are prepared to provide the funds. Theer's no harm in trying these folk remedies as all are safe, and I did indeed try them. Unfortunately for me, none helped, and I suspect this would generally be true of women with PMDD. But they may help women with simple PMS, and certainly nothing is lost by trying.

Yeah, I hear you on the way things are classified as "scientific" by the medical community. Although many naturopathic followers would respond that their "science" is very often lacking in the things that they can't explain, such as a prevalent "irritable bowel syndrome", or the fact that they can't really explain everything about PMDD and specifics from woman to woman and a host of other ailments. I don't rely on medical doctors for prevention, only diagnosis and drugs at a disease level when it is too late for anything else.

But, I don't have PMDD and was talking about PMS, so I know that there is a distinction that may be more rare with PMDD. However, could it be that am I not as severe because I figured out how to control my symptoms with diet? After 35, I certainly was faced with debilitating symptoms such as a week-long, non-stop shrill migraines that easily kept me in bed with my head under the covers for days, and with my regimen mentioned above now have NO symptoms, all due to diet. Perhaps diet could have a larger effect but as a society people are not guided to that possibility by the mainstream medical establishment. If I had relied solely on the advice of medical doctors, I would have been misdiagnosed at least twice, probably still wondering what the heck was going on. I never take their prescriptions to control symptoms, but do so through diet, and I've done very well, as has my birth mother who is a herbal/naturalist life-long follower, and looks and is about 25 years younger than her 80 years. ** And has not been sick or to a hospital except to give birth to me, 44 years ago. I think that is significant.

At any rate, I don't think there is one-size-fits-all, especially for women's hormones. But, there are some things that indisputably have significant effects, and there are indisputable differences between Asian women and Western women due to diet. As you said, the funding and power of the pharmaceuticals and mainstream medical establishment are legendary, and much of this approach and knowledge gets classified as "unscientific" because they are the ones with the power to exclude or reward such a title.

I'm glad you were able to see the book. It may be as you said that a smaller percentage with PMDD need much more drastic measures.

edit: spelling

** added again

Edited March 9, 2008 by kat

[kat]

"PMS does not warrant treatment with SSRIs, but may warrant use of natural progesterone (which is very safe) and dietary changes. Some women also report relief from various herbs and vitamins, although none of them seem to work consistently in all women."

Also, I have to say that I have felt a sort of chemistry change in my brain, if you can feel such a thing. I can get foggy-headed, and can feel mood changes and pressure depending on what I eat during my monthly change. Chocolate, caffeine, and white flour are absolute drugs to be avoided during that time.

*added: I'm sure you might know the science of it a lot better than me at this point, but I think it has a lot to do with the interactive effects of these substances with hormones that can produce cortisol or steriod-type reactions.

Edited March 9, 2008 by kat

[RueFang]

Also, I have to say that I have felt a sort of chemistry change in my brain, if you can feel such a thing. I can get foggy-headed, and can feel mood changes and pressure depending on what I eat during my monthly change.

I can definitely feel chemical changes going on in my brain and body throughout the month. I'm pretty clockwork every month with knowing when my fluctuating moods, tiredness, feeling emotional and needing a good cry for nothing (now THAT confuses my husband ) are coming.

I just found this piece of info on estrogen dominance that I thought interesting and backs up what several people have said. Also because I am allergic to alcohol, I'm thinking my liver must not be in great shape . Perhaps time to get that checked out.

Estrogen is metabolized in the body through the liver via a process of Methylation. The major co-factors the body requires for correct Methylation are Vitamins B6, Folate( B9 ) and B12.

If the body has adequate amounts of these nutrients it can break excess estrogens down. If it is deficient in these nutrients, which are depleted by the Oral contraceptive Pill, alcohol and stress, estrogen can accumulate causing a hormonal imbalance.

A herb that has the effect of regulating hormones is Black Cohosh or Cimicifuga Racemosa. Black Cohosh has been extremely effective and proven scientifically to assist women with hormonal fluctuations.

[kat]

Yeah, Rue, they say Black Cohosh is good, especially for symptoms of menopause and fluctuations. Your allergy to alcohol could possibly be an allergy to certain kinds of grains. *I found this out only because lately I have found out that I am allergic to dairy and possibly some grains, including those found in beer. I also figured out on my own very early (about 18-years-old) that I can't drink caffeine like other people. I think knowing this early possibly saved me from severe PMS/PMDD. I found a link that talks about caffeine and PMS:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IS...256/ai_n6258852

"Allergic-toxicity generates PMS and PMDD. Mood swings accompanying allergic toxicity are indistinguishable from mania and depression.

As a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI), caffeine increases the catecholamine and serotonin levels, delaying reuptake. Estrogen fluctuates with the menstrual cycle, rising with ovulation and thereafter declining. Estrogen also decreases MAO activity, (12-14) heightening caffeine's MAOI effects.

Researchers conclude that during the premenstrual state, it takes longer for a woman to eliminate caffeine. (15) Along with excess estrogen, the lingering of caffeine in the body causes and increases abnormal physical symptoms, including allergic-generated edema, intracranial pressure and symptoms of toxic dementia."

" Doctors are unaware of ongoing caffeine anaphylaxis and its effects. Monoamine oxidase inhibition can generate an abrupt swing from depression to mania. Symptoms of allergic psychosis are indistinguishable from mood shifts accompanying the diagnosis of a mental disorder and increase during the premenstrual stage of a woman's cycle.

After caffeine allergic women diagnosed with a mental disorder remove caffeine from their diet, the women experience PMS nd PMDD relief, including the alleviation or elimination of abnormal psychological symptoms, which may have been confused with a mental disorder."

Edited March 10, 2008 by kat

[kat]

Here is another link that is a bit more technical, but insightful on the impacts of caffeine and cortisol production:

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/c...t/full/67/5/734

William R. Lovallo, PhD, Thomas L. Whitsett, MD, Mustafa al’Absi, PhD, Bong Hee Sung, PhD, Andrea S. Vincent, PhD and Michael F. Wilson, MD

From the Veterans Affairs Medical Center (W.R.L., A.S.V., B.S.M., T.L.W.), Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences (W.R.L., A.S.V.), and Department of Medicine (T.L.W.), University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, OK; Department of Behavioral Sciences (M.A.), University of Minnesota Medical School, Duluth, MN; Cardiology (M.F.W., B.H.S.), Kaleida, Millard Fillmore Division, Buffalo, NY.

"Other evidence, in light of the present results, indicates that the pattern of cortisol tolerance formation may vary as a function of hypertension risk (35,36). Hypertension is accompanied by enhanced responsivity of the **HPAC (36,37), consistent with reports of greater numbers of *hypothalamic corticotropin-releasing factor neurons in spontaneously hypertensive rats and in brain tissue taken from deceased hypertensive patients (38). The greater HPAC responses seen in hypertension risk groups are accompanied by greater cortisol responses to caffeine. Borderline hypertensives and those with a positive family history have more rapid and prolonged cortisol responses to caffeine than do low-risk persons"

*added: Hypothalamic dysfunction involves the region of the brain called the hypothalamus. This area is located behind the eyes and helps control the pituitary gland, particularly in response to stress. The pituitary in turn controls the thyroid, adrenal glands, ovaries, and testes.

The hypothalamus also helps regulate weight and appetite, body temperature, salt and water balance, and emotions. It is also involved in growth, milk production, childbirth, and sleep.

**Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal cortical system

Edited March 10, 2008 by kat

[kat]

BTW, the B vitamins are good, but I always take a multivitamin and added Bs as a baseline to everything else, *especially caffeine elimination and dietary changes during that time.

Edited March 10, 2008 by kat

[RueFang]

Thanks for those links Kat, very informative. I particularly liked the wording of this one -

For many women, symptoms of cyclic psychosis occur premenstrually and disappear after menstrual onset.

Cyclic psychosis caused by coffee! I have seen the light, praise Buddha I have this knowing inside of me that caffeine is evil (for me), but I love it, I crave it, I float on the breeze if I smell a good brew. I only have one a day if that these days as I've controlled the urges to a degree! It's my kryptonite dam_n it!

Caffeine is associated with the symptoms and severity of PMS, and is dose related; the higher the caffeine intake, the greater the PMS symptoms. Chronic caffeine users who are caffeine sensitive may experience exacerbating symptoms of PMS.

[Goinghomesoon]

Wow fascinating stuff ladies. Luckily I don't seem to get PMS at all. Then again there's always the possibility that I'm just bitchy all the time

It used to confused me when friends said they were suffering badly. I guess I brushed their comments off and thought they were a bit wimpy. Obviously I really underestimated the effects. I understand a lot more now I've taken the time to read here.

Rue there's a box of soppy novels and girly mags coming your way tomorrow morning. Choccies coming later in the week as I missed the shop today...I promise.

[RueFang]

ooh you lucky thing not getting the hormonal crazies. It really does seem to be such a small percentage of the female population that doesn't experience some symptoms though. The soppy novels and chocos are about a week late for inducing crying fits and saving my husband (chocolate = smiles) but luckily my cyclic psychosis has gone into retreat! You rock my world and you know it GHS

[toptuan]

As a guy, I read this thread with great interest as my ex had monthly PMS which threw her into violent migraines which in turn required 2-3 days' hospitalization nearly every month. It was a living nightmare for her and her care-givers.

I also notice that much of the good dietary advice (salmon, miso soup, tea, chocolate, etc.) is corroborated in an interesting feature on ABC News about diet and depression.

Edited March 11, 2008 by toptuan

[kat]

Since this thread I also started eating a handful of walnuts and grounded flax seeds everyday with breakfast. Worked a miracle. Absolutely no PMS and no pain, and won't do further harm to boot!

*I also completely stopped coffee and gluten, and chocolate with much more moderation.

Edited May 3, 2008 by kat