Self Employed In Aus

[oscarturtle]

I'm an Aussie planning on moving to Thailand next year to be with my Thai girlfriend. My employer here has agreed on an arrangement for me to work for them as a contractor. In effect I'll be self employed but all source of income will come from Oz, all income paid into Oz accounts and I'll lodge my tax return in Oz as well. What are my best options to stay in Thailand in terms of visas. I'm happy to hop out of Thailand every 3 months or so to a neighbouring Asian city and occasionally back to Oz.

Also does anyone know of the tax implications in this sort of situation?

Many thanks.

[lopburi3]

Have you already discarded the legalities of working in Thailand without a work permit?

[oscarturtle]

Have you already discarded the legalities of working in Thailand without a work permit?

No not at all, I guess this is part of my question. If everything is actually happening officially in Aus and there is nothing on paper to indicate that I am doing my work whilst in Thailand, do I need a work permit? The nature of my work is such that I only need a laptop and I myself can be physically located anywhere. More than likely I will only be spending 6 month a year in Thailand.

[lopburi3]

Legally you do and for that you would need a non immigrant visa. But without setting up some kind of official status here there just is no legal provision for what you want to do. I am not saying it is not being done or the crime of the century; but recommending a visa becomes problematic. And I suspect tax status would be just as gray.

[JakeBKK]

I'm an Aussie planning on moving to Thailand next year to be with my Thai girlfriend. My employer here has agreed on an arrangement for me to work for them as a contractor. In effect I'll be self employed but all source of income will come from Oz, all income paid into Oz accounts and I'll lodge my tax return in Oz as well. What are my best options to stay in Thailand in terms of visas. I'm happy to hop out of Thailand every 3 months or so to a neighbouring Asian city and occasionally back to Oz.

Also does anyone know of the tax implications in this sort of situation?

Many thanks.

Your situation is a little bit special. First, how old are you? Second why do you want to pay the oz taxes on a voluntary basis?

The singapore or hongkong tax exemptions are also valid for thailand. (you could save a dollar or two.)

Greetings

Jake

[oscarturtle]

Thanks for your comments guys, seems like things might be a bit more complex than I had anticipated!

JakeBKK, I'll be 35 by the time i move to BKK. In terms of paying tax in Aus, I'd assumed that because, for all intents and purposes my "working life" will be in Aus (ie contracts, payments etc), I'd have to pay tax in Aus. I'll do some research into the tax exemption situation with HK or Sing but if you have any available about that could you point me to it please?

Once again thanks for your help.

Edited March 18, 2008 by oscarturtle

[zorro1]

Thanks for your comments guys, seems like things might be a bit more complex than I had anticipated!

JakeBKK, I'll be 35 by the time i move to BKK. In terms of paying tax in Aus, I'd assumed that because, for all intents and purposes my "working life" will be in Aus (ie contracts, payments etc), I'd have to pay tax in Aus. I'll do some research into the tax exemption situation with HK or Sing but if you have any available about that could you point me to it please?

Once again thanks for your help.

I am in exactly the same situation and would like that link. Also if I live in Thailand more than in Oz does that allow me to claim airfares and hotels while working in oz. I own a condo here but nothing in oz. I have posted this before without joy so am currently looking for international accountant

[david96]

Here is the website of the Australian Taxation Office, follow the links it gives a lot of useful information.

http://www.ato.gov.au/

http://www.ato.gov.au/content/downloads/LB...ax_Havens_w.pdf

Edited March 18, 2008 by david96

[KamnanT]

Where you are legally required to pay personal income taxes is not a matter of choice (if it was, we would all opt for a jurisdiction with no income tax!). Every country has its own legislation governing who they consider to be resident for taxation purposes. Note that "resident for tax purposes" is a completely separate concept to "resident for immigration purposes" - nothing I say here pertains to the legalities of remaining or working in Thailand. I'm discussing only the issue of where your income is taxed.

It will come as no surprise that most tax jurisdictions set the rules to try to ensnare as many taxpayers as possible. They want to collect tax from as wide a population as they can, stopping just short of taking the money from your wallet as you pass through immigration.

Generally speaking, where and how your personal income is taxed depends on (1) the source of the income and (2) where you are "tax resident". In the scenario you describe, your income is clearly "Australia source income". Your tax residence, however, will become debatable once you have "moved" to Thailand. The definition of tax residence is complex and you need to seek professional advice on this point, however as a broad rule of thumb, if you spend more than 183 days of a tax year in a given jurisdiction (be that Australia or Thailand), you will have a difficult time proving that you are not a tax resident of that jurisdiction. Adding to the complication is that Thailand and Australia have different tax years (Thailand January 1 to December 31, Australia July 1 to June 30).

Despite their intrinsic desire to shake everyone down 3 times a day, most governments have realised that taxing the same person twice on the same income lacks a certain degree of equity and fairness. So most countries, including Thailand, have negotiated bilateral Dual Taxation Agreements (DTAs) with foreign governments, the overriding intention of which is to avoid double taxation of the same income. The text of the Thailand-Australia Dual Taxation Agreement can be found at http://www.rd.go.th/publish/809.0.html.

On the bright side, there is room to minimise the tax payable on your "non-Thai source" income even if you become a tax resident of Thailand (which you inevitably will if you spend more than 50% of your time here). As intimated in an earlier post, investigate the use of Hong Kong or Singapore companies to receive your Australian income.

It is definitely worth consulting a professional accountant with experience in international taxation. Could easily save you a lot of money, stress and prison time in the future.

Edited March 18, 2008 by KamnanT

[midas]

Hi oscarturtle from a fellow Aussie !. It's possible you'll be able to get around this

and you should look into the following :-

1. Firstly if you are coming here as a contractor of an Australian company

you should be able to qualify for an APEC Business Travel Card.

In effect this is like a three-year visa except you still have to do

ninety-day visa runs.

see the web site :- http://www.businessmobility.org/key/abtc.html

There is a strict provision this does not allow you to work in Thailand but

there is a fine line between this i.e. receiving remuneration from an employer

in Thailand compared to carrying out business activities in Thailand on behalf

of an Australian employer and sounds as if this is your situation.

2. there is now a Free Trade Agreement between Australia and Thailand

and this also makes specific reference to the APEC card and the Australian government

web site says the following :-

" Business visitors

* Thailand does not require a work permit for Australian citizens who are

business visitors conducting business meetings in Thailand for up to 15 days, a

nd up to 90 days for APEC Travel Card Holders.

* Australia permits Thai citizens on business visits to enter and stay for up to 90 days "

Bearing in mind all your remuneration and other formates will remain in Australia, it

sounds to me that you may be ok with an APEC card if you can arrange all your affairs here

in Thailand as falling under the category of " conducting business meetings in Thailand ".

[oscarturtle]

Thank you everyone for all your advice. I'll investigate further into the suggestions offered here. Choc dee krap!

[singa-traz]

For Tax and double taxation, have a look at the Thailand/Australian Tax Treaty:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/809.0.html

[david96]

I'm an Aussie planning on moving to Thailand next year to be with my Thai girlfriend. My employer here has agreed on an arrangement for me to work for them as a contractor. In effect I'll be self employed but all source of income will come from Oz, all income paid into Oz accounts and I'll lodge my tax return in Oz as well. What are my best options to stay in Thailand in terms of visas. I'm happy to hop out of Thailand every 3 months or so to a neighbouring Asian city and occasionally back to Oz.

Also does anyone know of the tax implications in this sort of situation?

Many thanks.

If you earn all of your income from one source you may not be regarded as a contractor by the ATO in Australia.

A genuine contractor will have an ABN or ACN, if you earn income in Australia it will be taxed in Australia. Your income after tax will be lodged by EFT to your Australian bank account.

Check with the ATO office or a the CPA in Australia who files your existing tax return.

If you earn income in Thailand you may be subject to the Taxation requirements of that country.

You must declare all income from overseas sources in your yearly Australian tax return.

It is not as simple as it would appear.

[lopburi3]

It matters not if the income is earned in Thailand - if it is brought into Thailand in the year earned it is likely to be subject to Thai tax.

[oscarturtle]

If you earn all of your income from one source you may not be regarded as a contractor by the ATO in Australia.

A genuine contractor will have an ABN or ACN, if you earn income in Australia it will be taxed in Australia.

Hi david96,

Thanks for you comments. Yes I do have an ABN and am registered as a sole trader. Up to this point, I've done the occasional small job on the side for friends to whom I invoice with my ABN. In the future I will have to register for GST as my income through this ABN will increase over the GST exempt threshold. I still do envisage doing some other odd jobs for different people other than my current employer so they wont be the sole "client".

What a crazy world we live in eh? Just trying to earn a buck and it's full of so many complications!

[zorro1]

It matters not if the income is earned in Thailand - if it is brought into Thailand in the year earned it is likely to be subject to Thai tax.

So I guess The answer is leave it in OZ and draw from ATM

[midas]

It matters not if the income is earned in Thailand - if it is brought into Thailand in the year earned it is likely to be subject to Thai tax.

Lopburi why would this be any different from any business person spending prolonged times

in Thailand and only bringing in money to pay for accommodation, food and expenses ?

He or she would have nothing to do with the taxation authorities in Thailand ?

As I said in my previous post, if the OP is able to get an APEC card

and obtains of Austrade regarding the free trade agreement at the Australian embassy

I don't think he will find his situation as being anywhere near as complicated as

some people in this thread are trying to suggest. ! There is genuine desire

between Thailand and Australia to make things easier or at least find a way

to make things easier for people like the OP and he should investigate all these

avenues before being frightened off that he would be subject to potentially onerous taxation

scenarios.

[jstumbo]

The FTA and APEC don't really give any additional rights to Australians. This is what a normal B visa allows. With a B visa you can come into Thailand for 90 days to conduct business. If anything it seems to be even more restrictive, because it specifically says that you can come if you are a business visitor conducting business meetings.

Kind of hard to classify sitting at a computer and programming by yourself, not interacting with any Thai company as here doing business and attending a business meeting.

[midas]

The FTA and APEC don't really give any additional rights to Australians. This is what a normal B visa allows. With a B visa you can come into Thailand for 90 days to conduct business. If anything it seems to be even more restrictive, because it specifically says that you can come if you are a business visitor conducting business meetings.

Kind of hard to classify sitting at a computer and programming by yourself, not interacting with any Thai company as here doing business and attending a business meeting.

With all due respect jstumbo I still believe oscarturtle would be better to get this information

from the " horses mouth " rather than rely on some of the negative comments in this thread !

I think he should talk to the administrators APEC Card in Australia for himself.I am unaware if you are an APEC card holder ( I am on my second one now ) but

The card is only restrictive if you need to get a work permit in which case yes you need

a Non B. But the OP says he won't be working for a Thai employer.

And there are numerous benefits of having the Card rather than a Non B.

Firstly there is virtually no contact required with any Thai authorities

other than that the arrival gates in the airport ! You avoid an awful lot of Thai bureaucracy.

And it's considerably cheaper than a Non B at only $ 160 for three years.

You also get the benefit of using the diplomatic channel at immigration at thea

airport which means you are through in minutes, very useful when the lines are very long !

And because on the influence APEC has achieved in the Asian region, if you have any

problem which requires " interpretation ' andyou have

the benefit of the Australian government to support you - in other words you wouldnt

be out on a limb having to defend your case on your own with the Thailand immigration authorities.

Obviously if the OP broke the law or worked here full-time -Australia couldn't and wouldn't support

him. I'm quite confident that the APEC people in Canberra will be able to steer him in the right direction

and provide guidance is to what he can cannot do and I would encourage oscarturtle

to speak to them himself

[KamnanT]

What a crazy world we live in eh? Just trying to earn a buck and it's full of so many complications!

Never a truer word spoken. Do you want to see just how complicated the concept of tax residence gets? Try reading the ATO guidelines on the subject:

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content....mp;st=&cy=1

and then go to the "examples" page

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content....ntent/36280.htm

and try to guess for each scenario whether the taxpayer would be considered "resident" or "non-resident" by the ATO. Don't be surprised if you're wrong 1 time in 3. It is not a black and white, yes or no, in or out kind of question - the devil is in the detail.

At least Australia publishes guidelines. I've never seen any similar publically available document from the Thai Revenue Department describing what criteria they apply in making the residency determination.

[astral]

It matters not if the income is earned in Thailand - if it is brought into Thailand in the year earned it is likely to be subject to Thai tax.

This is NOT always correct.

If there is a dual taxation agreement between Australia and Thailand, as other posters have indicated,

then all you need to show is that the income has already been taxed in Australia.

Remember tax returns are not due until the end of the year.

The Thai authorities may be pissed off by this, but it is the law.

I know. They wanted to tax me again on my UK property income, brought to Thailand.

You visa status and WP are another headache for you.

[david96]

Have you already discarded the legalities of working in Thailand without a work permit?

No not at all, I guess this is part of my question. If everything is actually happening officially in Aus and there is nothing on paper to indicate that I am doing my work whilst in Thailand, do I need a work permit? The nature of my work is such that I only need a laptop and I myself can be physically located anywhere. More than likely I will only be spending 6 month a year in Thailand.

You are much in the same position as a writer of a novel or a journalist researching a story, you "work" in Thailand but your income is derived in Australia. Your "work" is sold in Australia. But in effect you are only a tourist in Thailand.

Edited March 19, 2008 by david96

[oscarturtle]

Thanks guys, I think I've worked out what is best for my situation. As I said, I'll probably only spend 6 months a year in Thailand hence I'll split the other 6 months between Aus and Hong Kong (where I can legally work). The other 6 months in Thailand will be "holiday". Seems to be the most straightforward option especially as there does not seem to be a clearcut legal infrastructure in place for my situation.