Teachers W/o Workpermits

[mbkudu]

I occaisionally take a peak at ajarn.com for the articles, but had never looked at the forum until recently. I was amazed at the vast numbers of teachers asking advice on the best place for monthly visa runs. Are there really still that many teachers without work permits in Thaialnd? I would have thought that with the new regulations, frequent border running teachers would have their acts together by now or just throw in the towel. I guess things are just as they always were. Does anybody have any idea what the percentage of teachers without WPs is?

[kenkannif]

Probably well over 50% in my opinion and experience. Certainly here in Bkk anyway!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Immigration guess ( only guess ) that the actual number well exceed 50 per cent. I guess nobody really knows or ever can.

[Ijustwannateach]

It's hard to know what the reason for this discrepancy really is, just as it's hard to measure it, for the same reasons of non-transparency. Some possibilities:

1. The central gov't creates more and more unreasonable amounts of red tape so that only a very, very few schools/individuals can get WPs. Then the imm. officers clean up on bribes and visa fees. Conversely, those who do get WPs may do so by bribes (reflected in lowered salaries) since for many institutions it seems to matter more for WP what the institution is rather than who the individual is.

2. The central gov't doesn't really want so many foreign teachers anyway, in opposition to the will of the people.

3. They all have their heads up their bums.

4. Any combination of the above.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

The one classroom to one work permit rule is the real killer IMO!

And the fact that schools can't be bothered to research how to get a WP without a degree!

[Jowels]

Of the FULL-TIME teachers in Songkhla province I would estimate that more than 60% of us have WP's.

The vast majority of part-time teachers continue to work without permits.

[kenkannif]

^ Even at language schools? I find that hard to believe (although I could well be completely wrong and I've never been there....yeah I'll shut up now then!).

[sriracha john]

Has the Ministry of Labor ever revealed how many work permits it issues? If that is possible to ascertain, factoring of percentages of those working without one is much simpler.

[PeaceBlondie]

Against good advice, I'll say it again:

When both of the schools one has worked at, full-time for a semester or more, hasn't the foggiest notion of a clue of a semblance of an understanding about how to get work permits; when the bosses' eyes glaze over at the mere mention of helping the farang get a work permit; when the information about how to get it is slightly contradictory or very uncertain; when the list of forms, photographs, and other documentation is daunting; when nobody's got the time to go to the trouble; when the department head is afraid to go to the administration......etc.........then, it's no wonder that teachers don't have work permits.

No sane person would immigrate to a developed country under such circumstances. Okay, so we're not all sane; however.....

[mbkudu]

No sane person would immigrate to a developed country under such circumstances. Okay, so we're not all sane; however.....

I tend to think that most of the teachers in Thaialnd who have work permits had full intentions to teach before going to Thailand. They did a lot of research and communicating with schools beforehand.

For all the others, I'd say that they had no intentions to teach, but it just ended up that way. The way the government has it set up, it is almost more of a hindrance to be tied to a work permit than without. If the government gave teachers more flexibility to 'move around' with a work permit, I think more teachers would go through all the hoops to get one. I would be curious to know what kind of restrictions are on freelance journalists with WPs. They seem to move around from job to job constantly.

[Mikey7]

Just curious. It appears that the consulates in home countries are ,lets say more lenient about issuing visas. If a person went to a consulate with only an invitation to work at a school here would the consulate be able to issue thw work visa? Or is that only obtainable here in Thailand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Just curious. It appears that the consulates in home countries are ,lets say more lenient about issuing visas. If a person went to a consulate with only an invitation to work at a school here would the consulate be able to issue thw work visa? Or is that only obtainable here in Thailand.

Thai Embassies andConsulates don't issue work permits.

[kenkannif]

No sane person would immigrate to a developed country under such circumstances.  Okay, so we're not all sane; however.....

I tend to think that most of the teachers in Thaialnd who have work permits had full intentions to teach before going to Thailand. They did a lot of research and communicating with schools beforehand.

For all the others, I'd say that they had no intentions to teach, but it just ended up that way. The way the government has it set up, it is almost more of a hindrance to be tied to a work permit than without. If the government gave teachers more flexibility to 'move around' with a work permit, I think more teachers would go through all the hoops to get one. I would be curious to know what kind of restrictions are on freelance journalists with WPs. They seem to move around from job to job constantly.

I'd disagree! Some research tons and don't get anywhere, some (like myself) just come here and take it from there and get lucky (or work hard for what they want) and get sorted!

[Ijustwannateach]

Right on, Ken!

I had the full intention to teach and a public school director inviting me here to work when I came over, and he screwed me! There's no systematic fairness or truth here- it's luck of the draw!

[PeaceBlondie]

mbkdubududu, you're right about how it works for a fully qualified B.Ed/M.Ed who's certified and licensed in his home country, who is recuited internationally and has all his ducks in a row and gets a real job in his subject matter, teaching at a real legitimate first rank international school (both in Bangkok) who actually pay 100,000 baht per month, and don't hire somebody else one day before his contract's signed in Krungthep.

The rest of us were advised to come here first, because we weren't that well qualified. I researched ajarn.com day and night during 2003, from about Feb. 1 to when the plane took off on 30 May. Now I'll admit it- I STILL haven't a chance in Hades of getting a WP this year, even though I teach full time (in two subjects for which I'm not certified).

And Geo or Wangsuda or Jitsuda or somebody got screwed like I wrote at the end of the first paragraph. So even the best professionals can get taken for a ride.

This is Thailand, Land of No Work Permits.

When's that minibus leave for the visa run?

[mbkudu]

Peace Blondie, I know how you feel. The years that I spent in Thailand teaching were without a WP because of the type of work I did, almost all privates. It's just not possible to get one doing this kind of work.

I plan to get back into teaching soon in Thailand; I will go for a CELTA course in July 05' and hope for the best. It would be nice to be a legal beagle this time around, but I'll just have to see what happens.

[Ijustwannateach]

keep an eye on this forum, MBKudu- things're getting tougher and tougher for the "grey market!"

[Eastender]

I taught in T'land for a year. My small private school then wanted to get me a w/p but counld't cause I didn't have a degree, but they kept me on for another year.

I have a TEFL and experience, but sadly no degree.

Any advice?

[Ijustwannateach]

^The best thing for you would be to get out of Bangkok. Schools in the countryside are less demanding about qualifications and they have the local clout to get WPs based on fewer quals. for those areas. Good luck!

"Steven"

[mbkudu]

This is slightly off topic, but a question for either Ajarn or Steven. Let's say a

teacher has a work permit with AAA Language School in Siam Square. His work permit states that he must only work at this school. If this school sends him out to a student's office or home to teach under a contract between the student and the school, is the teacher breaking the law? Just curious.

[Jowels]

^ Even at language schools? I find that hard to believe (although I could well be completely wrong and I've never been there....yeah I'll shut up now then!).

Yes Ken's that's 100% true. A couple of years back none of us had work permits, but things have improved dramatically over the past twelve months. To give you an idea almost everyone I know working full-time has a WP and teaching license.

[kenkannif]

This is slightly off topic, but a question for either Ajarn or Steven. Let's say a

teacher has a work permit with AAA Language School in Siam Square. His work permit states that he must only work at this school. If this school sends him out to a student's office or home to teach under a contract between the student and the school, is the teacher breaking the law? Just curious.

Yes, 9.99 times out of 10 your WP is location specific (I've heard you can get other locations put on, but yet to see it with my own eyes). So yes you'd be breaking the law in theory. In practice it happens all the time. Same as quite often teachers will teach subjects they're not really supposed to teach. The joys of living in Thailand!

Jowels so these language schools don't outsource ANY teachers at all? And full-time is?

[mbkudu]

^ Even at language schools? I find that hard to believe (although I could well be completely wrong and I've never been there....yeah I'll shut up now then!).

Yes Ken's that's 100% true. A couple of years back none of us had work permits, but things have improved dramatically over the past twelve months. To give you an idea almost everyone I know working full-time has a WP and teaching license.

Jowels, do these co-workers of yours with work permits have degrees, or did the schools find a way around things to obtain the work permits for them?

[Ijustwannateach]

^^What Ken said!

"Steven"

[mbkudu]

^^What Ken said!

"Steven"

Uh, don't get testy now big boy. I was asking Jowels a simple question, not you

Steven.

[kenkannif]

This is slightly off topic, but a question for either Ajarn or Steven.

MBK,

I think IJWT's response was in regards to this initial question from you, not your question to Jowels!

Edited October 1, 2004 by kenkannif

[Ijustwannateach]

^What Ken said again!

[mbkudu]

Oh well.

[Jowels]

^ Even at language schools? I find that hard to believe (although I could well be completely wrong and I've never been there....yeah I'll shut up now then!).

Yes Ken's that's 100% true. A couple of years back none of us had work permits, but things have improved dramatically over the past twelve months. To give you an idea almost everyone I know working full-time has a WP and teaching license.

Jowels, do these co-workers of yours with work permits have degrees, or did the schools find a way around things to obtain the work permits for them?

With one exception they all have degrees. Admittedly I don't know if they're genuine. At least two of the large supposedly respectable schools encourage their teachers to obtain degree certificates using whatever means necessary. The only person I know who doesn't have a degree is employed as a consultant. Before you ask yes - he does teach as well!

Ken or IJWT (stop asking the same bloody questions u numpties!) - re outsourcing. No the school I'm referring to doesn't outsource it's teachers. Nonetheless, I know of one local language school that does and it's now ensuring it's WP's are location specific i.e. they cover the school where the teacher is actually working. I'm told it's an administrative nightmare, but they get there in the end. Incidentally my WP covers two locations the local uni and a weekend language school.

I don't know why things have improved so dramatically. Despite having the relevant qualifications I spent 18 months working on a tourist visa. Back then the schools simply didn't seem to take it seriously. I can only assume they received a warning their was going to be a crack down and decided to get their houses in order. BTW - My WP has been checked at the weekend language school twice in the past 12 months. Is this unusual? Perhaps the authorities down south have decided to get serious!

[kenkannif]

Ken or IJWT (stop asking the same bloody questions u numpties!) -

^ We didn't mate. I asked what you classed as full-time and if they were outsourced. IJWT asked about them getting WPs without degrees. Who's the numpty now, numpty?