Briton Arrested For Encroaching On Public Land

[A_Traveller]

The key word is to circumvent the laws. Let's try to be clear here, the present business law prohibits nominees, indeed the Thai individuals who act as nominees to hide foreign ownership are guilty of a criminal offence, today.

Whilst the FBA2 would have moved the goalposts in terms of having voting rights proportionate to holdings, this never came to pass, because the the legislators wanted something even more draconian. However, even if the company is structured to provide preferential voting rights and benefits to the minority owner, if the Thai sponsors are unable to show that they are really involved {invested} in the company, then there is a probability that they {as well as the company} could be charged with offences under the existing law.

However, the chances of going after a single dwelling place 'holding company' seems unlikely. The reality is if someone pushes the envelope, then they may suffer the consequences, especially if local interests deem the activity, 'questionable', using the word in its widest connotation.

Regards

Edited March 20, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Thai at Heart]

The key word is to circumvent the laws. Let's try to be clear here, the present business law prohibits nominees, indeed the Thai individuals who act as nominees to hide foreign ownership are guilty of a criminal offence, today.

Whilst the FBA2 would have moved the goalposts in terms of having voting rights proportionate to holdings, this never came to pass, because the the legislators wanted something even more draconian. However, even if the company is structured to provide preferential voting rights and benefits to the minority owner, if the Thai sponsors are unable to show that they are really involved {invested} in the company, then there is a probability that they {as well as the company} could be charged with offences under the existing law.

However, the chances of going after a single dwelling place 'holding company' seems unlikely. The reality is if someone pushes the envelope, then they may suffer the consequences, especially if local interests deem the activity, 'questionable', using the word in its widest connotation.

Regards

So how does one get out of this nominee situation? If you give shares away, aren't the receivers by definition nominees even if they participate? Where are all the real Thai investors in every little farang business going to come from?

[A_Traveller]

^ Short answer is you can't. This is one of the reasons for the new company regs. which will provide for companies with 3 sponsors.

Regards

PS This 'fiddle' has been pushed for 20 odd years, with many knowing that it's against the letter of the law, the question is given the way things have moved here, are the chickens circling ready to roost? Again for single house probably, not, but 'investment operations' are a very different issue.

Edited March 20, 2008 by A_Traveller

[terryp]

And of course the land registration dept on Samui knew nothing of this Treasury owned land being sub-divided and then developed……What a load of b@ll@cks

Police made a balls up with the last Bandido they banged up…now lets try and get another, while the Thais behind all this fancy paperwork walk ???

[Samuian]

....edit... - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

Well observed, not a bad point this one, but what does it help?

The "Land-Scandal" on Samui was kicked up when his cronies had done large land deals... one of them was infamous "Ms.20%", at these times often to be seen on Samui and it wasn't only her!

[Lord Toad]

This was bound to happen in Samui. The Indigenous Thais are greedy and not very bright. They sell land for say 1 million Baht and then 2 years later it is worth 2 million.

Original landowner says “Farang cheat me he not pay enough. I should get my land back, or farang must give me more.”

So the original buyer, farang says words to the effect of sex and travel. So next thing there are all kind of moves against the farang.

Anybody who has lived in Samui with a brain saw this coming 5 years ago

[Samuian]

....edit... - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

Well observed, not a bad point this one, but what does it help?

The "Land-Scandal" on Samui was kicked up when his cronies had done large land deals... one of them was infamous "Ms.20%", at these times often to be seen on Samui and it wasn't only her!

This was bound to happen in Samui. The Indigenous Thais are greedy and not very bright. They sell land for say 1 million Baht and then 2 years later it is worth 2 million.

Original landowner says “Farang cheat me he not pay enough. I should get my land back, or farang must give me more.”

So the original buyer, farang says words to the effect of sex and travel. So next thing there are all kind of moves against the farang.

Anybody who has lived in Samui with a brain saw this coming 5 years ago

Better then 6 foot under! That could easily be the other "alternative"!

But it happened inbetween Samui Families as well..

Edited March 20, 2008 by Samuian

[Maigo6]

This was bound to happen in Samui.

Funny you should say that... many years ago I was friendly with a Thai guy that I'd met in Japan. I left Japan and he carried on working there, we kept in touch and eventually my GF and I went to visit him in Samui, it was my first trip there.

When I enquired about investing some money and starting any type of business in Samui, he immediately told me NO!

He's a Samui born and Bred guy with good contacts and yet told me to forget any business in Samui, it was too sewn up with the local mafia types and as a Farang I'd have no chance.

[Foggy Bottom]

Does anyone know (even rumour) when they began investigating this case prior to pouncing?

It's an interesting juxtaposition that it comes so fast after the Nationalists return to power and Little Cousin made a quick visit to his puppets before bouncing out again - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

Sorry but this is just too small for paranoid thinking like that.

Do you think many people really care about something like this - the big FDI investors do not giv proverbial flying #$%^ as long as they are OK and they will be

Consider recent other events that have absorbed a lot of resident foreign media time (Pai shootings for example) - in this case we have the son of a wealthy UK property-developing family banged up in a "banana republic island gaol" for following in the family tradition of developing properties. .....

As Boater said -

This is a good point, he did having planning permission and buliding permit for the development which you need to get via the goverment agency.... and you must have the correct land titles... unless you can pay alot of Tea Money

I would still like to know if they will be arresting the lawyers? as they seem to play a major part in this... also the goverment officer/'s who issued him all the permits on the land to build, or to mention the local village head man who knew it was goverment land but chose to turn a blind eye with a couple off 100,000 THB put into his pocket... the list is endless...

As they say, never smoke without fire!!!!

So now we will have the overseas press banging the drum due to the remonstrations of his family, the local-foreign media swooping because he's farang, and the local-local media rooting and snuffling because they sniff a multi-tiered corruption case a-la-Temasek but not such big bucks. After not too long, someone will write a piece comparing the corruption-facilitation on Samui to the corruption-facilitation done in the PM's office a few years back, and they will be told to wind their necks in, or their publishers will be threatened with loss of big-money advertising revenue, or whatever, and the Thai press will back slowly away. The police will begin a character assasination campaign against Fay, maybe even parading a few bar girls he allegedly corrupted, and the land office will say they were acting undercover on behalf of the police, when they issued land papers, in order to catch and convict a major Anglo-mafia boss.

Samak and the newly appointed Head of Land will have to host a dinner for the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce in Bangkok to assure them that the People's Power Party is not intended to incite racial prejudice against foreign investors, nor to encourage siezure of assets that foreigners have purchased in Thailand. (errrrr .... hasn't someone already tried that and quite a few fell for it, only to later have their eyes opened to what the rest of us had already seen BEFORE the year 2000 election?)

Then in 2-3 years, Andy Drummond will write, narrate, and present a major expose for the BBC or Witzend Films or similar and the whole thing will flare up again.

At which time .....

And of course the land registration dept on Samui knew nothing of this Treasury owned land being sub-divided and then developed……What a load of b@ll@cks

Police made a balls up with the last Bandido they banged up…now lets try and get another, while the Thais behind all this fancy paperwork walk ???

Of course Terry, but remember what the culture and travel guide books teach us - Thai Culture is non-confrontational and causing a Thai to lose face is confrontational in the same way that arresting them (properly with hands cuffed behind them) at airports on arrival is confrontational. If the land registry staff and managers aren't allowed to walk, they might spill the beans about to whom, higher up, they paid their corruption-license fee.

Pyramids within pyramids

TiT - it ain't Las Vegas

[Samuian]

It comes all down to: "Whom you know, not what you know"! And be able to stay connected!

"Face loss" can be incurred as well! Then there are plenty of "reasons".

and never forget it's common that "Big fish eat the small fish.." as a rule of thumb!

Edited March 20, 2008 by Samuian

[Tony121]

This case goes back to 2006 see the thread in the samui forum, I think the main thing they have arrested him for is land encroachment, They like to charge someone with as much as possible then they have a chance of making one conviction hence the company charge.

If you own a few properties in a shell company you are a long way down the list, if you encroach on public land and seem to be making lot's of money and a falang you will be at the top!

[Thai at Heart]

Does anyone know (even rumour) when they began investigating this case prior to pouncing?

It's an interesting juxtaposition that it comes so fast after the Nationalists return to power and Little Cousin made a quick visit to his puppets before bouncing out again - is this an attempt to divert the foreign community and press from his own shenanigans and court cases? It's the type of diversion and smokescreen he used to throw up all the time when he was in power, and he had 18 months of thinking and scheming time while kicking his heels in exile.

...mmmm? Just musing and looking for a bigger picture behind all of this - want to see the wood as well as the trees.

Sorry but this is just too small for paranoid thinking like that.

Do you think many people really care about something like this - the big FDI investors do not giv proverbial flying #$%^ as long as they are OK and they will be

Consider recent other events that have absorbed a lot of resident foreign media time (Pai shootings for example) - in this case we have the son of a wealthy UK property-developing family banged up in a "banana republic island gaol" for following in the family tradition of developing properties. .....

As Boater said -

This is a good point, he did having planning permission and buliding permit for the development which you need to get via the goverment agency.... and you must have the correct land titles... unless you can pay alot of Tea Money

I would still like to know if they will be arresting the lawyers? as they seem to play a major part in this... also the goverment officer/'s who issued him all the permits on the land to build, or to mention the local village head man who knew it was goverment land but chose to turn a blind eye with a couple off 100,000 THB put into his pocket... the list is endless...

As they say, never smoke without fire!!!!

So now we will have the overseas press banging the drum due to the remonstrations of his family, the local-foreign media swooping because he's farang, and the local-local media rooting and snuffling because they sniff a multi-tiered corruption case a-la-Temasek but not such big bucks. After not too long, someone will write a piece comparing the corruption-facilitation on Samui to the corruption-facilitation done in the PM's office a few years back, and they will be told to wind their necks in, or their publishers will be threatened with loss of big-money advertising revenue, or whatever, and the Thai press will back slowly away. The police will begin a character assasination campaign against Fay, maybe even parading a few bar girls he allegedly corrupted, and the land office will say they were acting undercover on behalf of the police, when they issued land papers, in order to catch and convict a major Anglo-mafia boss.

Samak and the newly appointed Head of Land will have to host a dinner for the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce in Bangkok to assure them that the People's Power Party is not intended to incite racial prejudice against foreign investors, nor to encourage siezure of assets that foreigners have purchased in Thailand. (errrrr .... hasn't someone already tried that and quite a few fell for it, only to later have their eyes opened to what the rest of us had already seen BEFORE the year 2000 election?)

Then in 2-3 years, Andy Drummond will write, narrate, and present a major expose for the BBC or Witzend Films or similar and the whole thing will flare up again.

At which time .....

And of course the land registration dept on Samui knew nothing of this Treasury owned land being sub-divided and then developed……What a load of b@ll@cks

Police made a balls up with the last Bandido they banged up…now lets try and get another, while the Thais behind all this fancy paperwork walk ???

Of course Terry, but remember what the culture and travel guide books teach us - Thai Culture is non-confrontational and causing a Thai to lose face is confrontational in the same way that arresting them (properly with hands cuffed behind them) at airports on arrival is confrontational. If the land registry staff and managers aren't allowed to walk, they might spill the beans about to whom, higher up, they paid their corruption-license fee.

Pyramids within pyramids

TiT - it ain't Las Vegas

And whilst I was listening to, "ah the big companies will win, and the little guys get screwed", you put your finger absolutley on the end game button and pressed it.

Nobody will in reality get prosecuted for nominees, because there are too many important people making shed fulls out of it. It seems he probably bribed so many people that the entire land department of Samui got a bit. Very Thai style actually.

He might lose the land because of shoddy land deeds, but..........................

[Foggy Bottom]

And whilst I was listening to, "ah the big companies will win, and the little guys get screwed", you put your finger absolutley on the end game button and pressed it.

Nobody will in reality get prosecuted for nominees, because there are too many important people making shed fulls out of it. It seems he probably bribed so many people that the entire land department of Samui got a bit. Very Thai style actually.

He might lose the land because of shoddy land deeds, but..........................

(chopping the nested quotes to keep things focussed)

And your last line is the serious crux of the matter. If this ever makes court, the media collectively (and in chorus) SHOULD be screaming out, "HEY JUDGE - Just where in heck did he get the land deeds in the first place?" with the follow on question of, "If he followed the officials who advised him what to do and gave him the documents, then how can he be guilty?"

Of course, the liklihood is that the Thai media will never do that, but this is one of those truly worthwhile cases where a journo with good foreign publication contacts could really bring down the Samui house of cards. Unfortunately mine ain't heavyweight enough, I'm not sure Shawn Crispin has the cred for a story like this, and I think Rodney Tasker is now officially retired, which brings us back to Andrew Drummond and his contacts at The Times, The Guardian, and The Telegraph in London, plus whoever elsewhere.

Write this one up correctly and it could read as yet another foreigner enamoured with Thailand invests his lifesavings to build a (set of) home(s) and gets shafted by racially prejudicial Thai property laws and corrupt officials, losing everything and having the property siezed then resold for (further) personal gain by those same officials who set him up in the first place ...

... hmmm could be a movie in this, or at very least a badly scripted BBC series about expats on the Costa del .... nahh they did that already What the heck was that series called (it's gonna bug me now) .

[Thai at Heart]

And whilst I was listening to, "ah the big companies will win, and the little guys get screwed", you put your finger absolutley on the end game button and pressed it.

Nobody will in reality get prosecuted for nominees, because there are too many important people making shed fulls out of it. It seems he probably bribed so many people that the entire land department of Samui got a bit. Very Thai style actually.

He might lose the land because of shoddy land deeds, but..........................

(chopping the nested quotes to keep things focussed)

And your last line is the serious crux of the matter. If this ever makes court, the media collectively (and in chorus) SHOULD be screaming out, "HEY JUDGE - Just where in heck did he get the land deeds in the first place?" with the follow on question of, "If he followed the officials who advised him what to do and gave him the documents, then how can he be guilty?"

Of course, the liklihood is that the Thai media will never do that, but this is one of those truly worthwhile cases where a journo with good foreign publication contacts could really bring down the Samui house of cards. Unfortunately mine ain't heavyweight enough, I'm not sure Shawn Crispin has the cred for a story like this, and I think Rodney Tasker is now officially retired, which brings us back to Andrew Drummond and his contacts at The Times, The Guardian, and The Telegraph in London, plus whoever elsewhere.

Write this one up correctly and it could read as yet another foreigner enamoured with Thailand invests his lifesavings to build a (set of) home(s) and gets shafted by racially prejudicial Thai property laws and corrupt officials, losing everything and having the property siezed then resold for (further) personal gain by those same officials who set him up in the first place ...

... hmmm could be a movie in this, or at very least a badly scripted BBC series about expats on the Costa del .... nahh they did that already What the heck was that series called (it's gonna bug me now) .

Exactly! If it's on the front page of the Bangkok post, it is enough. As quickly as they are making charges, someone in Bangkok is on the phone telling them, stop now! Anyone got the phone number for the British Chamber of Commerce?

They are all so dirty, they won't even be able to make this one stick.

Who sold the land? Siam Commercial Bank? Last time I looked they put the financing together for a rather large controversial nominee takeover of a certain telecoms company.

[brain150]

It is truly amzing how much people talk (or write) without having any clue what the whole thing is about.

How does anybody know he built on public land and knowing it (maybe he was a victim to a fake land transfer himself ?)? Maybe the fake was before he got involved ? Maybe he was just stupid ? Maybe other people are investigated ? Maybe the media just knows a small piece of what is really happening (happens quite many times) ? What about the Lawyers and officials ? Maybe the whole thing is more complicated and much bigger than many might think ?

... still everybody makes his own story out of it ... truly wonderful. Not really funny but obviously many people in here miss the yellow press from europe and try to create their own in here.

[Foggy Bottom]

As Tony posted up there at #76 - the thread in the Samui forum lays it all out. Including that apparently was 23 and penniless when he started putting all this together and allegedly never put a cent of his own dosh into the development.

I recommend all readers of this thread go read that one then come back to post here

It's past my bedtime now, so I'll check back in the morning

Night night all

Gaz

[A_Traveller]

Gaz, sadly I know this, owing to connexions with the the Spanish side, it was called Eldorado.

Regards

Edited March 20, 2008 by A_Traveller

[tw25rw]

Maybe if they'd just let foreigners own something the foreigners wouldn't have to go through all of this sneakiness.

Screw them if they can't handle the competition.

I think it's great that they do that. I wish my country, Australia, would also stop foreigners owning land. At least those who are not entitled to live on it.

[Foggy Bottom]

Gaz, sadly I know this, owing to connexions with the the Spanish side, it was called Eldorado.

Regards

Thanks traveller - the only bit I remember about it was the baldy 50 year old that married that gorgeous young chick (who I think was called Bunny) and that mostly it took place in a shop and around some condo-villas or something.

tw25rw - are you referring to all the non-aboriginal immigrants of the last two and a half centuries when you make that statement?

Emperor - agreed, but why should he take ALL the blame and punishment? As a farang, he so obviously needed facilitations from Thais, who unless prosecuted and banged up with him, are just going to do it again, and again, and again.

[brain150]

Hang on, so a Westerner has been caught encroaching on public land, owning land illegally (he never owned any land - the company did, just like most other property owners in Thailand which are not Thai)) and now some posters want the investigation to arrest all the people that assisted him.

not some posters but the authorities maybe (surely)

Seems to me these posters are trying to deflect attention from the very real crimes (not to mention mistakes) this man has made. (did he ? there was not even a trial yet)

Again, the bottom line is he was breaking the law in a foreign country. He knew what he was doing, now it's time to take it on the chin. (did he know ? )

"If he followed the officials who advised him what to do and gave him the documents, then how can he be guilty?"

Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law I'm afraid, and let's be honest, he was in this with full knowledge of what he was doing. (was he? and what about the buyers who hold perfect landpapers signed from the land office ? are the also guilty ? )

Even if he didn't know that he was encroaching on public land he was operating illegally. (did he know that ? )

We all know what Samui is like (and I've only been there once very briefly) (yes, I know all about the property market in Alaska, too ... because everybody KNOWS it ) and if you dance with the devil you're going to get burned.

much talking and no clue what he is talking about ... but he knows everything

[southwest19]

Emperor - agreed, but why should he take ALL the blame and punishment? As a farang, he so obviously needed facilitations from Thais, who unless prosecuted and banged up with him, are just going to do it again, and again, and again.

In a fair and just society he shouldn't, but the reality is that this is Thailand, and even worse, Samui, and he has got his fingers burnt dealing with the locals down there.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of foreigners that think they can come here, ignore the laws, play the same game as the Thais and expect to walk away as winners.

Ain't gonna happen.

This thread has even managed to surpass the usual boll**ks on Thai Visa with uninformed posts made by people who have nothing better to do than sit in there 8,000 baht per month rentals and hide behind your keyboards.

95% of the posts are at best way off the mark and whilst others are illegal. He is already home fyg and I hope he reads some of the above and instructs his lawyers to start libel proceedings against not only the posters but also ThaiVisa for allowing them to appear in the public domain and don't think Thai Visa can protect your identity they cannot.

Something else I am sure most of you don't know is Mr Fay raised over 120,000 THb to have his head shaved at a recent charity event and he also employs many Thai people.

This is my last post on this forum and my last message to to most of the members (not all) is get a life.

[grantbkk]

Poor British man lands in Koh Samui and sees some vacant land with good prospects for development. Who exactly did he and his cohorts buy the land from? How much did he and his syndicate pay for the land and the titles if they were provided separately. Obviously some here on TV think Thai lawyers for the most part are just working for their client. Exactly how much are they paid for their invaluable services. The larger question now is how much he made from the sale of the plots minus bribes. This appears to be criminal activity on the surface. Getting your head shaved in preparation for prison in the name of charity I have to admit is unusual. If he thought he could come to Thailand to make billions of Baht from legal land deals on Samui he was either predisposed to being a criminal or just plain stupid. If one bribe was paid to a land office official I don't see how this guy can be defended in any way. The people who invested in what appears to be a criminal enterprise may have not known they had fraudulent titles to their dream homes. They are just going to lose their money, which is a tragedy by the way. Feel free to put "alleged" and "suspect" wherever you want in the previous sentences.

[taxexile]

He is already home

in the uk , or his home on samui ?

was he arrested on this grave charge and immediately released on bail , or was he never arrested in the first place ??

usually there are photos in the papers when they arrest someone here , any links to photos ??

[Totster]

We have been informed that this person has been released.

Topic Closed until if and when more information becomes available.

Totster