How Easy Is It To Fire Me?

[ExpatTeacher]

Help guys, please.

I have worked at an entry level international school for two years. Today, my boss said something to the effect that they were thinking of not renewing my contract for next year. Thier main arguement is, I think, primarily due to the fact that I am not seen as team player; I don't enforce certain, non-academic, non-safety rules (and frankly neither does any one else around the school). So they could say I don't do exactly as I'm told. My kids do very well and, I suspect, I would be well supported by them if asked about my level of teaching.

I have heard employees have a lot of protection, and if my contract is indeed, not renewed, what are my legal options? Basically can I nail them for severence?

Hope you can help,

Anonymous and Uneasy

[sriracha john]

If they don't renew your contract, they don't renew your contract. I'm not aware of any recourse that forces them to renew a renewable contract.

Burundi International schools.... they are the new Thailand, perhaps there?

[Artisi]

I assume you are employed on 1 year contract like most foriegn teachers and guess what - a one year contract is exactly what it says - a contract for 1 year. This means you don't have to renew for any further period once it has expired and likewise the school doesn't have to offer you a renewal.

[haltes]

Actaully you are still entitled to severence pay even though you are on a one year contract as long as the position is not a temporary one.

[BigSnake]

Have a friendly chat with a local Thai Lawyer he/she might enlighten you a bit more.

[culicine]

Actaully you are still entitled to severence pay even though you are on a one year contract as long as the position is not a temporary one.

This is my understanding also. We had a teacher 'let go' recently, and they had to pay him out 3 months, not the one month they were intending on giving him.

Just phone the labour office (or get an 'on-side' Thai to do it), and explain your situation. If you have a case, the labour office should phone your school and clarify things. The labour office here is very pro worker, so if they can help you out they will.

No, they don't have to renew your contract, but might have to pay up for the priviledge:)

Let us know what happens. Private schools often tell us we are not protected under Labour Law, but it seems we are, after the few test cases that I am aware of.

[sriracha john]

Actaully you are still entitled to severence pay even though you are on a one year contract as long as the position is not a temporary one.

This is my understanding also. We had a teacher 'let go' recently, and they had to pay him out 3 months, not the one month they were intending on giving him.

Just phone the labour office (or get an 'on-side' Thai to do it), and explain your situation. If you have a case, the labour office should phone your school and clarify things. The labour office here is very pro worker, so if they can help you out they will.

No, they don't have to renew your contract, but might have to pay up for the priviledge:)

Let us know what happens. Private schools often tell us we are not protected under Labour Law, but it seems we are, after the few test cases that I am aware of.

The OP is not saying he's being "let go" early, only that they are chosing not to renew his contract when it comes up for renewal... for that he doesn't get severance pay... but they might provide a free iced tea if the last day is particularly hot.

[Thaiboxer]

If you're legally employed (visa and work permit), you have some recourse in certain situations. However, I believe that if the school doesn't renew your contract then that's it. Most contracts here aren't worth the paper they're written which doesn't help either. Some foreign teachers have been screwed by schools and have managed to get after them and even get compensation, but those cases are in the minority. Most schools here do as they please with teachers and could care less what you think as they always have a ready supply of people to take the job. Use this to your advantage and shop around for another place. Many schools are desperate these days and you might be able to squeeze more out of them than is currently of offer. Good luck!

[naka]

Have a friendly chat with a local Thai Lawyer he/she might enlighten you a bit more.

However, the 'friendly chat' will cost a month's salary

Naka.

[TerryLH]

"The OP is not saying he's being "let go" early, only that they are chosing not to renew his contract when it comes up for renewal... for that he doesn't get severance pay... but they might provide a free iced tea if the last day is particularly hot."

The Labor Act says otherwise. The advice to contact the Labor Office is good advice.

[twschw]

Could you post a link to the Labor Act? It would be very helpful to us teachers.

[Ijustwannateach]

Anyone who works past probation is entitled to severance based on time served if he is terminated FOR ANY REASON other than criminal activity, *documented* failure to perform (including service of spoken and written warnings), or breaking the contract (again requires documentation and warnings).

It basically amounts to a month of severance for every year served at the last paid rate.

The reason is simple and commonsense- if a company/organisation could avoid paying severance by giving someone a one-year contract - OR EVEN BY DECLARING THEM TEMPORARY!!! - everyone would be on those contracts and no one would have security, especially not Thais. Labour law specifically states that a worker is by definition NOT temporary if he has worked a certain period of time (I'm sure that over a year qualifies).

So yes, even if they terminate employment by "failure to renew," you're entitled to severance.

If they balk, a letter from the Ministry of Labour (who are usually very helpful) should clear their heads remarkably. Of course, you must have a real contract, work permit, tax number, etc., etc.- or else EVEN THOUGH you will still get the severance you may also be subject to penalties.

[Petch01]

Could you post a link to the Labor Act? It would be very helpful to us teachers.

Here it is.

http://aseanirnet.org/downloads/Labour%20P...0(Thailand).pdf

Chapter 11

Severance Pay

*********************************

Section 118. An Employer shall pay Severance Pay to an Employee who is

terminated as follows:

(1) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of one hundred and

twenty days but less than one year, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not

less than his or her last rate of Wages for thirty days, or of not less than his or her Wages

for the last thirty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis;

(2) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of one year but less

than three years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for ninety days, or of not less than his or her Wages for the last ninety

days for a Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis;

(3) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of three years but less

than six years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for one hundred and eighty days, or of not less than his or her Wages

for the last one hundred and eighty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece

rate basis;

(4) if the Employee has worked for a uninterrupted period of six years but less

than ten years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for two hundred and forty days, or of not less than his or her Wages for

the last two hundred and forty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate

basis; or

(5) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of ten years or more,

he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her last rate of Wages

for three hundred days, or of not less than his or her Wages for the last three hundred

days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis.

Termination of employment under this Section means any act where the

Employer refuses to allow a Employee to work without paying Wages on expiry of

Contract of Employment or any other cause, and includes where the Employee does not

work ad receives no Wages on the grounds that the Employer is unable to continue the

undertaking.

The provisions of paragraph one of this Section shall not apply to an Employee

whose employment is for a define period and the employment is terminated at the end of

that period.

Employment for a define period under paragraph three is allowed for employment

in a specific project which is not the normal business or trade of the Employer and

requires a definite date to commence and end the work, or for work which is occasional

with a definite ending or completion, or for work which is seasonal and the employment

is made during the season. Such work shall be completed within a period of not exceed

two years and the Employer shall make written contract with the Employee at the

beginning of the employment.

Petch01

Edited March 26, 2008 by Petch01

[twschw]

Chapter 11

Severance Pay

*********************************

Section 118. An Employer shall pay Severance Pay to an Employee who is terminated as follows:

(1) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of one hundred and

twenty days but less than one year, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not

less than his or her last rate of Wages for thirty days, or of not less than his or her Wages

for the last thirty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis;

"The provisions of paragraph one of this Section shall not apply to an Employee

whose employment is for a define period and the employment is terminated at the end of that period."

So I guess he is out of luck or am I misreading this?

[culicine]

"The provisions of paragraph one of this Section shall not apply to an Employee

whose employment is for a define period and the employment is terminated at the end of that period."

So I guess he is out of luck or am I misreading this?

Don't take the Law at face value. It also says somewhere that it doesn't apply to teachers in private schools. However, as I mentioned, the Labour department stepped in an helped out one of our teachers. Nothing can be lost by contacting the labour department and explaining your sitation. If there is nothing they can do they will tell you. If Laws were tight and bionding, and not open to interpretation) there would be no need for a labout court would there?

[haltes]

"The provisions of paragraph one of this Section shall not apply to an Employee

whose employment is for a define period and the employment is terminated at the end of that period."

This only applies to temporarary workers. You cannot cirumvent labour law in this way. If you are in a job that is permanent even though it is on a year by year basis based on an annual contract renewel, it doesn't matter you are still entitled to severence pay.

Thai schools (private or otherwise) are not exempt following the law although they might think they are.

[twschw]

So, even though my contract is only for one year and I have to sign a new contract each year, I am entitled to severence payment if I am not offered a new contract. Is this what people are saying? I hope this is true!

[ExpatTeacher]

Hey guys, I'm the guy who originally started this post, and have gotten so much good information in such a short amount of time, you're great.

It's going to take a little time cuz I'm not even sure right now that they're NOT renewing my contract, but I will for sure get back to you and let you know how it turned out.

You might be interested to know that ISB didn't renew contracts for about 17 people about 5 years ago now (RIF) and paid out A LOT of money in severence. I think that was a simple case of not renewing contracts, but they still paid- -so that's a good sign.

Any other examples you can think of??

keep it real

[haltes]

If you are a contractor on a daily rate that it would be hard to prove you are not temporary but if you are in a position for a period of time or you have been in a position that someone else has had before you or someone else will take over after you then that proves the position is not a temporary one.

If you have a contract, work permit, pay taxes, have worked for the minimum qualifying period then not extending your contract is the same as terminating you and you are entitled to severence pay.

If you're going to terminate somone (and that includes not extending a contract) you need to make sure that paper trail is there unless there is gross misconduct. The normal procedure should be:

Verbal warning (documented), written warning 1, written warning 2, gone!

Edited March 26, 2008 by haltes

[Ludacris]

You are definitely entitled to severance if your contract is not renewed, and it applies not only to teaching but other professions as well. Think about it, if it wasn't the case then every employee in Thailand would be on temporary contacts so all the employers could get around paying severance and they could fire anyone whenever they wanted without paying anything.

Teaching is not a temporary position no matter what your school says and having you on a one year renewable contract doesn't change that. There's been a few examples that I'm aware of in the short time I've been here where employers were taken to court and had to pay.

The short answer to your question - Your school can choose not to renew your contract but they will have to pay the appropriate severance.

[twschw]

Could someone explain what is meant by renew? My contract is for a defined period of time from Nov 1 to Sept 30. Is this normal for a contract? I wouldn't think I would be able to claim severence.

[samsara]

i very much doubt severance is for temp employees. pretty sure foreign teachers are classified as temps essentially, not permanent employees.

[culicine]

Could someone explain what is meant by renew? My contract is for a defined period of time from Nov 1 to Sept 30. Is this normal for a contract? I wouldn't think I would be able to claim severence.

As for severance, you are best to contact the labour department. Get a friendly Thai to do it for you. I'm sure if you are entitled to anything they will help you. Don;pt expect your school to obey or even know the law. If possible they will try to avoid paying anything. Generally schools don't like to deal with the labour department (a teacher at my school managed to get 3 months pay inctead of one when the LD stepped in). What have you got to lose? Give it a shot..

[TerryLH]

"i very much doubt severance is for temp employees. pretty sure foreign teachers are classified as temps essentially, not permanent employees."

Haltes had a good answer for this. It boils down to not what you or I think, but the intent of the Labor Act, and what is intended by it. It's intent is to protect employees from unscrupulous employers, (or something.)

Haltes replied:

...if you are in a position for a period of time or you have been in a position that someone else has had before you or someone else will take over after you then that proves the position is not a temporary one.

[JumboTrudgeon]

So what is the procedure for contacting the Department of Labour, should anyone wish to enquire about severance pay after losing their job?

Do you write to them? Ring them?

[TerryLH]

Go to the Labor Office and talk to them in person. Take along a copy of your contract for them to look at.

[JumboTrudgeon]

Go to the Labor Office and talk to them in person. Take along a copy of your contract for them to look at.

And where are they located? And do they have English speaking staff? Unfortunately, my Thai is very very minimal.

[DavieA]

If you're legally employed (visa and work permit), you have some recourse in certain situations. However, I believe that if the school doesn't renew your contract then that's it. Most contracts here aren't worth the paper they're written which doesn't help either. Some foreign teachers have been screwed by schools and have managed to get after them and even get compensation, but those cases are in the minority. Most schools here do as they please with teachers and could care less what you think as they always have a ready supply of people to take the job. Use this to your advantage and shop around for another place. Many schools are desperate these days and you might be able to squeeze more out of them than is currently of offer. Good luck!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Could you post a link to the Labor Act? It would be very helpful to us teachers.

Here it is.

http://aseanirnet.org/downloads/Labour%20P...0(Thailand).pdf

Chapter 11

Severance Pay

*********************************

Section 118. An Employer shall pay Severance Pay to an Employee who is

terminated as follows:

(1) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of one hundred and

twenty days but less than one year, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not

less than his or her last rate of Wages for thirty days, or of not less than his or her Wages

for the last thirty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis;

(2) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of one year but less

than three years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for ninety days, or of not less than his or her Wages for the last ninety

days for a Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis;

(3) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of three years but less

than six years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for one hundred and eighty days, or of not less than his or her Wages

for the last one hundred and eighty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece

rate basis;

(4) if the Employee has worked for a uninterrupted period of six years but less

than ten years, he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her

last rate of Wages for two hundred and forty days, or of not less than his or her Wages for

the last two hundred and forty days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate

basis; or

(5) if the Employee has worked for an uninterrupted period of ten years or more,

he or she shall be entitled to receive payment of not less than his or her last rate of Wages

for three hundred days, or of not less than his or her Wages for the last three hundred

days for an Employee who receives Wages on a piece rate basis.

Termination of employment under this Section means any act where the

Employer refuses to allow a Employee to work without paying Wages on expiry of

Contract of Employment or any other cause, and includes where the Employee does not

work ad receives no Wages on the grounds that the Employer is unable to continue the

undertaking.

The provisions of paragraph one of this Section shall not apply to an Employee

whose employment is for a define period and the employment is terminated at the end of

that period.

Employment for a define period under paragraph three is allowed for employment

in a specific project which is not the normal business or trade of the Employer and

requires a definite date to commence and end the work, or for work which is occasional

with a definite ending or completion, or for work which is seasonal and the employment

is made during the season. Such work shall be completed within a period of not exceed

two years and the Employer shall make written contract with the Employee at the

beginning of the employment.

Petch01

Laws in Thailand are like signs and traffic lights on the road.....Merely Christmas decorations! They put them up and down whenever it suits.....kekeke!

Any other examples you can think of??

keep it real

I know a school that sacked 3 teachers that had been there 2 years, and done a really good job at that! They were let go simply because the school wanted some fresh faces every couple of years. Thanks for coming......here's an iced tea!

[billd766]

I know nothing about teaching at all but I have been a contractor for many years.

As far as I know when you sign a contract it is for a specified period of time and as such it is subject to renewal by both parties and there is is usually a notice period on both sides as well.

Basically the employer ( a school in this case) offers a contract for a specified period and subject to an agreement by both parties it can and often is renewable.

However if one party or the other declines to renew then the contract has ended.

If in the OP case it was written into the contract that it WOULD be renewed automatically then there is probably a case for compensation, if not however and the contract is allowed to lapse then that is it. Game over, thank you very much and goodbye.

There is no obligation for the employer to renew any contract.

I know as I have been there.

My last contract was terminated as the employer got somebody cheaper.

[haltes]

We are getting into the diferences between contract law and Statute Law.

As the job of teacher is not temporary it does not matter as to what the contract says as a contract cannot take precedence over Statute or indeed over common law as the important thing is the intention behind the statute i.e. the labor Act which is there with the intention of protecting employees from employers who try to avoid paying severence or try to avoid the responsibilities of being an employer. Courts and judges normally take a dim view of companies or people trying to avoid their statutary responsibilities in such a cynical way and the interpretation of the statute is very clear as is the principle of legal precedence.

Being a contractor is a very different situation where you get no holiday pay, no sick pay, are on a daily rate etc. etc.

Sorry to say Bild766, the role of teacher is not a temporary one and if contested in court the teacher would probably win damages AND the severence pay they are claiming.