Briton Arrested For Encroaching On Public Land

[Japhrodisiac]

and one was found guilty to a lesser charge, after 17 months in prison pending trial

was that Kim Lindegaard Nielsen ?

is he still around or was he deported back to scandinavia on his release to face charges there?

I only remember reading that he was sentenced to 18 months, and was being given credit for time served, which at that point was 17 months. He should be out. I don't know him, never met the man.

[A_Traveller]

Just to note, the 25% rule is not just for plc's but is also levied against private, though owned through shareholdings, operations in a number of urisdictions, especially in the situation where the authorities are looking at the 'true control' and 'beneficial ownership' underpinning any tax case. The view that I was discussing above was reflected to me here in Thailand, not as an abstract LSE point. In realistic terms, the officer is enunciating the reality.

Regards

[choppychugger]

Briton nabbed for encroaching on public land

BANGKOK, March 18 (TNA) - A British businessman was arrested on Tuesday for allegedly encroaching on public land on the southern resort island of Samui, according to a senior officer at the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

DSI spokesman Pol. Col. Narat Sawetanant said at a press conference on Tuesday that Laurence Daniel James Fay, 32, was to face charges. Mr. Fay is accused of hiring a Thai nominee to run a real estate company.

As founder of Sabai Thani Property Co Ltd, Mr. Fay purchased several plots of public land on Samui Island before constructing a condominium and housing community, according to the spokesman.

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

*If an ever-helpful mod could please modify.... The thread title should read* :

Briton Arrested For Encroaching On Public Land

thank you...

I know the Fay guy. I use to go out with his sister in the U.K years ago. His family is extremely wealthy ( property ) - no doubt it will have an effect on the outcome of all this.

[Maigo6]

Will this start a witch hunt for all Farangs who have a house and Land in the name of a Company that only exists to circumvent Thailands Land ownership laws ?

There must be Thousands of Farangs who went The ' Company ' route to house ownership in Thailand, on the advice of Agents and Lawyers.

[Thai at Heart]

Will this start a witch hunt for all Farangs who have a house and Land in the name of a Company that only exists to circumvent Thailands Land ownership laws ?

There must be Thousands of Farangs who went The ' Company ' route to house ownership in Thailand, on the advice of Agents and Lawyers.

This will be a very interesting case. He must have really caused a stink to get caught up in this.

[Maigo6]

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Is this not the same route taken by 1000's of other Farangs in Thailand, could they all lose by having their Company ownership revoked by the Land Department ?

[midas]

Maybe if they'd just let foreigners own something the foreigners wouldn't have to go through all of this sneakiness.

Screw them if they can't handle the competition.

Foreigners don't have to break Thai laws. Foreigners don't have to own land here in Thailand. Renting is affordable and a sensible choice given that we are only temporary guests here (Tourist visas, Non-Immigrant visas etc).

This guy knew the risks. It is his folly that he chose to ignore those risks in favour of personal gain.

Not to mention dealings in real estate are a prohibited occupation for foreigners according to Thai Labour laws.

I share your sentiment but when you rent property long term here

isnt most of the rent still required " up front " in a lump sum

rather than periodic payments ? So you can still end up risking / losing

a fair amount ?

[wintermute]

I don't see what all the whining in this thread is about. He abused the hel_l out of the phoney thai nominee business system to sell valuable island real estate at 20+ million a pop. That's asking for trouble and I don't see anything to defend him on. He was trying to juke the system for lots of cash and got caught. Oh well. That would happen anywhere and this isn't a case of mean old thais picking on poor farang.

To those that say the Law is selectively enforced..well it's more likely that Thais just have tunnel vision. They don't have the resources to focus on everyone abusing the nominee system and go after the bigger fish. Noone cares if Farang X buys a dumpy house in isaan and goes through some overly complex legal loophole to own his shack. They will go after those dodging tens of millions in taxes and selling their land under their noses. Maybe there is corruption in the works, and there probably is but legally speaking what the government is doing here is completely in the right. The law is on the books and foreigners have been clearly warned about enforcing standards for the past 2 years now.

[Dupont]

Col. Narat added Mr. Fay owned 49 per cent of the company shares, but that he had hired a number of Thai nationals to possess the other remaining 51 per cent of the shares, making him the de facto owner of the company.

DSI will ask the Land Department to revoke the company's ownership, which might affect a large number of Sabai Thani clients, said the DSI spokesman.

If found guilty, the suspect might face a maximum of three years imprisonment.

Is this not the same route taken by 1000's of other Farangs in Thailand, could they all lose by having their Company ownership revoked by the Land Department ?

No its not. They were encroaching on public land for a start. Then, they were subdividing it and selling it on ie acting as estate agents etc. A far cry from what most "owners" have done which at worst is to have been badly advised.

Nobody has lost anything except the renters, who seem ever happy to throw large sums of money at Thai Landlords and pay massive (totally illegal, tax dodging) wedges of cash in the form of "Key Money to them. Then walk away and leave a stash of inventary behind and further loosing the cost of any improvements they make to the building and ususally the deposit as well! Smart?

The most extreme talk was of forcing to "dispose of land", meaning sell it or transfer it to a Thai smartish.

Yes Maigo, perhaps you and many like you wish the sky would fall in and have been predicting it for years. Bit, for now, its still Land in company name 5 - 0 Renting, Condo, 30+30+30 etc

Edited March 20, 2008 by Dupont

[Maigo6]

No its not. They were encroaching on public land for a start.

So if you don't encroach on Public Land, you're Ok ?

[mikethevigoman]

Nobody has lost anything except the renters, who seem ever happy to throw large sums of money at Thai Landlords and pay massive (totally illegal, tax dodging) wedges of cash in the form of "Key Money to them. Then walk away and leave a stash of inventary behind and further loosing the cost of any improvements they make to the building and ususally the deposit as well! Smart?

What utter nonsense. I have never heard of key money for rented accommodation in the ten years I have lived here.

I have had my full deposit back from every single landlord I have had and every rented accommodation I've lived in during those ten years.

And for me its the farang that want the high rent, not the thais,i also have rented here for 10 years on and off with no problems,

[thaigene2]

I don't recommend company structures to anyone, but the main point here is that this guy has stretched the points of tolerance a little too far. This is not a guy getting kicked out of his house.

He used the company structure to own land for development purposes, a List 1 restricted business. Then he went ahead and developed a condominium tower and a housing estate, on public land.

He was asking for trouble.

No, it's not kicking some guy out of his house, you're right but look at the bigger picture -- it IS about being 'vulnerable'. The fact is that EVERY foreigner who has used this structure to control a company for whatever reason is now VERY vulnerable. Not just property but actualy businesses too!

So now I'm a nasty Thai small business operator and I now threaten to turn you in and rat you out to the authorities..unless you make me a partner, by selling say 25% of the shares to me - for one baht or whatever. As someone above said, a whole new can of worms...and it's the foreigners that will squirming.

[Samuian]

It is all very simple - if he/the company would have done every thing right - according to the book - he and anyone involved wouldn't be in trouble, right?

Where there is smoke, there is fire.....Some behaved as in the good old golden days of Klondyke and remember those who supplied the the tools and services made it, those who did the digging, lost it all!

Just a thought or 2...

[Thai at Heart]

I don't recommend company structures to anyone, but the main point here is that this guy has stretched the points of tolerance a little too far. This is not a guy getting kicked out of his house.

He used the company structure to own land for development purposes, a List 1 restricted business. Then he went ahead and developed a condominium tower and a housing estate, on public land.

He was asking for trouble.

No, it's not kicking some guy out of his house, you're right but look at the bigger picture -- it IS about being 'vulnerable'. The fact is that EVERY foreigner who has used this structure to control a company for whatever reason is now VERY vulnerable. Not just property but actualy businesses too!

So now I'm a nasty Thai small business operator and I now threaten to turn you in and rat you out to the authorities..unless you make me a partner, by selling say 25% of the shares to me - for one baht or whatever. As someone above said, a whole new can of worms...and it's the foreigners that will squirming.

My question in all of this nominee issue, is how in a court of law do they prove that someone is actually a nominee? Under the new proposed FBA, I seem to remember that nominees face punishment too.

[Prakanong]

"My question in all of this nominee issue, is how in a court of law do they prove that someone is actually a nominee? Under the new proposed FBA, I seem to remember that nominees face punishment too. "

Well if Somchai the Tuk Tuk driver has shares how did he pay for them?

Then you could look at directors meetings minutes, dividend payouts, directors fee's as a continuing involvement and not just the single one off payment etc etc

[Thai at Heart]

"My question in all of this nominee issue, is how in a court of law do they prove that someone is actually a nominee? Under the new proposed FBA, I seem to remember that nominees face punishment too. "

Well if Somchai the Tuk Tuk driver has shares how did he pay for them?

Then you could look at directors meetings minutes, dividend payouts, directors fee's as a continuing involvement and not just the single one off payment etc etc

Source of funds is one, but if a case like this actually gets as far as court, won't it cause an absolute avalanche of problems for all businesses?

[Prakanong]

"My question in all of this nominee issue, is how in a court of law do they prove that someone is actually a nominee? Under the new proposed FBA, I seem to remember that nominees face punishment too. "

Well if Somchai the Tuk Tuk driver has shares how did he pay for them?

Then you could look at directors meetings minutes, dividend payouts, directors fee's as a continuing involvement and not just the single one off payment etc etc

Source of funds is one, but if a case like this actually gets as far as court, won't it cause an absolute avalanche of problems for all businesses?

In theory of course - thats why there was a bit of a noise when the updated FBA was proposed after the coup - just how would the TNC's (Transnational Companies) continue to operate and invest the FDI Thailand needs if their nominee structure was under threat? - that is why reassuring noises were made quickly when we all know it was Temasek it was aimed at.

Problem with going after a Singapore sovereign fund though is all of the other invstments singapore has put in since 1997 and also to look at who they are working with ie CPB who work closely with the likes of Captialand who have as major shareholders Temasek.

Of course going after all TNC's would hurt investor confidence and business sentiment too much but there are a lot of small and medium sized businessmen Thailand might not care about hurting and in fact it might become politically advantageous to do so (as well as fiscally advantageous for those who know how to take advantage).

[Thai at Heart]

"My question in all of this nominee issue, is how in a court of law do they prove that someone is actually a nominee? Under the new proposed FBA, I seem to remember that nominees face punishment too. "

Well if Somchai the Tuk Tuk driver has shares how did he pay for them?

Then you could look at directors meetings minutes, dividend payouts, directors fee's as a continuing involvement and not just the single one off payment etc etc

Source of funds is one, but if a case like this actually gets as far as court, won't it cause an absolute avalanche of problems for all businesses?

In theory of course - thats why there was a bit of a noise when the updated FBA was proposed after the coup - just how would the TNC's (Transnational Companies) continue to operate and invest the FDI Thailand needs if their nominee structure was under threat? - that is why reassuring noises were made quickly when we all know it was Temasek it was aimed at.

Problem with going after a Singapore sovereign fund though is all of the other invstments singapore has put in since 1997 and also to look at who they are working with ie CPB who work closely with the likes of Captialand who have as major shareholders Temasek.

Of course going after all TNC's would hurt investor confidence and business sentiment too much but there are a lot of small and medium sized businessmen Thailand might not care about hurting and in fact it might become politically advantageous to do so (as well as fiscally advantageous for those who know how to take advantage).

Selectively going after small medium TNC's would be very harmful. If them, why not the big guys. Dodgy land usage/chanotes is enough in this case. This story has made the Bangkok Post. If they go after selective companies for nominees, it will cause a huge mess.

[Maigo6]

If I have a house in a Company name that was set up to circumvent Thai land ownership laws, should I be concerned ?

[Foggy Bottom]

Does anyone know (even rumour) when they began investigating this case prior to pouncing?

It's an interesting juxtaposition that it comes so fast after the Nationalists return to power and Little Cousin made a quick visit to his puppets before bouncing out again - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

[Thai at Heart]

If I have a house in a Company name that was set up to circumvent Thai land ownership laws, should I be concerned ?

Legally, yes

Whether this will ever come to a head is a very political issue so it could take a very long time.

[Prakanong]

"Selectively going after small medium TNC's would be very harmful. If them, why not the big guys. Dodgy land usage/chanotes is enough in this case. This story has made the Bangkok Post. If they go after selective companies for nominees, it will cause a huge mess. "

Depends how much power selected companies have??

Thing is a Motorola or a Ford etc do have nominee's etc but they will in all probablilty be paid regularly and might even get a small dividend each year - I bet thy do not sign away all their rights and dissapear like somchai the tuk tuk Driver and Benchawan the maid do when they get 3000 THB to act in this capacity

[Prakanong]

Does anyone know (even rumour) when they began investigating this case prior to pouncing?

It's an interesting juxtaposition that it comes so fast after the Nationalists return to power and Little Cousin made a quick visit to his puppets before bouncing out again - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

Sorry but this is just too small for paranoid thinking like that.

Do you think many people really care about something like this - the big FDI investors do not giv proverbial flying #$%^ as long as they are OK and they will be

[Thai at Heart]

"Selectively going after small medium TNC's would be very harmful. If them, why not the big guys. Dodgy land usage/chanotes is enough in this case. This story has made the Bangkok Post. If they go after selective companies for nominees, it will cause a huge mess. "

Depends how much power selected companies have??

Thing is a Motorola or a Ford etc do have nominee's etc but they will in all probablilty be paid regularly and might even get a small dividend each year - I bet thy do not sign away all their rights and dissapear like somchai the tuk tuk Driver and Benchawan the maid do when they get 3000 THB to act in this capacity

Problem is writing a law saying that Somchai is a big bad nominee but the Pooyai is an honest investor. I reckon sense will prevail about nominees and restricted industries, but it may take some time coz opening this can of worms is so complicated, it will probably be better to leave it shut.

[Prakanong]

"Selectively going after small medium TNC's would be very harmful. If them, why not the big guys. Dodgy land usage/chanotes is enough in this case. This story has made the Bangkok Post. If they go after selective companies for nominees, it will cause a huge mess. "

Depends how much power selected companies have??

Thing is a Motorola or a Ford etc do have nominee's etc but they will in all probablilty be paid regularly and might even get a small dividend each year - I bet thy do not sign away all their rights and dissapear like somchai the tuk tuk Driver and Benchawan the maid do when they get 3000 THB to act in this capacity

Problem is writing a law saying that Somchai is a big bad nominee but the Pooyai is an honest investor. I reckon sense will prevail about nominees and restricted industries, but it may take some time coz opening this can of worms is so complicated, it will probably be better to leave it shut.

I agree opening the can of worms is complicated etc but remember where you are talking about and logic is a far away dream.

Thing is going afer smaller guys like this would not really hurt the conomy as a whole, would get kudos from many Thai's and would gain something for those thai's able to take over the business.

I do not know if this will happen anywhere else or whether someone had it in for this guy???

Thing is though if Puu Yai could afford the JV and turned up at meetings and was paid for his time and somchai got 3000 THB and was never saw again - they could go after that in law and it would not affect the bigger economy ie the millions of USD/YEN/SGD FDI

[Thai at Heart]

"Selectively going after small medium TNC's would be very harmful. If them, why not the big guys. Dodgy land usage/chanotes is enough in this case. This story has made the Bangkok Post. If they go after selective companies for nominees, it will cause a huge mess. "

Depends how much power selected companies have??

Thing is a Motorola or a Ford etc do have nominee's etc but they will in all probablilty be paid regularly and might even get a small dividend each year - I bet thy do not sign away all their rights and dissapear like somchai the tuk tuk Driver and Benchawan the maid do when they get 3000 THB to act in this capacity

Problem is writing a law saying that Somchai is a big bad nominee but the Pooyai is an honest investor. I reckon sense will prevail about nominees and restricted industries, but it may take some time coz opening this can of worms is so complicated, it will probably be better to leave it shut.

I agree opening the can of worms is complicated etc but remember where you are talking about and logic is a far away dream.

Thing is going afer smaller guys like this would not really hurt the conomy as a whole, would get kudos from many Thai's and would gain something for those thai's able to take over the business.

I do not know if this will happen anywhere else or whether someone had it in for this guy???

Thing is though if Puu Yai could afford the JV and turned up at meetings and was paid for his time and somchai got 3000 THB and was never saw again - they could go after that in law and it would not affect the bigger economy ie the millions of USD/YEN/SGD FDI

I reckon it might have a massive effect on thousands of individuals rich and poor and companies large and small.

[Prakanong]

"I reckon it might have a massive effect on thousands of individuals rich and poor and companies large and small. "

It certainly would but small individuals with really no political and economic clout in and of themselves.

The Thai's could pick and choose which ones to pick off as and when they liked.

Thats the problem with grey area's and bending the rules - they might just come back and bite your arse when you are least expecting them

Everyone has been doing it - I had my own company like that - thing is though most knew your coat was always on a shakey nail and the Thai's could take it when they anted if they really wanted to - thats why a lot of guy's never leave any cash earned in Thailand and go oversea's every month or so with a wad of currency for their foreign acounts in their pocket.

[PadThaiGuy]

This guy is putting a development on public land?

How does sombody aquire public land?

Isn't there property registration, land surveys, design reviews and building inspections?

[Maigo6]

If I have a house in a Company name that was set up to circumvent Thai land ownership laws, should I be concerned ?

Legally, yes

[Boater]

This guy is putting a development on public land?

How does sombody aquire public land?

Isn't there property registration, land surveys, design reviews and building inspections?

This is a good point, he did having planning permission and buliding permit for the development which you need to get via the goverment agency.... and you must have the correct land titles... unless you can pay alot of Tea Money

I would still like to know if they will be arresting the lawyers? as they seem to play a major part in this... also the goverment officer/'s who issued him all the permits on the land to build, or to mention the local village head man who knew it was goverment land but chose to turn a blind eye with a couple off 100,000 THB put into his pocket... the list is endless...

As they say, never smoke without fire!!!!

Edited March 20, 2008 by Boater