Farrang Born Here Has Thai On His Birth Certificate.

[choppychugger]

I am writing this on behalf of a friend. Basically he was born here in 1969 and stayed 'till he was 3 years old. On his birth cert it shows his Mum and Dad as non Thai, but states that he is in fact Thai?? He also got a British Cert at the same time.

He has resettled in Thailand now and wants to make this his home - would he be able to obtain a Thai passport?

Choppy

[samran]

Sounds like it.

I know another farang here who is in the same boat. Before a certain date in the 1970's or 1980's (I don't know when) anyone born on Thai soil was a Thai citizen regardless of the residency status of the parents.

He'll need to do this. He should get his name on a house registration (blue one) and get an Thai ID card. That will put him 'in the system'. He then should get a Thai passport issued (quite easy and straightforward as they use the information on the Tabieen baan database).

He should then leave Thailand on his foreign passport (by air) and then return using his Thai passport, where he will be granted unlimited entry.

[choppychugger]

Thank you Samran,

I will pass this info onto him.

[choppychugger]

If it worked out as you say, would he then be able to buy land as would a Thai national?

Choppy

[samran]

If it worked out as you say, would he then be able to buy land as would a Thai national?

Choppy

of course he would be. He'd be able to work here without a work permit, start a business etc etc, and own land in his own name ie, do everything on the same terms as a local.

The one issue he'd have to deal with at some point is that of military service. But it is NOT a big deal. Given that he is over 30, he is automatically exempted from military service, but it is handy to have the exemption certificate in the old filing cabinet if ever needed.

[jstumbo]

If it worked out as you say, would he then be able to buy land as would a Thai national?

Choppy

He is a Thai national. Just because he did not claim it or grow up here does not matter. He is a Thai national and would have the rights and responsiblities of any other Thai national.

[nam-thip]

A number of years ago I met a lady whose father worked for the British Embassy in Bangkok.

She told me she was born in Thailand then at the age of six months her parents moved back to the UK.

At 25 she decided she would come to Thailand and obtain a Thai ID for the purpose of seeking work.

Without to much trouble she got herself a Thai ID and was in demand with Dive companies on the island of Phuket who with having to employ a certain number of Thai staff could include her on the Thai staff employed list and as she was a qualified diver she was everything English but with the added bonus of a Thai ID.

And that’s when the problems started for the Dive Company that employed her.

It came about because she was employed as Thai staff with having the Thai ID but was paid a foreigners salary which did not go down very well with the other Thai’s employed by the company on Thai style wages. Some of them complained to the ministry of labour which in turn prompted a number of visits to the dive company checking documentation, books, accounts, taxes paid, foreign staff, work permits, etc, etc, etc.

In the end she became a hot potato and had to be laid off.

After that no company wanted to take her on worrying they would come under the close scrutiny of the ministry of labour and like her previous employer would be subjected to regular visits by labour board inspectors.

In the end she got that angry at what she considered out and out racism and jealousy she headed off to Australia to seek work and on her last day tore up her Thai ID vowing never to return.

In her case, being a foreigner with a Thai ID did her no favours on the work front.

[grtaylor]

A number of years ago I met a lady whose father worked for the British Embassy in Bangkok.

She told me she was born in Thailand then at the age of six months her parents moved back to the UK.

At 25 she decided she would come to Thailand and obtain a Thai ID for the purpose of seeking work.

Without to much trouble she got herself a Thai ID and was in demand with Dive companies on the island of Phuket who with having to employ a certain number of Thai staff could include her on the Thai staff employed list and as she was a qualified diver she was everything English but with the added bonus of a Thai ID.

And that’s when the problems started for the Dive Company that employed her.

It came about because she was employed as Thai staff with having the Thai ID but was paid a foreigners salary which did not go down very well with the other Thai’s employed by the company on Thai style wages. Some of them complained to the ministry of labour which in turn prompted a number of visits to the dive company checking documentation, books, accounts, taxes paid, foreign staff, work permits, etc, etc, etc.

In the end she became a hot potato and had to be laid off.

After that no company wanted to take her on worrying they would come under the close scrutiny of the ministry of labour and like her previous employer would be subjected to regular visits by labour board inspectors.

In the end she got that angry at what she considered out and out racism and jealousy she headed off to Australia to seek work and on her last day tore up her Thai ID vowing never to return.

In her case, being a foreigner with a Thai ID did her no favours on the work front.

Well, I guess that's the problem of it. One way of looking at it is, if she had Thai ID she shouldn't expect an expat package . . . . Perhaps she was wrong for expecting to be paid more.

For example, I've applied for Permanent Residency. Therefore, if I changed jobs here, I would not expect to get an expat package with airfares "home" etc., as by having PR I would be declaring that THIS is home. By being employed as a Thai, maybe she shouldn't expect any extra privileges.

G

[torrenova]

But you would expect to get the same total package and don't tell me that you'd chuck say 40% of your package away because you now considered Thailand your home ! That is nonsense.

PR is not a declaration of where your home is, it is just that you are, for the moment, a permanent resident of this country. You retain the right to be a permanent resident of your home country and if European, of any one of 25 countries.

So are you saying that when your PR is approved you will tell your bosss to put you on a local package ? Didn't think so.

[grtaylor]

But you would expect to get the same total package and don't tell me that you'd chuck say 40% of your package away because you now considered Thailand your home ! That is nonsense.

PR is not a declaration of where your home is, it is just that you are, for the moment, a permanent resident of this country. You retain the right to be a permanent resident of your home country and if European, of any one of 25 countries.

So are you saying that when your PR is approved you will tell your bosss to put you on a local package ? Didn't think so.

Well, I'm already on a local package, in terms of benefits - but not in terms of salary.

Perhaps using PR was a bad example.

[jstumbo]

Why should she be on a lower salary? Just because she is Thai? Many people that are Thai make many different salary levels. I would imagine a ethnically Thai person who was educated in the west, spoke flawless English, was westernized and lived a large part of their life in the west would probably received a higher salary than a ethnically Thai person who was educated in Thailand, never left Thailand, had very limited interaction with foreigners and spoke very broken English?

[samran]

while there are jealousy issues with the pay scale thing, it hasn't stopped me earning at least, if not more than what I could earn back in OZ...

[britmaveric]

Might be a statue of limits for this scenario??

[Iambabababor]

Even though he is now 39 years old he may come under the Thai Army conscription. Maybe he needs to investigate this possibility before becoming Thai

[RAZZELL]

A number of years ago I met a lady whose father worked for the British Embassy in Bangkok.

She told me she was born in Thailand then at the age of six months her parents moved back to the UK.

At 25 she decided she would come to Thailand and obtain a Thai ID for the purpose of seeking work.

Without to much trouble she got herself a Thai ID and was in demand with Dive companies on the island of Phuket who with having to employ a certain number of Thai staff could include her on the Thai staff employed list and as she was a qualified diver she was everything English but with the added bonus of a Thai ID.

And that’s when the problems started for the Dive Company that employed her.

It came about because she was employed as Thai staff with having the Thai ID but was paid a foreigners salary which did not go down very well with the other Thai’s employed by the company on Thai style wages. Some of them complained to the ministry of labour which in turn prompted a number of visits to the dive company checking documentation, books, accounts, taxes paid, foreign staff, work permits, etc, etc, etc.

In the end she became a hot potato and had to be laid off.

After that no company wanted to take her on worrying they would come under the close scrutiny of the ministry of labour and like her previous employer would be subjected to regular visits by labour board inspectors.

In the end she got that angry at what she considered out and out racism and jealousy she headed off to Australia to seek work and on her last day tore up her Thai ID vowing never to return.

In her case, being a foreigner with a Thai ID did her no favours on the work front.

If I remember rightly...children of diplomat's on a foreign post are not included. So she shouldn't have got the Thai passport or id anyway

RAZZ

[Arkady]

Amendments to the Nationality Act were brought in by the military dictators in 1973 to block children of the large numbers of Indochinese refugees on Thai soil then from getting Thai nationality. Any one born in Thailand before that is entitled to Thai citizenship. I know two people in this situation who have Thai nationality. One of them has been officially resident here all his life and claimed Thai nationality from birth. The other, a Swiss lady, was in the same situation as the OP's friend i.e. left the country with parents at a young age and didn't claim nationality as a child. She came back years later in an expat job and started the process of claiming Thai nationality. It took her two years and she encountered attempts from officials to stonewall her claiming that she was not entitled or she was too late and other nonsense. Nevertheless, she persevered and eventually got her Thai ID card and passport. Maybe she was unlucky with the stonewalling or was too aggressive as a farang female for their liking or something. The OP's friend should certainly claim his nationality, if he is living here or intends to spend a significant portion of the year here. Otherwise it will not be worth the trouble. As Samran says, getting exemption from military service is not going to be a huge problem for a 39 year old who has never had a Thai ID card before.

[misterman21]

If a dog is born in a stable then it is still a dog - not a horse!

[RAZZELL]

If a dog is born in a stable then it is still a dog - not a horse!

Very insightful

RAZZ

[choppychugger]

If a dog is born in a stable then it is still a dog - not a horse!

I was born in a hospital - Does that make me a doctor?

[Thai-Aust]

As Samran says, getting exemption from military service is not going to be a huge problem for a 39 year old who has never had a Thai ID card before.

That's not quite true. The cut-off age is 45. Anything below that will be subjected to enlisting regardless of whether or not he had a Thai ID card before. Plus he will have to explain why he did not report to the authority earlier for a military service. In his case, he can just say he becomes a Thai citizen very recently.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thai-Aust's duplicate post removed.

[samran]

As Samran says, getting exemption from military service is not going to be a huge problem for a 39 year old who has never had a Thai ID card before.

That's not quite true. The cut-off age is 45. Anything below that will be subjected to enlisting regardless of whether or not he had a Thai ID card before. Plus he will have to explain why he did not report to the authority earlier for a military service. In his case, he can just say he becomes a Thai citizen very recently.

Even though 45 is technically the cut off, all those who report after 30 are automatically exempted. The reason why 45 is an important number is because all Thai males up to 45 are technically non-active members of the Thai army, liable to be called up in times of national emergency, when the resouces of the existing army are not sufficient. This of course will never happen.

Futhermore, the non-active cohort are split into 4 levels of importance. Someone who reports after 30 is deemed to be the least important and are 'released' into the fourth, least important, group.

I went through this process a few years ago. Reporting after my 30th birthday. No big deal was made of it, there are a multitude of reasons why you don't report before 30. Living outside of Thailand being unable to report is a valid one.

There is a small fine to pay, ranging from 100 baht to 400 baht. I paid a 100 baht fine cause I volunteered myself, meaning 400 baht is what you pay if you are actually caught.

I've attached a copy of the covering letter which accompanied my miliatry exemption certificate. It clearly states the section of the relevant legislation which is used to exempt someone over 30 years of age (section 39 of the Military Service Act of 2497BE). I paid no under the table money, though my mother decided it would be a good idea to treat the officers to a nice lunch and some beers for their fridge so they could complete my paperwork in one afternoon.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...st&id=50475

In essense, the OP's friend should go for it. He's well in the clear and has nothing to worry about.

[distortedlink]

The problem is that if your friend applies for a Thai ID card or Thai passport claiming the right by having a Thai birth certificate, the officers concerned may not be fully conversant with the laws and procedures in these types of cases because I would guess that there are complications involved. Also the applicant could be imposed to take an exam, having to speak, write, read Thai fluently and other stringent tests in order to pass and receive Thai citizenship.

This is my advice, to your friend.

Contact his nearest home country embassy or consulate in Thailand, explain the situation and ask if they can recommend a reputable Thai lawyer, especially one that has specialist knowledge of these sort of cases.

Most foreign Embassies and consulates in Thailand have quality lawyers on their books, better than acquiring a lawyer at random or from a friend of a friend.

Plus attempting to have a go at it himself without knowledge of the system here, could end up by not achieving the desired result.

[farangmal]

But you would expect to get the same total package and don't tell me that you'd chuck say 40% of your package away because you now considered Thailand your home ! That is nonsense.

PR is not a declaration of where your home is, it is just that you are, for the moment, a permanent resident of this country. You retain the right to be a permanent resident of your home country and if European, of any one of 25 countries.

So are you saying that when your PR is approved you will tell your bosss to put you on a local package ? Didn't think so.

All those wannabee Thais that will never be

In theory he should be able to do anything that a Thai can do. But theory and practice don't make good bed mates.

I know a Thai Gentleman who lived in London since he was 15 years old. Grew up aquiring an English accent and even forgetting how to speak and write and read Thai.

At the age of 48 (two years ago) he sold up his Thai restaurant in London and moved to Jomtien, hoping to start a business and have a life.

He met a wall of stone, trying to buy boats and even a seaplane to set up a fishing business. The local Thai operators didn't consider Him a Thai and had him quickly removed from the area (at gunpoint from his hotel)

He's now back in London, he gave up.

Sounds good having all these property rights and stuff but will he ever be accepted if he tries to do something in Thailand, other than just spend his money?

[samran]

The problem is that if your friend applies for a Thai ID card or Thai passport claiming the right by having a Thai birth certificate, the officers concerned may not be fully conversant with the laws and procedures in these types of cases because I would guess that there are complications involved.

There are no complications involved. None, at all. All I had for the first 30 years of my life was a Thai birth certificate, and a Thai passport issued in Australia. Getting properly into the system came at age 30 (The ID, Tabieen baan, consctiption) I managed it, and so have quite a few others.

If he does have people questioning the authenticity, he can easily approach the ampur which issued the original birth certificate to vouch for it, or even better, go on the house registry in that area. It isn't rocket science.

Also the applicant could be imposed to take an exam, having to speak, write, read Thai fluently and other stringent tests in order to pass and receive Thai citizenship.

And the relevant legislation is? Or are you speaking from personal experience?

He is already a Thai citizen by law. He doesn't have to apply for citizenship. He has it. No where does it say that a Thai citizen needs to speak, read and write Thai fluently.

[distortedlink]

The problem is that if your friend applies for a Thai ID card or Thai passport claiming the right by having a Thai birth certificate, the officers concerned may not be fully conversant with the laws and procedures in these types of cases because I would guess that there are complications involved.

There are no complications involved. None, at all. All I had for the first 30 years of my life was a Thai birth certificate, and a Thai passport issued in Australia. Getting properly into the system came at age 30 (The ID, Tabieen baan, consctiption) I managed it, and so have quite a few others.

If he does have people questioning the authenticity, he can easily approach the ampur which issued the original birth certificate to vouch for it, or even better, go on the house registry in that area. It isn't rocket science.

Also the applicant could be imposed to take an exam, having to speak, write, read Thai fluently and other stringent tests in order to pass and receive Thai citizenship.

And the relevant legislation is? Or are you speaking from personal experience?

He is already a Thai citizen by law. He doesn't have to apply for citizenship. He has it. No where does it say that a Thai citizen needs to speak, read and write Thai fluently.

The points I made are clearly could or may, not absolutely, because everyones situations are different. Also in Thailand no one can be assured that they will be dealt with fairly as written down by the law. Rules can be malipulated here, in which I have personal experience of this.

Obtaining professional advice and being armed with some knowledge of the system here prior to applying for a Thai ID card, is common sense.

Of course in the end it`s all up to the OP in which way he deals with it.

[choppychugger]

Thanks for all your comments peeps.

I have passed on some of your useful info onto my friend - who is currently trying to get his Thai I.D card.

He is not all about the business ways so much, but more keen on not doing visa runs and being able to buy a plot of land and build a house here.

Choppy