Mae Chee And Bikkhuni

[ani]

hi ,i am a university student and i am now working on my seminar paper within the stratification topic.my plan is to deal with the structure of the sangha and i am very much intersted in the status of nuns in thailand and the fact that they cannot become bikkhuni.i am finding out more and more information about it ,and i would be happy if anyone can direct me to good information sources....

a question that i have is,as a practicing buddhist is there any problem with me dealing with this subject ? by things i have heard it is quite sensitive ,but as a woman and as a buddhist i am facinated with it.

thankyou

metta to you all

[chutai]

I found 'garro' to be a good source of information on this topic. Better than me who didn't know that there was any difference between Mae Chee And Bikkhuni anyway. He'll no doubt reply.

Good luck with your research.

[Brucenkhamen]

hi ,i am a university student and i am now working on my seminar paper within the stratification topic.my plan is to deal with the structure of the sangha and i am very much intersted in the status of nuns in thailand and the fact that they cannot become bikkhuni.i am finding out more and more information about it ,and i would be happy if anyone can direct me to good information sources....

a question that i have is,as a practicing buddhist is there any problem with me dealing with this subject ? by things i have heard it is quite sensitive ,but as a woman and as a buddhist i am facinated with it.

thankyou

metta to you all

I don't know of any sources to point you to. Wat Pah Nanachaat might be a good place to contact as their branch monasteries in the West have established an order of Bhikkunis.

This topic might be sensitive to Thai people but not to others. Most westerners are keen to see Bhikkiunis have the same status as monks. In Burma and Sri Lankha the equivilent of the Mae Chee are more respected than in Thailand.

[Nudee]

The first bikkhuni/bikkhu was ordained by lord buddha.

A bikkhu could only be ordained by a bikkhu.

A bikkhuni could only be ordained by a bikkhuni.

The last bikkhuni died a very long time ago so there is no real bikkhuni nowaday.

It doesn't matter if you are a mae chee of a bikkhuni, the main purpose is to end "suffering"

[sbk]

I recall a few threads about this in the Buddhism forum a while back, it may not answer your questions but its a good start

Future of Bhikkuni ordination

Female Monks Revive Buddhist Tradition

Bhikkhunis

[clausewitz]

I don't know of any sources to point you to. Wat Pah Nanachaat might be a good place to contact as their branch monasteries in the West have established an order of Bhikkunis.

When did this noteworthy event take place? If they did they are pioneering unorthodox practice outside the Vinaya.

In the past I understand they did have 10 precept upasika like the dasa sil mata of sri lanka, but never bhikkuni.

[sabaijai]

Do check the exhaustive threads on the subject that sbk suggested. There are several ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand. While not acknowledged by the clerical heirarchy here, they are recognised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.

[Nudee]

A man cannot be called "mother"

A woman without a child cannot be called "mother"

A woman with a child is called "mother"

A female who is ordained by a bikkhuni called "bikkhuni"

It's just a "Nam", why bother.

If you are a man who want to call youself "mother", just do it.

But don't expect other to call you a "mom"

Life is short, why bother with this "Nam" thing.

[Brucenkhamen]

I don't know of any sources to point you to. Wat Pah Nanachaat might be a good place to contact as their branch monasteries in the West have established an order of Bhikkunis.

When did this noteworthy event take place? If they did they are pioneering unorthodox practice outside the Vinaya.

In the past I understand they did have 10 precept upasika like the dasa sil mata of sri lanka, but never bhikkuni.

I think officially they take thev 10 precepts but unofficially they practive the full 300 and something Bhikkuni precepts.

[bankei]

There are various different traditions of Buddhism and the Bhikkhuni lineage has survived in one of these traditions called the Mulasarvastivada. The monks and nuns of Korea, China, Taiwan etc follow this tradition. They are ordained according to this particular vinaya.

Thailand follows Theravada tradition and there are no more Bhikkhuni in this tradition - or there were no more. What some women have done is ordain within a Chinese tradition with Theravada Bhikkhu helping out - nuns must be ordained by both monks and nuns. These new Bhikkhuni have then followed the Theravada traditions, customs and philosophical outlook etc.

The problem is that many Thervada monks do not recognise the validity of non-Theravada monks/nun's ordinations and so they believe these new Bhikkhuni are not properly ordained. This has not stopped the growth of the Bhikkhuni revival in Sri Lanka where there are many hundreds ordained now, but it is holding things back in Thailand where there are only one or 2 Bhikkhuni at the moment.

[ShinMeiDokuJoh]

Some information from Bhante Gavesako from another forum:

And here is some more information on introducing real training for nuns (i.e. not just some kind of doubtful 'ordination') in India, also facilitated by monks from Sri Lanka and Thailand:

http://tathaaloka.spaces.live.com/default.aspx

Recently there was a Bhikkhuni Seminar organized in Australia which brought together a large group of Buddhist nuns of various kinds and robe-colours:

http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/

http://integrateful.net/Bhikkhuni/

There are more "brown nuns" in Thailand these days. For example, in northern Thailand (which is culturally a bit different from both central Thailand and the north-east) there is one centre with a whole group of them. They received their "samaneri" ordination in Sri Lanka and may have already been ordained as bhikkhunis. See http://nirotharam.com/dhammaway.html

With best regards

ShinMeiDokuJoh

[sabaijai]

Thanks for those inspiring links.

[CuriousGeorge77]

I was talking with my wife (Southern Thai, if that makes a difference) about female monks in Thialand.

I mentioned that I had read this:

There are several ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand. While not acknowledged by the clerical heirarchy here, they are recognised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.

She assured me that this is not the case, and that the Bikkhuni are officially recognized in Thailand (and she did not mean Mae Chee). So I guess I don't understand something. What does Thailand have in the way of female monks?

[sabaijai]

I was talking with my wife (Southern Thai, if that makes a difference) about female monks in Thialand.

I mentioned that I had read this:

There are several ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand. While not acknowledged by the clerical heirarchy here, they are recognised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.

She assured me that this is not the case, and that the Bikkhuni are officially recognized in Thailand (and she did not mean Mae Chee). So I guess I don't understand something. What does Thailand have in the way of female monks?

Bhikkhuni are not officially recognised by either of Thailand's two monastic orders.

[jdinasia]

hi ,i am a university student and i am now working on my seminar paper within the stratification topic.my plan is to deal with the structure of the sangha and i am very much intersted in the status of nuns in thailand and the fact that they cannot become bikkhuni.i am finding out more and more information about it ,and i would be happy if anyone can direct me to good information sources....

a question that i have is,as a practicing buddhist is there any problem with me dealing with this subject ? by things i have heard it is quite sensitive ,but as a woman and as a buddhist i am facinated with it.

thankyou

metta to you all

An obvious step would be to head to Nakhon Prathom and visit the Women in Buddhism center there. The head of that is a Thai woman, ordained as a nun in the Sri Lankan tradition.

Next stop might be the Thai Mae Chi foundation and school (also in Nakhon Pathom I think) then possibly as a final stop, Pathom Asoke where they also ordain nuns (Santhi Asoke)

[CuriousGeorge77]

I was talking with my wife (Southern Thai, if that makes a difference) about female monks in Thialand.

I mentioned that I had read this:

There are several ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand. While not acknowledged by the clerical heirarchy here, they are recognised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.

She assured me that this is not the case, and that the Bikkhuni are officially recognized in Thailand (and she did not mean Mae Chee). So I guess I don't understand something. What does Thailand have in the way of female monks?

Bhikkhuni are not officially recognised by either of Thailand's two monastic orders.

Would you be able to point me to an "authoratitaive" source that would convince my wife?  preferably something in Thai - thanks

[sabaijai]

I was talking with my wife (Southern Thai, if that makes a difference) about female monks in Thialand.

I mentioned that I had read this:

There are several ordained bhikkhunis in Thailand. While not acknowledged by the clerical heirarchy here, they are recognised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.

She assured me that this is not the case, and that the Bikkhuni are officially recognized in Thailand (and she did not mean Mae Chee). So I guess I don't understand something. What does Thailand have in the way of female monks?

Bhikkhuni are not officially recognised by either of Thailand's two monastic orders.

Would you be able to point me to an "authoratitaive" source that would convince my wife? preferably something in Thai - thanks

What I've read on the subject has mostly been in English, esp newspaper columns in the Bangkok Post and The Nation. I'm sure there is plenty of material available in Thai as well, I'll see if I can find something.

[bankei]

There is a very good paper on the arguments for and against the reintorduction of Bhikkhuni ordination in Theravada by Bhikkhu Bodhi at:

http://bhikkhunicommittee.googlepages.com/...kni-Final-4.pdf

[sabaijai]

There is a very good paper on the arguments for and against the reintorduction of Bhikkhuni ordination in Theravada by Bhikkhu Bodhi at:

http://bhikkhunicommittee.googlepages.com/...kni-Final-4.pdf

Best essay on the topic I've yet read, thanks for the link, bankei. I've copied the conclusion below for those who don't want to tread through the entire text.

The disappearance of the Theravāda Bhikkhunī Sangha has presented us with a

situation not explicitly addressed in the Vinaya and thus one for which there is no

unambiguous remedy. When faced with such a contingency, naturally Vinaya

authorities will hold different ideas about how to proceed, all claiming to accord with

the purport of the Vinaya. As I see it, the Vinaya cannot be read in any fixed manner as

either unconditionally permitting or forbidding a revival of the Bhikkhunī Sangha. It

yields these conclusions only as a result of interpretation, and interpretation often

reflects the attitudes of the interpreters and the framework of assumptions within

which they operate as much as it does the actual words of the text they are

interpreting.

Amidst the spectrum of opinions that might be voiced, the two main categories

of interpretation are the conservative and the progressive. For conservatives,

bhikkhunī status absolutely requires a dual-Sangha ordination with the participation of

a Theravāda Bhikkhunī Sangha; hence, since no Theravāda Bhikkhunī Sangha exists,

and for conservatives non-Theravādin bhikkhunīs cannot fill this role, the Theravāda

bhikkhunī lineage is irreparably broken and can never be restored. For progressives,

bhikkhunī ordination can be restored, either by permitting bhikkhunīs from an East

Asian country to fulfill the role of the Bhikkhunī Sangha at a dual-Sangha ordination or

by recognizing the right of bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunīs until a Theravāda Bhikkhunī

Sangha becomes functional.

In my opinion, in deciding between the conservative and the progressive

approaches to the bhikkhunī issue, the question that should be foremost in our minds is

this: "What would the Buddha want his elder bhikkhu-disciples to do in such a

situation, now, in the twenty-first century?" If he were to see us pondering this problem

today, would he want us to apply the regulations governing ordination in a way that

excludes women from the fully ordained renunciant life, so that we present to the

world a religion in which men alone can lead the life of full renunciation? Or would he

instead want us to apply the regulations of the Vinaya in a way that is kind, generous,

and accommodating, thereby offering the world a religion that truly embodies

principles of justice and non-discrimination?

The answers to these questions are not immediately given by any text or

tradition, but I do not think we are left entirely to subjective opinion either. From the

texts we can see how, in making major decisions, the Buddha displayed both

compassion and disciplinary rigor; we can also see how, in defining the behavioral

standards of his Sangha, he took account of the social and cultural expectations of his

contemporaries. In working out a solution to our own problem, therefore, we have

these two guidelines to follow. One is to be true to the spirit of the Dhamma--true to

both the letter and the spirit, but above all to the spirit. The other is to be responsive to

social, intellectual, and cultural horizons of humanity in this particular period of

history in which we live, this age in which we forge our own future destinies and the

future destiny of Buddhism. Looked at in this light, the revival of a Theravāda

Bhikkhunī Sangha can be seen as an intrinsic good that conforms to the innermost

spirit of the Dhamma, helping to bring to fulfillment the Buddha's own mission of

opening "the doors to the Deathless" to all humankind, to women as well as to men. At

same time, viewed against the horizons of contemporary understanding, the

existence of a Bhikkhunī Sangha can function as an instrumental good. It will allow

women to make a meaningful and substantial contribution to Buddhism in many of the

ways that monks do--as preachers, scholars, meditation teachers, educators, social

advisors, and ritual leaders--and perhaps in certain ways that will be unique to female

renunciants, for example, as counselors and guides to women lay followers. A

Bhikkhunī Sangha will also win for Buddhism the respect of high-minded people in the

world, who regard the absence of gender discrimination as the mark of a truly worthy

religion in harmony with the noble trends of present-day civilization.

[Nampeung]

Try also here http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/eng/ and contact Dr Chatsuman if you can

[sabaijai]

Leading the way

Poonsirivara Bhikkhuni talks about her life's mission

STORY AND PHOTO BY SANITSUDA EKACHAI

Many Thais who spend decades working in the US would aspire to return home to spend their retirement in comfort. Not the former Poonsiri Phanampai.

After 26 years away from home, the mother of two and a former home health care practitioner is back in her motherland to live a homeless life as a bhikkhuni.

Her new Buddhist name is Poonsirivara Bhikkhuni. And retirement is not on her mind.

"I'd like to be of some use here," says the 52-year-old bhikkhuni, sitting in her small thatched-roof bamboo hut surrounded by the greenery of her family orchard in Samut Sakhon.

"There still is resistance against female ordination here," she adds matter-of-factly. "It is partly cultural and partly the lack of visibility for a bhikkhuni. So I thought if I'm back home to work with the communities, it'll help make bhikkhunis more visible. And hopefully, that will help people accept bhikkhunis, at least in my community."

full article here

[sabaijai]

Who says we never had Bhikkhuni clergy?

Thursday, April 10, 2008

Posted by Sanitsuda Ekachai , Reader : 5533 , 05:30:17

Like most Thais, I believed that there have never been female monks, or Bhikkhuni, in Thailand. How I was wrong!

The person who opened my eyes was Ayya Tathaaloka Bhikkhuni, a Buddhist teacher and abbess of the Dhammadharini Vihara, a temple for female monastics in Fremont, California.

As a scholar on Bhikkhuni history and Vinaya, Ayya Tathaaloka Bhikkhuni has done an extensive research on female ordination in Southeast Asia. So when I wrote in one of my articles that Thailand, unlike Sri Lanka, had never had a Bhikkhuni clergy, she kindly emailed me to tell a different story.

Contrary to mainstream belief, there is much evidence about the Bhikkhuni clergy in old Siam and nearby countries from the 3rd century BC up to modern times, she said.

The oldest document, dating back to the Ashokan period, states that a mission led by Arahanta Theras Sona and Uttara travelled to Suvarnabhumi where they ordained "3,500 men and 1,500 women, establishing the Buddhadhamma".

This important historical journey is recorded in the Pali texts as well as in the ancient Sri Lankan chronicles, which were later translated into Chinese.

The Chinese version, in particular, specifies that the 3,500 noblemen were ordained as Bhikkhu and the 1,500 noblewomen as Bhikkhuni.

Closer to home, this historical Buddhist mission also appears in the old records of Nakhon Si Thammarat, believed by many to be the entry point of Buddhism into our region.

This is exciting information. Powerful information.

You see, the clergy's main argument against female ordination is that we never had Bhikkhuni in Thailand. They also argue that since the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage has been long extinct, it is impossible to have Bhikkhuni in the Thai Theravada clergy.

No need asking the clergy to ordain women. They insist that a legitimate female ordination, according to the monastic discipline, must be performed both by monks and Bhikkhuni.

The clergy's arguments, however, crumble with historical evidence of the Ashokan Buddhist mission. They not only show that we used to have Bhikkhuni, they also confirm that dual ordination is not necessary where Bhikkhuni does not exist, that monks alone can ordain women to set up the Bhikkhuni clergy.

There's more. There are later ancient texts that make reference to the existence of  Bhikkhuni in the Lanna and Sukhothai kingdoms. For example, there are old records in Lanna literature about two Bhikkhuni believed to be local women. There are also Sukhothai period evidence of Bhikkhuni who were ordained by monks alone, she said.

The Bhikkhuni Sangha in old Siam came to a halt when the Ayutthaya kingdom rose to power. "The previous Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sangha was made to cease to exist for political reasons and a new Bhikkhu Sangha was founded with royal support," said Ayya Tathaaloka Bhikkhuni.

Her message: Don't say Thailand never had a Bhikkhuni clergy. To be precise, say Thailand has never had a Bhikkhuni Sangha, with dual ordination, established and supported by the monarchy, since the founding of the Kingdom of Ayutthaya.

Now we know.

If facts cannot dismantle the prejudice against female ordination, what can?

[SeerObserver]

This is exciting information. Powerful information.

You see, the clergy's main argument against female ordination is that we never had Bhikkhuni in Thailand. They also argue that since the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage has been long extinct, it is impossible to have Bhikkhuni in the Thai Theravada clergy.

No need asking the clergy to ordain women. They insist that a legitimate female ordination, according to the monastic discipline, must be performed both by monks and Bhikkhuni.

The clergy's arguments, however, crumble with historical evidence of the Ashokan Buddhist mission. They not only show that we used to have Bhikkhuni, they also confirm that dual ordination is not necessary where Bhikkhuni does not exist, that monks alone can ordain women to set up the Bhikkhuni clergy.

What an interesting turn on the matter. Although often seemingly contemptuous of the Sangha (or maybe I should say just the way it's operated), I have to say that her posts do bring light to what may often be swept under the rug.

It would be good if the exposure of certain issues makes way for reforms by those in the position to do so.