Penniless Peasants/monks In The Money

[SebD]

Has anyone noticed that many of the Thai population live below the poverty line and some are all but dying in the streets, yet many of those, orange-robed, collectors/distributors of Alms for the Poor may be observed in the likes of Pantip Plaza, negotiating the purchase of phones, Laptops, Apple-Macs etc (all of which cost as much in LOS as they do here in the UK).

From where did they obtain all that Baht?

I can't help but wonder.

Could it be from the Donations kitty?

On my most recent trip, I also observed a "Monk" (or someone dressed as a Monk) walking amongst the farangs along Sukhumvit (BKK) and the farang-packed sois, branching thereof, openly begging (and equally happy to accept money delivered DIRECTLY into his hand from female as well as male contributors - in stark flagrance of the non-female contact vows he took).

How long, before he's "earned" his new Dual Core laptop, whilst his flock stay hungry?

[howtoescape]

In the tourist areas there does seem to be a lot of fake monks must be the latest scam, if the girls dont give them money or it is a strange time for them to be seen then he is a scam artist.

Not all Monks come from poor families hence why they can afford to buy laptops etc....

[crowbait]

Not all monks are monks for a long time.............many Thai men enter monastries for short periods (1-3 months) several times during their working lives, they do it to make merit for members of their families (typically their mothers or other female relatives who can't do it for themselves).

Sometimes, they will enter as the result of a vow (wish fulfilled) or to repent for an action. Once a man has served as a novice and been accepted, he can re-enter the monastry more or less as he wants (providing the abbot agrees).

[PadThaiGuy]

More fake Monks around these days than legit.

Saw one yesterday, go into a coffee shop at noon, harrassing people, shoving his bowl into their faces.

He made a quik getaway when I started snapping his picture.

When I leave my place in the morning I pass:

The fake Tuk Tuk / Taxi driver, lieing to tourists all day.(conmman posing at transportation).

The fake 'students' doing a fake 'survey'.

The fake 'beggers' (you know, the mangled, diseased Cambodians that some punks place all over town every day).

The fake Nuns (white outfits and posted at BTS stops).

The fake 'tourist helpers' (well dressed Thais posing as nice people telling lost tourist lies).

The fake Police.(well real cops, doing criminal activity).

The vendors selling fake goods.

The fake smiles by people I meet all day, doing business wanting to overcharge the farang.

[chevykanteve]

More fake Monks around these days than legit.

Saw one yesterday, go into a coffee shop at noon, harrassing people, shoving his bowl into their faces.

He made a quik getaway when I started snapping his picture.

When I leave my place in the morning I pass:

The fake Tuk Tuk / Taxi driver, lieing to tourists all day.(conmman posing at transportation).

The fake 'students' doing a fake 'survey'.

The fake 'beggers' (you know, the mangled, diseased Cambodians that some punks place all over town every day).

The fake Nuns (white outfits and posted at BTS stops).

The fake 'tourist helpers' (well dressed Thais posing as nice people telling lost tourist lies).

The fake Police.(well real cops, doing criminal activity).

The vendors selling fake goods.

The fake smiles by people I meet all day, doing business wanting to overcharge the farang.

You forgot the fake boy scouts.

[PadThaiGuy]

More fake Monks around these days than legit.

Saw one yesterday, go into a coffee shop at noon, harrassing people, shoving his bowl into their faces.

He made a quik getaway when I started snapping his picture.

When I leave my place in the morning I pass:

The fake Tuk Tuk / Taxi driver, lieing to tourists all day.(conmman posing at transportation).

The fake 'students' doing a fake 'survey'.

The fake 'beggers' (you know, the mangled, diseased Cambodians that some punks place all over town every day).

The fake Nuns (white outfits and posted at BTS stops).

The fake 'tourist helpers' (well dressed Thais posing as nice people telling lost tourist lies).

The fake Police.(well real cops, doing criminal activity).

The vendors selling fake goods.

The fake smiles by people I meet all day, doing business wanting to overcharge the farang.

You forgot the fake boy scouts.

or the fake volunteers collecting for Tsunami victims....

[SebD]

I do realise that not all monks are poor, per se.

I also know that some are monks for only a short period of time (my son-in-law was a monk for only 11 days as a result of his mum's - my lady's - wishes - and his own fullfilment).

But from a Westerner's perspective (even mine after many years of visiting Thailand - let alone my 19 year old daughter's, who visited the land for her first time, this year with us) it can appear distasteful that a monk is spending £500-£1000 + on electronic equipment, while his own poorer people are left to (genuinely need to) to beg in the streets in order to survive.

If they are a short-time monk, can't they leave it 'til later and if they're rich can't they buy it on-line or get a friend to do it, if it's so urgent?

Could not the Abbot "'ave a word in their shell-like"?

As for a monk openly begging...........

On a brighter note.

My lady was most impressed with the new gilt (or should that read guilt) covered lampost upon lampost at 10 yard intervals that are currently being erected along a 5 mile or so stretch of the highway between BKK and Kanchanaburi, complete with gilted dolphins to either side and Thai flags and furled emblems and frequent posters of HRH at, relatively significant cost (quite excited, she was). While the very fabric of the country (that being, its people) suffer hardship and lack of proper medical care etc.

My daughter, on the other hand, was quite disgusted.

Try as I might, I couldn't get her to grasp the "Don't judge because the culture is different" argument.

Thailand was fortunate in our case that I (and my lady) were there to fight its corner.

Most first time visitors only see what my daughter saw, without explanation.

Little wonder that few (except for the brigade that love to have their photo's taken with a drugged and doomed chimp or marmoset on their shoulder &/or a boa-constrictor around their neck) return?

[endure]

The cure for all the western hand wringing about these awful Buddhist monks is to talk to a Thai postgrad student attending a university in the west. It won't take long to realise that your western assumptions simply don't apply half a world away.

[realmadrid25]

students with fake survey?

[SebD]

The cure for all the western hand wringing about these awful Buddhist monks is to talk to a Thai postgrad student attending a university in the west. It won't take long to realise that your western assumptions simply don't apply half a world away.

Meaning?

(And there was I, thinking English was my first language).

[endure]

students with fake survey?

Explain please?

[realmadrid25]

The fake 'students' doing a fake 'survey'.

[SebD]

students with fake survey?

I'm with you, mate.

Have done their survey.

Never cost me a satang.

They're always happy I've done it and offer me a free postcard as a thankyou.

What's fake?

Maybe they're students conducting a survey (wich they are).

[endure]

They must be pretty convincing fakes to have travelled 12,000 miles and have gained admission to one of the Uk's best universities to do Doctoral studies. You are making assumptions about a religious institution that welcomes all comers for as short or as long a time as they like and comparing it to religious institutions in the west that require entrants to devote their whole life to it.

[peter991]

students with fake survey?

Happens to me every time I come to Thailand - at least in Bangkok and Pattaya if I am by myself, strolling along, window shopping (without a Thai friend).

It works like this:

Stopped on the footpath by a well-dressed 'student' in their late teens / early 20s.

Asked to fill in a survey - which asks your name, where you are staying (hotel or condo address), length of stay, nationality etc.

If/when you ask the reason for the survey - you may be told the truth (which is it is for a time-share condo and the 'student' is on a commission of 200 baht per completed survey - and possibly more for a sale).

Often you are given a scratch & win ticket. Every ticket is a winner. This entitles you to catch a baht bus/tuk tuk, which mysteriously appears immediately - so you can sign up.

I never give my address to anybody like this - I want to come to Thailand to relax.

Peter

[sgunn65]

I have a very simple solution to the survey/timeshare brigade which has worked everytime without fail. The first question they ask is, "Where are you from?". I say "Sweden" and they say thank you and go to the next person!! No hassle, no avoidance, easy.

I don't know why Swedes are not needed for timeshares maybe it is just they are told to target Brits, but it is 100% successful

[Chang_paarp]

students with fake survey?

Happens to me every time I come to Thailand - at least in Bangkok and Pattaya if I am by myself, strolling along, window shopping (without a Thai friend).

It works like this:

Stopped on the footpath by a well-dressed 'student' in their late teens / early 20s.

Asked to fill in a survey - which asks your name, where you are staying (hotel or condo address), length of stay, nationality etc.

If/when you ask the reason for the survey - you may be told the truth (which is it is for a time-share condo and the 'student' is on a commission of 200 baht per completed survey - and possibly more for a sale).

Often you are given a scratch & win ticket. Every ticket is a winner. This entitles you to catch a baht bus/tuk tuk, which mysteriously appears immediately - so you can sign up.

I never give my address to anybody like this - I want to come to Thailand to relax.

Peter

It always starts with "Where do you come from?" so I answer "Tambon Pong" ? "Banglumung, I live here." They go away.

[jdinasia]

This is an amazing thread for people that just want to whinge!

Your opinions of monks at Pantip is irrelevant Why are they there? Are they students? Who supplies the money they use? ALL irrelevant.

[Aries74]

This is an amazing thread for people that just want to whinge!

Your opinions of monks at Pantip is irrelevant Why are they there? Are they students? Who supplies the money they use? ALL irrelevant.

We should beg the monks for money when we see them. Some monks do fortune telling or palm reading at temple and the individual gave them money. They can earn salary tax free.

[camerata]

Has anyone noticed that many of the Thai population live below the poverty line and some are all but dying in the streets, yet many of those, orange-robed, collectors/distributors of Alms for the Poor may be observed in the likes of Pantip Plaza, negotiating the purchase of phones, Laptops, Apple-Macs etc (all of which cost as much in LOS as they do here in the UK).

Leaving aside the question of fake monks and foreign Mahayana monks (who are allowed to beg for money), the real Thai monks generally aren't distributors of alms to the poor. The laity is supposed to support the Sangha in the material sense while the monastics support the laity in the spiritual sense.

But monks are not to supposed to have any desire for material things at all. The problem today is that as Thailand becomes more secular, the number of monks is declining rapidly. This is a crisis in a country for which Buddhism is an inseparable part of the national identity. When monks break the monastic precepts by handling money etc, I suspect the temple abbots are turning a blind eye because of the shortage of monks in general. And for that reason I don't see the situation improving anytime soon.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

The best thing to deal with the "survey students" is - tell them right away that you are not a tourist OR you'll be leaving the very next day. They will leave you alone after that. If it's a REAL survey (such as one about MBK, done at the entry of MBK) it will NEVER ask for such details like where you stay etc.

How it works? When you give them your name and the name of your Hotel, they will call there and ask for your room number. In the evening you will receive a call stating that you won "travel bag/gift voucher/weekend at hotel" and you can pick up your price at "name of some Hotel in Bangkok". So you go there, receive your "winning" but they won't let you leave before you sat thru a sales pitch about time sharing or "hotel membership" (another form of time sharing actually).

The "hotel membership" is actually more genuine than the "student" approach - my boyfriend did that one for a while (for the "Tai-Pan" hotel), they were hired directly by the hotel in question and did their "survey" dressed in a uniform from that hotel, also the "survey" was openly on behalf of the hotel in question. And it's amazing which hotels do these - the "Hilton" amongs them, no joke! They also tele-market these memberships, but to Thais only.

As to the monks, only once a "monk" approached me for money and i did not give any to him. But i DID give money to the genuine monks that walk thru my soi in the early morning to receive food from some people (the temple is only a couple of kilometers away).

The "nuns" (females in white "monk-ish" attire) also openly ask for money, as do hoardes of "boy scouts" which even give you a medal or something (done that once, been informed by my BF that they are fake) and those "donation seekers" that show you a book full of pictures of sick people, not speaking a word, and next showing you a list of names and Baht amounts - supposedly people that have donated. If you donate less than 100 Baht they won't let you sign the list, but 100 Baht + you can sign and get a "certificate" made out in Thai and Chinese - my boyfriend told me that those are genuine and that burning that certificate would bring luck.

Something i always "donate" is when i sit in McDonalds and there's a person, usually deaf-mute, going around and placing cute little wooden dolls or key chains on every table, then making a second round to either try to get money for them or taking them back. I never know if that is genuine, but i once saw a Farang in McDonalds just taking the doll and leaving the restaurant while the girl was trying to make him understand it's a donation (she had it all written down but in Thai only) and she almost burst into tears when that happened. I've "bought" a number of these little things over the years, altough they are happy with 10 Baht i usually give 50 or 100 depending on what it is.

And about the beggars, those in the tourist areas are a nuisance. And almost always fake! I saw that guy that's always sitting in the narrow footpath between WTC and Prathunam with his long-sleeved sweater (sleeves empty because "he has no arms") getting up and running like a cheetah - BOTH ARMS VERY MUCH INTACT UNDER THAT SWEATER - when a cop approached him. But there's one on the footbridge near Udomsuk whom i always give 20 or 50 Baht..... he plays the "saw" or what they call that and i really love the music. So - i give if i get something in return, be that a blessing from a genuine buddhist monk, a key chain or a melancholic song from a traditional Thai instrument.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[SebD]

This is an amazing thread for people that just want to whinge!

But I wasn't having a whinge. I'm unaffected as I'm not a destitute Thai. The only person with a whinge is.....

.......errrrr.....

.......it's you, isn't it.

Your opinions of monks at Pantip is irrelevant Why are they there? Did I ask that? News to me! Are they students? Who asked if they were students? You really ought to read and digest a post's contents prior to submitting a pithy, ill-thought out response. Who supplies the money they use? ALL irrelevant.

You describe my opinions as being irrelevant (twice). Not relevant to what? To who? Perhaps not yourself, but my post was not aimed at yourself in seclusion. If it's so irrelevant, why bother to respond? I'd imagine there is a relevance to people who might be giving charity that may be misused or to the intended recipient of said charity. But perhaps I'm just being old-fashioned.

I proffered no opinions - merely observations.

My posting of this Thread was my first and was intended to illicit the opinions of others, both more or less knowledgeable of the subject than I (like from someone who has submitted thousands of previous posts, perchance?!)

Your response was not even that. Not even a real opinon in itself. It was simply a negative and nasty little attempt to slag off the subject and make you appear all worldly, without even having any substance of it's own.

Oh, by the way, your is most appreciated.

But, to get back on topic:

Happily for me and others who may be interested, some of the other Board Members sought to exchange their opinions &/or experience on the subject and I am gratefully the wiser for their positive input and knowledge.

[jdinasia]

Has anyone noticed that many of the Thai population live below the poverty line and some are all but dying in the streets, yet many of those, orange-robed, collectors/distributors of Alms for the Poor may be observed in the likes of Pantip Plaza, negotiating the purchase of phones, Laptops, Apple-Macs etc (all of which cost as much in LOS as they do here in the UK).

From where did they obtain all that Baht?

I can't help but wonder.

Could it be from the Donations kitty?

On my most recent trip, I also observed a "Monk" (or someone dressed as a Monk) walking amongst the farangs along Sukhumvit (BKK) and the farang-packed sois, branching thereof, openly begging (and equally happy to accept money delivered DIRECTLY into his hand from female as well as male contributors - in stark flagrance of the non-female contact vows he took).

How long, before he's "earned" his new Dual Core laptop, whilst his flock stay hungry?

OK .. let's deal with this directly since you seem to be not only the moral arbiter for what monks should and should not be seen doing.

Pantip --- Wow, was the monk buying a laptop for the local temple school? Was the monk a student at one of the Buddhist Universities that are just for monks? Do you have any clue as to what monks do or do not do in Thailand?

Sure there are crappy monks .. and crappy vicars ... and crappy priests all over the world.

Suk-- I assume you mean lower Suk where the girl bars are? Very likely they are not monks at all, then again maybe they are in town from the poorest regions of Thailand and whilst not behaving properly are doing it for the right reasons?

Judge them all you want! Just realize that you are clueless while you do so since you do not know them or their situations

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Guess what - "Monks" and "Panthip" always makes me laugh - for almost every time i go there i see them shopping for the "sexy movie" kind of CD's. And they are young ones (novices?) as well as old ones who certainly aren't temple school students.

Or maybe that type of CD is used as teaching material - such as "And today we show what kind of stuff NEVER to watch!"

Best regards.....

Thanh

[clausewitz]

A Life Free from Money:

Information about the Money Rules for Buddhist Monks and Nuns

Bhikkhu Dhamminda

This manuscript may be reproduced without the permission of the author

-Contents

Information about the Money Rules

This article was written for the many bhikkhus who have asked me questions about the money rules found in the Vinaya. Since a newly ordained bhikkhu has little chance of being able to read the commentaries I have translated many sections from there. I hope that there is sufficient information in this article to help bhikkhus to understand how to keep these rules.

Part 1. Information for Lay Supporters

Do you know that the Buddha did not allow monks and novices to accept money?

You will certainly have noticed that the vast majority of monks do accept and use money. This is one of the factors that will lead to the disappearance of the Buddha´s Teaching. You can help to keep the Buddha´s Teaching alive by learning how to offer allowable requisites.

In this section we will list the main points that a layperson should remember so that a monk (bhikkhu) may obtain requisites without breaking the rules of Vinaya.

1. Never offer money to bhikkhus, but only offer allowable requisites such as robes, medicine, books, or tickets for transport. If you are unsure as to what a bhikkhu needs then you can ask him, or invite him to ask you if he needs anything.

2. A fund for requisites can be left with a kappiya (someone who performs services for a bhikkhu) and he should be instructed to buy and offer requisites for a bhikkhu, a group of bhikkhus, or the sangha of a monastery. Do not ask the bhikkhu, `To whom should this be given to?´ If you ask in this way then it is not allowable for a bhikkhu to point out a kappiya. Simply say, `Venerable Sir, I want to offer requisites to you. Who is your kappiya?´

3. Having instructed the kappiya then inform the bhikkhu by saying, `I have left a fund for requisites worth `x´ dollars with your kappiya. When you need requisites ask him and he will offer them to you.´

4. If you already know who the bhikkhu´s kappiya is then you can simply leave the fund with the kappiya and inform the bhikkhu as above in no 3.

Please read the above carefully and take note of what to say. The above procedure was allowed by the Buddha in what is called the `Mendaka allowance´. It is found in the Bhesajja Khandhaka of Mahavagga in the Vinaya Pitaka and the translation of it reads:

Bhikkhus, there are people of faith and respect and if they should entrust money in the hands of a kappiya and instruct him saying, `With this money offer allowable requisites to this Venerable One,´ then bhikkhus I allow you to accept whatever allowable requisites are obtained with that money, but bhikkhus, in no way whatsoever do I allow money to be accepted or searched for.´

Also a rule called Raja-sikkhapada, the tenth rule of the Kathina Vagga in the Nissaggiya Pacittiya section of the Patimokkha gives relevant information. It is translated as follows:

QUOTE

If a king, a king´s officer, a brahmin, or a layperson should send a messenger with money in order to buy a robe for a bhikkhu saying, `Having bought a robe with this money offer it to such and such a bhikkhu,´ and if that messenger should approach that bhikkhu and say, `Venerable Sir, this money for buying a robe has been brought here for you. Venerable Sir, please accept this money for buying a robe.´ Then that bhikkhu should say to that messenger, `We do not accept money for buying a robe, we accept robes if they are offered at an appropriate time and if they are allowable.´

If then that messenger should ask, `Venerable Sir, is there anyone who performs services for you?´ Then if that bhikkhu wants a robe he should point out someone who performs services for him be he a monastery attendant or a layperson saying, `Such and such performs services for bhikkhus.´

If that messenger having instructed that person who performs services should then approach that bhikkhu and say, `That person who you pointed out has been instructed by me. Venerable Sir, approach him at an appropriate time and he will offer you a robe.´ Then a bhikkhu who wants a robe having approached that person who performs services can ask or remind him two or three times saying, `I need a robe.´

If having asked or reminded two or three times he obtains that robe then that is good. If he should not obtain it then he can stand silently for four, five, or six times in order to obtain that robe. If having stood silently for four, five, or six times he obtains that robe then that is good. If he should make any more effort than this and he obtains that robe then it is a nissaggiya pacittiya offense.

If he does not obtain that robe then he should go himself or he should send a messenger to that person who sent that money for buying a robe and say, `That money for buying a robe for a bhikkhu that you sent has produced nothing at all for that bhikkhu, try to get your money returned to you lest your money be lost.´ This is what should be done.

Part 2. The Fault in Accepting Money

Before he passed away the Buddha said that after his death the sangha, if it wanted to, could revoke the lesser and minor rules of the Vinaya. Some bhikkhus quote this as a reason to support their acceptance of money, but the following quotes from the suttas show that the rules prohibiting money are not lesser or minor rules. The money rules are shown by these quotes to be fundamental and essential for the attainment of enlightenment. Maniculaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatana Samyutta, Gamani Vagga, sutta no. 10):

QUOTE

At one time, the Blessed One was living in Rajagaha in the place where squirrels and birds were fed called Veluvana. At that time in the king´s palace, the king´s retinue were assembled and whilst assembled this conversation arose amongst them:

`Gold, silver, and money are allowable for those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince (the Buddha). Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince consent to gold, silver, and money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince accept gold, silver, and money.´

Then at that time Maniculaka the village headman was sitting present in that assembly and he spoke to that assembly saying:

`Good sirs, do not say that. Gold, silver, and money are not allowable for those monks who are sons of the Sakyan prince. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not consent to gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not accept gold, silver, and money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince have renounced gold and gems and are without money.´

But Maniculaka the village headman was unable to convince that assembly.

Then Maniculaka the village headman went to the Blessed One, and having approached the Blessed One bowed to him and sat down at one side. While sitting at one side Maniculaka the village headman said to the Blessed One:

`Venerable Sir, in the king´s palace the king´s retinue were assembled... (He repeated all that had been said above.)... But Venerable Sir, I was not able to convince that assembly.

`Venerable Sir, by thus explaining am I one who speaks what is said by the Blessed One or have I falsely misrepresented the Blessed One? Have I answered in accordance with this Teaching or would someone speaking in accordance with this Teaching find reason to blame me?´

(The Blessed One:) `Truly you, headman, by thus explaining are one who speaks what is said by me and did not falsely misrepresent me. You have answered in accordance with this Teaching and someone speaking in accordance with this Teaching would not find reason to blame you.

`For, headman, gold, silver, and money are not allowable for those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not consent to gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not accept gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince have renounced gold and gems and are without money.

`Headman, for whoever gold, silver, or money are allowable then for him the five types of sense pleasure are allowable. For whoever the five types of sense pleasure are allowable you can be certain, "He does not possess the nature of a monk, he does not possess the nature of a son of the Sakyan prince."

`Headman, really I say this, "By a monk who needs grass, grass can be searched for. For a monk who needs timber, timber can be searched for. For a monk who needs a cart, a cart can be searched for." But, headman, I also say, "In no way whatsoever can gold, silver, or money be accepted or searched for."´

[CymruAmByth]

Cut a long story short....

Went to a Benz dealership to perform some work.

Sat outside having a well-earned coffee.

Monk came up, asked me for a light for his cigarette, and told me he was waiting for ONE of his TWO Benz's to be fixed.

Go figure...

[jdinasia]

Clause --- again .. not common practice in Thailand. I tried to find the author's biography online and failed.

yes Cy, like has been said many times before. Some guys in robes are not living up to them (whether they are legitimately ordained or not)