Rice, Second Annual Crop

[MrPaddy]

I am thinking to sink a bore to produce enough water for a second rice crop on some land we are looking to purchase and also for the surrounding land.

The area will be around 15 to 20 rai.

Does anyone know what would be required in size of bore and pumping equipment to supply enough water for this. I know the bore depth depends on underground water etc, but need to know how much water would be required for the job and size of pumps etc.

I am looking to do this purely for an aesthetic reason mostly and as a result, the loacl farmers would have an opportunity to produce an extra crop.

I have 6 rai and the neighbours could have anything from 10 to 20 rai to use for this.

I am in the process of 'thinking' about building a house surrounded by rice fields and I would love to have the rice surrounding the home for a greater part of the year rather than bone dry for half of it and as mentioned, will provide extra income for the farmers of mine and neighbouring land.

But would obviously like to know the cost of this first. Also the cost to setup such a bore for the job.

Hope someone can help.

Cheers.

[chownah]

How much water you will need to pump depends on the kind of soil you have, how well sealed the bottom of the paddy fields are, how water tight the dykes are, the method used for growing the rice, and the weather. There may be some factors I've forgotten but I think that these are the main ones.

If you had enough water at one or two metres from the surface you could pump enough even with a 5 inch tube pump which is the smallest diametre tube pump I've seen...I've got two of them. I don't know for sure how many hours per day you would have to run it but my experience is that a few hours a day would probably keep maybe 5 rai flooded...assuming the bottom is fairly well sealed and likewise the dykes. I have never done this so this is based on my pumping water before the rice season to germinate weed seeds before plowing as a weed control strategy...so this is my best guess...a few hours per day could do 5 rai or so...maybe more...depending on how many hours is "few"....so....if you pumped say 12 hours per day I think you could probably keep 20 rai full if it didn't leak too much. If you got an 8 inch or larger tube pump you would save on fuel and also pump fewer hours per day....remember that all of this depends on having enough water within a couple metres of the surface. The deeper the water is the more fuel it will take to pump it (twice as deep=twice the fuel) and the more sophisticated the pump will have to be I guess.

You may end up losing money with doing this...don't know for sure but it seems unlikely to be profitable. If you just want to keep the fields green then you could plant something besides rice that takes less water during the dry season....just about anything would take way less water than rice. You could grow a green manure crop (for instance) during the dry season which would keep the fields green and would add fertility to the soil so less fertilizer would be needed for the rice...you might be able to eliminate the need for additional fertilizer entirely....that's the system I'm trying to develop.

chownah

Edited March 9, 2008 by chownah

[ozzydom]

I think you would find your idea to be neither feasible or economically viable, the only way you may make it work would be to have a reservoir or pond dug (probably a rai )in which to store water from the wet season and if a suitable bore site were found to top up the pond from this source, if you can water shallow enough that your pond could partially fill from soak so much the better.

IMO you would not be able to extract enough water from a bore to do the job ,unless you struck artesian water and I am not sure of its existance in LOS.

When you put down a bore ,the underground water is not in the form of an underground river or basin as such,although it may well have been a watercourse thousands of years ago , it is usually in a strata of shale or stones or even sand which has an impermiable layer below it which prevents the water travelling downwards.

So they water has to seep through the bore screens into the tube from where it can be pumped and the rate can be very variable and even exhaustable. Here at our place the water table can rise and fall 5 metres during the year and at its lowest it is to bracken and salty to be of use.

There is a member from down Ubon way whose business is sinking boreholes,I will try and search out his nic and let you know,it can be an expensive exercise so I think expert advise is in your best interest .

[slapout]

You may want to contact Boksida he is tv member who has drilled a lot of water wells in Thailand. Give him your location and you may be surprised what info you can get from an old experienced hand.

[ozzydom]

You may want to contact Boksida he is tv member who has drilled a lot of water wells in Thailand. Give him your location and you may be surprised what info you can get from an old experienced hand.

Thanks slapout,saved me a job.

[Maizefarmer]

Forget Mr Paddy - figures wont add up - you WILL loose money, not maybe just come out even - it will be a loss.

If it were viable it would be done all over the place - but its not.

[MrPaddy]

Thanks for the information.

As I said, I am not looking to do this for income, profit or any such financial gain. I will get rice off of it though so will not have to ever buy it again.

The reason is for the aesthetics. I am ok if it costs me some money per year, over and above the bore establishment cost.

What I need to find out is how much it would cost me, as I am ok with xxxxx amount, but would not be ok with XXXXXXXX if you know what I mean.

The other option I had thought of, was another off season crop as Chownah mentioned. Any crops you can mention that would suit Chownah, stay green long time, grows within the non rice harvest season, is worthwhile financially for a farmer to grow it, as I will not be doing it myself. I thought of the large sprinkler irrigation method would also look and give a nice feel to the area.

Again, please understand this is for aesthetic purposes, the land is in a valley, cool climate and surrounded by hills. It is a nice peacefull spot and the only thing letting it down now is the dry surrounds at this time of year. It has been farmed for rice for decades also.

[MrPaddy]

Ok, just had a thought.

I will have 8 rai, of this about 1 rai will be taken up with the building, decking, pool and immediate gardens footprint.

Leaves me 7 rai plus the immediate neighbour of around 10/15 rai.

Think of this extra land as my landscaped gardens. If this area was landscaped, planted with trees, flowers, hedges, gardens etc. Then this would cost somewhat to establish and certainly maintian, gardeners, lawns, watering, fertilizer, trimming the grass etc.

I am thinking of this rice paddy in the same light, but it has an income attached to it for the farmer, not me. Surely it would be cheaper to do what I want than to maintain a manacured garden.

[chownah]

MrPaddy,

You might consider soybeans...the Thais call them yellow beans. In Chiangrai province soybeans are often rotated with rice....there is about one month between rice harvest and soybean plant time so this gives enough time for the field to dry and to prepare for planting. Soybeans do need to be planted at a certain time of the year because they are sensitive to day length for blooming and developing beans. Seems like they plant them around here at about one week into the new year. If they grow soybeans in your area then just use the type that they grow as this will (hopefully) be the kind whose day length requirement matches your area....I would check with the closest agriculture university and get their advise too.

There are two different kinds of soybeans...the usual kind that westerners know of is the kind raised for dry beans....the other kind is grown for eating the beans while still green. The dry bean kind is called "tua leung" which means "yellow bean"...the kind for eating the been green is called "tua let"....don't know what that means. It is my understanding (but not sure) that the tua let sells for a higher price but is more labor intensive...it also has the advantages that the crop residue from this is high quality animal feed especially for cows. The tua leung has the advantages that it can be mechanically harvested and since the bean is dry it can be stored for extended lengths of time so there is no rush to sell them like there is with the tua let since tua let will spoil after some days (don't know how long though)...and in the last few years I have seen tua let being at least partially frozen to extend their shelf life.

Soybeans are legumes so you need to get rhizobium bacteria to put with the seeds the first time they are planted in a field....in subsequent years there is enough holdover of the bacteria so no need to use it every year.....ask at the closest agriculture university about the rhizobium bacteria...they'll know all about it...you need to get the right kind...its really cheap from what I've heard but never bought any myself.

You might consider peanuts also although from what I've heard it is a risky crop to grow but has high returns and also the crop residue is high quality animal feed from what I've heard...also should use rhizobium the first time planted in a particular field I guess....probably not the same kind as the kind used for soybeans so be warned that you need to get the right rhizobium for the crop you plant.

Chownah

Edited March 9, 2008 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

If it was couple rai then I'd say put down some long throw impact sprinklers and should keep things green, but - 15 - 20rai!!

That will cost you a couple hundred thousand to irrigate to keep green through the dry season - so it just doesnt make any sense.

Cassava - doesnt need any water an dit will be a terrible crop from a commmercial point of view, but the foilage will look pretty.

Problem is I dont know what effect it will have soil come next rice season.

[jmcalear]

Mr Paddy,

Thought I might share with you what we have done which we have done in various stages ... but never thinking we would make alot of money. First we bought some rice paddies. We later built (hiring an eacavater)a rather large moat putting the excavated dirt in the center. The higher center should be well above any unusual rainy season flooding. We have alot of fish (restocking every 2 or 3 years from a govt hatchery and the moat is always full of water to a depth of 15-25 feet depending upon season. We feed the fish from our rice (as well as the chickens) so have constant source of protein. Two years ago I suggested we grow a second crop (which is not done in our village) by pumping water from the moat onto ajacent paddies. It worked very well even though the birds attacked our emerald paddy. We can't do a hugh area but have expanded this current season. Four villagers have been been over and three are also trying a second crop.

We (my brother-in-law)have built a very nice house in the center of the moat and now I have comfortable western style housing for myself with an active small scale farm which is appealing aethetically (to use your term) but equally important provides a livlihood for my Thai family. My father-in-law and his two sons had a water drilling business for many years and, I guess, this expertise was the first trigger to launching our project. We have been able to dig and then drill deep enough so that the moat fills naturally and always has a good supply of water.

Also, I'm blessed with a very good family to interface with local people and practices.

j mcalear

[MrPaddy]

JMac, thanks so much.

This is what I am looking for, hard to say if it is exactly the same as my plans without photos, but sounds close enough to be a practical example.

How many rai did you manage to farm for the second rice crop ?

If you do not mind, can you tell me what area you did this in, as in location I mean and if your inlaws are still in the water business I would love to hear from them, or the wife would anyway.

PM me if you do not wish to discuss or pass on personal information publicly.

Cheers.

MF has a rather negative attitude to this for a farmer. I have just last weekend come back from an area that is farming large areas with the large irrigation guns and also farms a second crop of rice now on many areas. Granted they have access to a lot of water, but it also must cost them XXXX amount and they do it. I am just doing it for a different reason that pleases me. Farming at this stage of my life and in this country does not appeal to me as a living, but a lifestyle only. Sorry.

[mobile69]

Where I live, SE of Chiang Mai, the local farmers are growing a second rice crop, irrigated 100% from groundwater. Plot sizes I would guestimate at 5 to 10 rai, each irrigated from their own borehole or well. They are pumping day & night when they are flooding the paddy, through a 2 inch pipe. Is it viable? Maybe get the wife to ask them after they harvest. I presume they've done this before, as some of the bores & wells were already in place, others were dug this year.

[Khonwan]

Two-crop rice growing is the norm in a large area 40km from me. No irrigation canals or rivers available - all the fields I've seen rely on individual bores pumped with small Diesel-engine Kubotas (sp?).

Khonwan

[Gary A]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

[BigSnake]

go for it

[egg]

we have planted a second crop of rice (sticky rice ,l am told), only about 3 rai ,, for a "test",,,,,3 months down and maybe 2 to go ,, we are watering from the drain that runs beside our land other famers are doing the same but only on a small scale ,, maybe 20 rai all up,,,, we have flooded them 3 times and might have to do it once more,,,,, l know nothing about it and even the family dont know much about a second crop so it really is a test ,,, will let you know what the results are in a couple of months

cheers

egg

[Khonwan]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

Why? If the water table is no deeper than 10 metres, where's the problem?

[Gary A]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

Why? If the water table is no deeper than 10 metres, where's the problem?

What kind of pump can you use?

[ozzydom]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

Why? If the water table is no deeper than 10 metres, where's the problem?

I think what Gary is getting at is what type of pump are they using on the Kubota,I would be interested also ,are they using centrifigal submersible ar propellor type pumps??

[Khonwan]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

Why? If the water table is no deeper than 10 metres, where's the problem?

I think what Gary is getting at is what type of pump are they using on the Kubota,I would be interested also ,are they using centrifigal submersible ar propellor type pumps??

Okay. Unfortunately, although I've been driving past them for 12 years, I've never paid any serious attention to them. I'll take along my camera on my next trip.

Khonwan

Edited March 10, 2008 by Khonwan

[ozzydom]

Where I live, SE of Chiang Mai, the local farmers are growing a second rice crop, irrigated 100% from groundwater. Plot sizes I would guestimate at 5 to 10 rai, each irrigated from their own borehole or well. They are pumping day & night when they are flooding the paddy, through a 2 inch pipe. Is it viable? Maybe get the wife to ask them after they harvest. I presume they've done this before, as some of the bores & wells were already in place, others were dug this year.

Nothing is set in stone as far as irrigating from boreholes is concerned as there are so many factors affecting the operation like what type of ground the water is contained in affects the rate it is available to pump,how deep the water is.

With bores the pump suction pipe is usually 1/4 to 1/5 th the size of the bore tube and maybe more in some cases,so a 2 inch suction would probably have an 8 or 10 inch bore casing and you dont see many that size around.

If its a dug well being pumped from and the water table is very shallow, then thats a different kettle of fish.

When you start talking large impact sprinklers they are totally different as they require a large volume to pump from and are high pressure needing big pumps and big horsepower to drive them, and you are talking big spondooly when you are get into that.

SAP is the expert on large acre irrigation ,maybe he will step up and shock you with the costs of these operations.

[Maizefarmer]

Gary A - How does one use a Kubota to get water from a bore hole? - I think what was mean't was using the Kubota pto to drive a pump - whatever kind of pump it was be.

Ozzydom - yes, impact sprinklers do require a pump that has to move large volume/large pressure - but on the upside they are practical, easily moved around, not much piping would be needed - compared to other methods. The alternative over such a large surface area would be what? - drippers spaced out - but the cost to lay/spread drippers over 15-20rai would be no less than using impact sprinklers, or possibly flood irrigation (but then its not borehole). For that surface area onto dry ground sprinklers would really be the only way in the absense of a pond to get enough water onto the ground quick enough.

Either way - 15-20rai - borehole (makes no diff if its less than or more than 10meters), ground level water (i.e. pond water) - even flood - while all possible, personally I can't see the sense in it

mobile69 - flooding 5 - 10rai from a borehole through a 2" diameter pipe! - is this from already wet ground i.e. they are using to maintain flooded levels, or is it from no water in the paddy tio filling the paddy?

It is fragrant rice they are growing, is it not ? i.e. the gate price justifies the irrigation costs.

They are using electrictity or diesel?

Initialy I thought impossible because of the cost of diesel and the evapouration rates are in terms of ton's of water per/rai from saturated ground or a swamp (which effectively is what a rice paddy is) - but, if they are growing fragrant rice and irrigating with electricity from a shallow borehole - it may just be possible.

[mobile69]

mobile69 - flooding 5 - 10rai from a borehole through a 2" diameter pipe! - is this from already wet ground i.e. they are using to maintain flooded levels, or is it from no water in the paddy tio filling the paddy?

It is fragrant rice they are growing, is it not ? i.e. the gate price justifies the irrigation costs.

They are using electrictity or diesel?

Initialy I thought impossible because of the cost of diesel and the evapouration rates are in terms of ton's of water per/rai from saturated ground or a swamp (which effectively is what a rice paddy is) - but, if they are growing fragrant rice and irrigating with electricity from a shallow borehole - it may just be possible.

Yes, dry paddy filled several times now. Shallow bore hole & dug well (varies between fields). Electric pumps. I suspect minimal investment by each farmer, these guys are barely above subsistence I expect. They're close enough to village to string extension cables across the fields. I'll get the mrs to ask how deep they're getting their water from - hopefully not as deep as my borehole Noticed today, one farmer had a gang in to deepen his well, the concrete rings nearby suggest 2 more metres.

whether the OP can do this depends on the availabilty of water...

[Khonwan]

Gary A - How does one use a Kubota to get water from a bore hole? - I think what was mean't was using the Kubota pto to drive a pump - whatever kind of pump it was be.

....(makes no diff if its less than or more than 10meters), ...

Ref. to 10 metres: I assume that an electric submersible pump is required for depths greater than 10 metres (I've no experience in this regards as I have no irrigation).

I believe the Kubotas are in the 9-14hp range and belt-drive the pump.

[MrPaddy]

Ok, another question and this one is from a totally ignorant person who has seen rice grown everywhere a million times.

But what time of year does the rice planting start and stop ?

And what is the difference between growing the fragrant rice and any other variety ?

The land has a natural wet season water course at the rear of the property. This water course has a small pond of water in it still now. Locals said cleaning the course out with a excavator would/should supply enough water for storage and coupled with a bore, surely this should do the job.

Another question, are solar pumps available for this type of operation ?

By the way, thanks for all the information and as others are doing it and as most of them are subsistance farmers, I am sure that it can be done for the reasons I want it to be done and benefit the local farmer a little.

Edited March 10, 2008 by MrPaddy

[mobile69]

Seeing that you'll be helping them out with the borehole(s) & electric, maybe you should get them to realize that they don't really need to burn off their stubble....

[MrPaddy]

They do not burn it in this little area, perhaps too close to the village, but either way they graze cattle on it.

[ozzydom]

quote=

MF has a rather negative attitude to this for a farmer. I have just last weekend come back from an area that is farming large areas with the large irrigation guns and also farms a second crop of rice now on many areas. Granted they have access to a lot of water, but it also must cost them XXXX amount and they do it. I am just doing it for a different reason that pleases me. Farming at this stage of my life and in this country does not appeal to me as a living, but a lifestyle only. Sorry.

Mr Paddy,I think your abovementioned statement is a bit unfair,you posted as a farming newbie and asked for advise without giving the sort of information needed for anybody to give a qualified bit of advise.

MF is one our most experienced posters on things agriculture and gives good advise when requested, he told you the same as me,that your idea was costly and not feasible ,but you must realise we are commercial farmers ,which means we farm for profit and when somebody says they want to spend big bucks but are not interested in profits its a bit foreign to us.

I would suggest you read the pinned section at the top of the Farm forum page regarding what a newbie should give in the form of information before asking questions and then post the details and your ideas , I can assure you that what you took as negativity is in reality the thoughts of experienced members trying to help you and not see you waste money.

As I said in a previous post, if its aesthetics you are looking at maybe a nice landscaped pond of 1-2 rai surrounded by nice trees ,coconuts ,bananas and stocked with different fish species ,a nice Sala on the bank complete with hammock of course.

The pond would supply water for crops in the surrounding land which in turn could be kept topped up from a bore.

If the water table were shallow enough and your pond was replenished by soak ,you would only draw 10 inches of water from a 2 rai pond to put 2 inches of water into 10 rai of cropping land. But you need to provide details of how deep your available water is and the quality of the water.

cheers

ozzy

[Khonwan]

I would be interested to see how they get water from a bore hole with a Kubota.

Why? If the water table is no deeper than 10 metres, where's the problem?

What kind of pump can you use?

Sorry Gary, I didn’t see this follow-up post before. I’m not sure, as I have said in subsequent replies, but I think it’s just centrifugal pumps belt-driven by the Kubota. I’ll try to photograph one in the next few days if I’m in the area.

Rgds

Khonwan