What Is "thainess?"

[wangsuda]

On another thread here, there are a few comments to the effect that education given by foreign teachers will, somehow, make Thais lose their Thainess. The director of a government school school, in stating why he only wanted an MEP and not an EP, stated, ". . . we don't want to lose our own Thainess, our culture or our traditions. So we only use English for certain subjects." Article from whence this quote came OK, afraid to lose the "Thainess." So how do you do that? How do you lose Thainess?

My first thought was through complete eradication of a population. The Spanish tried that in central and South America approximately 500 years ago, and while the Spanish were largely successful, there are STILL remnants of Aztec, Incan, and Mayan populations and cultures in existence. Hitler tried to eradicate the Jews during WWII, and couldn't do it. Various European nations tried that in Africa (although I will admit that, while entire populations were not exterminated, assimilation did occur. I'll get to that).

If complete population eradication doesn't work, what about assimilation? Can a cultural or ethnic group simply be "swallowed up" by another population? The "great melting pot," America, has tried to do this with all immigrants and just the opposite has happened; immigrants cling to their ethnic and cultural heritage much the same way Jerry Lee Lewis clings to his female cousins. African nations, still reeling after European colonization, still manage to hold on to various aspects of their culture. Even India manages to blend Indian culture with English traditions. You don't hear India moaning about losing her "India-ness." In Thailand, the Chinese, through business ownership, political control, and intercultural marriages, have done more destruction of "Thainess" than any other cultural or ethnic group, but you don't hear the Thais complaining about that. In fact, it seems to be the opposite - Thai/Chinese people seem to be on the TOP of the food chain here. So how else can you lose something?

Thainess doesn't seem to be like personal possessions - it's not something that can be misplaced or stolen. History has shown that cultural and ethnic groups can survive DESPITE assimilation or eradication. So what are the Thais afraid of? That us white-skinned foreigners will wave a magic wand and everything Thai will disappear? How can that happen? English-speaking foreigners are less that one-sixth of Thailand's total population! By the numbers alone, losing Thainess due to the foreigners here seems impossible!

What this boils down to is three simple questions that can be answered by either the "old time" expats here, or any Thai readers on this board:

1. Define Thainess - what is it EXACTLY? And don't tell me it cannot be defined, as other cultures can be defined REGARDLESS of their population spread around the world.

2. How can you lose it?

3. Why are you so afraid of English-speaking foreigners taking it from you, when we are such a minority in your country?

Let's have some fun with this, shall we?

[PeaceBlondie]

This is posted in the Teaching Forum, and I mistakenly thought it was for non-teachers. However, we are asking TEACHERS only, to answer Wangsuda's questions, especially as it relates to the pitifully tiny number of Americans, Canadians, Singaporeans, Irishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen, and Sierra Leonians who teach all subjects in Thailand..

[wangsuda]

I'm hoping to get the teacher's perspective from this. Unlike the expat who is here on an expat's package, I think teachers in government and private schools would have unique insights to this. And I hope both foreign (I hate the work "farang." I am not a guava) and Thai teachers and people respond.

[Scott]

Unfortunately, I think 'Thainess' is an illusion which the gov't uses to promote it's sense of nationalism. There are some very broad and general traits that are common throughout much, but not all, of the kingdom.

I see the attempt at our school to promote all things Thai as being good and foreign things as being bad. Often the examples that are given to the students are valid, but the context is disturbing and feels xenophobic.

I think the country is faced with several problems. First much of it's culture and how it is implemented goes against standard norms for the rest of the world--at least as far as world organizations (UN, WHO, etc) and multinational businesses are concerned. Much of this is based in their system of Patronage. Since the gov't actually has a Ministry of Culture, they tend to see culture as being static where in reality it is fluid and constantly changing. They seem to think that a return of the good 'ol days, is somehow preferable to moving forward.

They have never quite been able to differentiate between an agrarian culture which is changing to a much more urban culture. Many of the problems facing the country have to do with increasing industrialization and urbanization, which changes the structure of the family. This impacts a culture and here that means impacting "Thainess."

[wangsuda]

Unfortunately, I think 'Thainess' is an illusion which the gov't uses to promote it's sense of nationalism. There are some very broad and general traits that are common throughout much, but not all, of the kingdom.

I see the attempt at our school to promote all things Thai as being good and foreign things as being bad. Often the examples that are given to the students are valid, but the context is disturbing and feels xenophobic.

I think the country is faced with several problems. First much of it's culture and how it is implemented goes against standard norms for the rest of the world--at least as far as world organizations (UN, WHO, etc) and multinational businesses are concerned. Much of this is based in their system of Patronage. Since the gov't actually has a Ministry of Culture, they tend to see culture as being static where in reality it is fluid and constantly changing. They seem to think that a return of the good 'ol days, is somehow preferable to moving forward.

They have never quite been able to differentiate between an agrarian culture which is changing to a much more urban culture. Many of the problems facing the country have to do with increasing industrialization and urbanization, which changes the structure of the family. This impacts a culture and here that means impacting "Thainess."

I do agree here. The rapid change between a water-based agricultural nation and today has really affected Thai culture. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, people don't recognize culture as fluid. But I think there is a difference between Thai culture and Thainess, just as there's a difference between American culture (yes, there is one) and Americanism. The Same can be said for England, Germany, and prety much every other nation. I just want to know what Thainess is. So far, no Thai has been able to tell me. Your explanation, Scott, is the best I have had so far. Thank you.

[Scott]

Thanks. I think the term "Thainess" refers to people who reflect the values held in esteem by the dominant culture. At work when we talk about someone who is very "Thai" we are usually referring to someone who is very polite, by Thai terms (and these usually transfer to a western sense of politeness as well); deference to those in authority, avoidance of conflict (often visibly seen as avoiding much eye contact), a certain physical distance--especially of the opposite sex and speech that can be viewed as being very polite. These people will listen quite politely until you are done speaking and then agree--or acknowledge what you said with 'Krap' or 'Kha'.

Basically, one of the key factors is one of avoidance of a lot of things. These folks tend not to put themselves in a situation where they might be seen as being 'impolite.'

By more western values these people may seem to be shy and maybe even slightly aloof or at least difficult to get to know. I work with a lady who is very, very Thai. She is one of the nicest people I've ever met, but I don't know her. She would never 'cut' in front of anyone, even students. She might reprimand them, but it is gently and quietly. She speaks English quite well and I can talk with her about her subject material, but I know nothing about her and she volunteers nothing. Her Thai counterparts don't know much about her either--she treats us all the same and the general feeling is that we would be intruding if we asked too many questions.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Spot on, Scott- I agree with your assessment of 'Thainess' as a tool for promoting a mythical monoculturalism, with its bias towards those already in power, an emphasis towards deference and unquestioning obedience, and towards an insipid and colourless "politeness" which reflects none of the vibrancy of real persons who live in various locations in Thailand.

The idea of 'Thailand' as a unified nation, of Thai nationalism itself, only really took hold with King Rama VI, as I understand it (can't find that history book just at this moment; when I do I'll put up a quotation). Therefore, 'Thainess' itself can hardly be older than the firm idea of Thai nationalism itself, which is certainly less than a century old.

History books aside, what would the rather large population of Isaan have to say about 'Thainess' (which is heavily biased towards rich central Thais)? What would the South say? The Sea Gypsies? Hill Tribes? Borderland residents in every direction? The nearly disenfranchised Muslim-settler descendants? I'd imagine a large proportion don't even speak Thai, as professional Thai teachers would reckon things, anyway.

It's very similar to (though as yet less successful than) 'Japaneseness,' which is a similar myth that Japan is a monocultural, monoethnic society whose roots certainly don't lie in Korea even though the earliest Japanese tombs are copies of the Korean ones from the same period, and that the Imperial family itself admits Korean roots (to the international press, anyway). Same deal- real Japanese language is the Tokyo variety (which is taught in schools) and real Japanese values are in alignment with the central government, Nanjing never happened, etc., etc.

My guess about why it's brought up frequently in relation to foreigners is that we inevitably disturb the hierarchical boundaries by being out of place in several directions at once- we're 'high' because we're teachers, and foreigners, and sometimes white persons, and yet we're 'low' because we're not rich, we're (often) not as old or experienced, and we're foreigners.

At the same time, when they'd like us to be 'high' (by making the students behave as subserviently as they, the Thai teachers, often do) we often prefer more egalitarian relationships. And when they'd like us to be 'low' (perhaps by obeying a school director's every little illogical request without thought or question) we can often be inconveniently nonconformist.

"S"

[PeaceBlondie]

I think we are seeing that, like language, the conflicts with Thainess are a matter of context. Farang teachers work inside the mist of the Thainess vortex, sucked into polite niceties among ajarns and directors and puu-yai, wearing proper clothes and ending sentences with krhap in the proper tone, playing minor roles in a psychodrama of a nearly-bygone age. We are unable to shout nasty epithets in a regional dialect of Thai at passers-by (as my boyfriend did yesterday at a man throwing water on us), muzzled in a bizarre scenario where we cannot tell the boss to <deleted> off, smiling as we eat the garbage they praise as fine food.....this sticky Thainess is very sticky.

[mopenyang]

Having lived and worked here several years, I have yet to encounter the level of "Thainess" some of the writers appear to have encountered given the angst expressed in what they have had to say. Entertaining for the moment the possibility that it is all so oppressive and overwhelming, I have to wonder why so many choose to continue to remain here living and working under such intolerable conditions?

On balance, boys and girls, it is not all that bad. Really, it isn't.

Some people here need to chill and enjoy life more.

[culicine]

I see the attempt at our school to promote all things Thai as being good and foreign things as being bad. ften the examples that are given to the students are valid, but the context is disturbing and feels xenophobic.

Ask them to remove the airconditioners, whiteboards and markers, computers, and any other technology from the classroom. It doesn't stop there. Mobile phones are also bad so much be removed from all teachers and students. Remove anything remotely falang from the school grounds and what do you have? ...not much will be left...

Obviously there are good and bad in both Thai and non-Thai cultures, and the idea would be to integrate the best of both worlds.

Where does education stand? Developing critical independednt thinkers rubs right against Thai culture? Should we just teach like Thais (and why is it Thais can use multiple choice questions, when we are discouraged from it?) What's going on here? If schools just want the to learn english, perhaps it's better to get well qualified Thai teachers to teach in english (and pay them accordingly)..

[Unfaithful]

If you could get onto the International School Circuit, even as a private tutor, you would avoid all this nonsense.We have other nonsenses, but they kind of make sense in an Aristotelian, logical way.I do not even try to tutor Thai students unless they have been in our system several years.Even teaching ESL to them is very hard, because their little minds are already Thainess-ized.

[barky]

The day will come (not in my life time) when Thainess will be a quaint, fond memory. As the world population grows, moves, evolves there will come a day when we will all be running around with microchips implanted at birth, No imternational borders to speak of, the majority of the inhabitants speaking a small fraction of the languages currently used, And the majority of the population sporting nice coffee colour skin.

Thailand in the scheme of things is a small player with an insulated citizenship squashed between ever hungry powerful neighbours.

Thainess will ultimately move to the endangered species list.

Forget it . Who cares, other than the Thais of course. In the long term it's of very little consequence.

[Scott]

Mopenyang: fortunately, a lot, maybe the majority, of Thai people don't act as Thai as the gov't thinks they should--thus you have the Ministry of Culture--which is a little like the Ministry of Vice and Virtue in Iran (or whatever it's called).

The problem for a lot of teachers is that we get confronted with the very conservative idea of what Thainess is and it's neither realistic nor constructive for a learning environoment. Outside of work (and to a lesser extend inside), most of my friends vary quite widely on their level of Thainess. For some their only claim to 'Thainess" is that they were born here, because they don't represent any of the behavior or beliefs it represents.

[mopenyang]

Mopenyang: fortunately, a lot, maybe the majority, of Thai people don't act as Thai as the gov't thinks they should--thus you have the Ministry of Culture--which is a little like the Ministry of Vice and Virtue in Iran (or whatever it's called).

The problem for a lot of teachers is that we get confronted with the very conservative idea of what Thainess is and it's neither realistic nor constructive for a learning environoment. Outside of work (and to a lesser extend inside), most of my friends vary quite widely on their level of Thainess. For some their only claim to 'Thainess" is that they were born here, because they don't represent any of the behavior or beliefs it represents.

That may or may not be. While I have many Thai friends, I don't remember it ever coming up in a conversation.

Whatever the case, my experience has been that it has had little or no impact on how I have gone about my life and work here for several years.

I am genuinely surprised at how emotional some of our contributors here are regarding the subject.

Sabai, Sabai.

[wangsuda]

We still don't know what this "Thainess" is that Thai people are pushing. I really want to know. Now, if someone asked me what "American-ness" is, or about being an American, or about American culture, I could answer him/her. In the many times I've asked Thais about Thainess and Thai culture, I rarely get an answer that makes sense. How can people claim to have something when they don't know what it is?

[wangsuda]

Ask them to remove the airconditioners, whiteboards and markers, computers, and any other technology from the classroom. It doesn't stop there. Mobile phones are also bad so much be removed from all teachers and students. Remove anything remotely falang from the school grounds and what do you have? ...not much will be left...

I love this, and have often thought of this myself. If all the evil foreign ideas were washed out of Thailand, Thailand would probably be back in the bronze age. Now this is not a bad thing, as it seems the early Thai kingdoms knew who they were. They defined themselves. And as they moved forward, there was a careful blending of western technology into Thai society, and Thais still knew who they were, and there was no fear of a thing called "Thainess" being lost. In this modern era, all that has changed.

[PeaceBlondie]

Ask them to remove the airconditioners, whiteboards and markers, computers, and any other technology from the classroom. It doesn't stop there. Mobile phones are also bad so much be removed from all teachers and students. Remove anything remotely falang from the school grounds and what do you have? ...not much will be left...

I love this, and have often thought of this myself. If all the evil foreign ideas were washed out of Thailand, Thailand would probably be back in the bronze age. Now this is not a bad thing, as it seems the early Thai kingdoms knew who they were. They defined themselves. And as they moved forward, there was a careful blending of western technology into Thai society, and Thais still knew who they were, and there was no fear of a thing called "Thainess" being lost. In this modern era, all that has changed.

Without wishing to be negative about the Thai people and their history, this illustrates that we search hard and long to find something of importance - an invention, philosophy, discovery, commercial method - that originated in Thailand. It appears they have been borrowing from other countries for all their history. So maybe Thainess is old-fashioned farang-ness, or Chinese-ness, or Burmese-ness. What is it, anyway? The Lanna clothing that they wear on Fridays up north (but not Hill Tribe costume)? The wai (similar to bows, curtsies, etc.)? The inscrutable Thai language and alphabet, which resemble neighboring countries? Size, climate, lack of full industrialization, the no-fail system, democratic monarchy, the rampant cheating, bribes and plagiarism? No, even the combination of those cultural elements is not unique, and can often be found as nearby as Cambodia.

///Added: perhaps we are beating a phantom horse. Maybe Thainess does not exist, except as a myth.

[Scott]

I don't think the question is answerable to anyone's satisfaction. "Thainess" is an abstraction and will vary from region to region, group to group, and probably from family to family.

I certainly can't answer what a 'American-ism' is because it varies greatly from area to area. I've lived worked in a lot of countries and can't really answer for them. There are some commonalities, but even these generalizations are invariably false on an individual basis.

In schools, this "Thainess" is expressed as an abstraction in which if you reject foreign ideas, behavior and dress, you will somehow be left with something which is pure and very 'Thai'. Unfortunately, this isn't true--you are left with human behavior, and that can be quite crude.

We all live in a society of one form or another with sub-groups. The dominant society (in this case the gov't) sets certain rules and laws. The sub-group sets how these are implemented. The further a group is from the dominant society, the greater the difference--and sometimes the conflict. In some cases, the sub-group may openly reject the rules and laws of the dominant culture.

Best of luck in getting a satisfactory definition.

[wangsuda]

I don't think the question is answerable to anyone's satisfaction. (edited by me)Best of luck in getting a satisfactory definition.

Thank you. I don't think I will ever get an answer. Perhaps I should contact the Ministry of Culture? I wonder if even they know . . .

[aussiestyle1983]

Thai's will never lose their 'Thainess', however, I think this term was used wrongly. I think the concern was more in regards to the ammount of Thainess that influences the Thais and is present. For Thais to lose Thainess, they would have to lose stupidness, and frankly, I can't see that ever happening. Anyway, the greater the influence of Thainess on the Thai education system, the better for us; by only having MEPs' and not full EPs', their English will never be as good as it could be and we will have more of a chance of having jobs.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thai's will never lose their 'Thainess', however, I think this term was used wrongly. I think the concern was more in regards to the ammount of Thainess that influences the Thais and is present. For Thais to lose Thainess, they would have to lose stupidness, and frankly, I can't see that ever happening. Anyway, the greater the influence of Thainess on the Thai education system, the better for us; by only having MEPs' and not full EPs', their English will never be as good as it could be and we will have more of a chance of having jobs.

Thais are not stupid, in the sense of low intelligence. But many of their leaders act short-sightedly and foolishly, in being able to do what is right, and that is cultural. Anyway, I don't see any long-term chances that the EFL business will improve for native speakers. Full EP's are just large MEP's, and Filipinos and Czechs can teach science, math, English, about the same as Thais can. In fact, while decently trained and qualified native speakers cost almost as much as a tenured middle-aged typical Thai English teacher, they can get a Filipino for less than half that price (if you consider benefits such as pension). Wow, what a bargain! Lousy grammar, poor speech, rote methods, slavish employees, for half the price of a Thai ajarn.

[aussiestyle1983]

Lucky for us western, native English speaking farangs that the Thainess in Thais wants to see white meat teaching little somchai. If they weren't stupid and realised that we are not necessarily the best teachers and that many other colours and races can do just a good a job as us and better in many cases, maybe we would all be out of jobs because like you hinted at, we do cost more. That is another part of the stupidity of Thainess that keeps jobs available for us, their illusion that in regards to teaching 'white is right!".

[mijan24]

Thainess has all but disappeared from Thailand (in the cities that is) as the ness has disappeared in most other countries(read cities) per se.

I think it is fair to say it (ness) has not and probably will not disappear from rural/country environments here, nor in other countries either.

To define Thainess or ness of any country is very difficult but not impossible - probably easier to capture it by looking at situations or examples.

Several years back - home in OZ my Thai wife would cook our meal and then make a non-thai version for my mum ensuring she made enough so as to be able to pop next door & over the road with these little plates of tucker for 3 or 4 of mum's friends,

That to me enscapulates ness in its most rudimentry form.

PS: The other older ladies in the street thought they had stepped back 30 or so years by this simple gesture called,

NESS.

Now I will hand the topic back to you "T" types and wait for the bombardment for being so crass as to offer comment on a topic intended for Acadamia Only.

[Scott]

Mijan, what you have described is kindness and consideration, not Thainess. I have relatives in Western Countries that routinely do that sort of thing and they've never set foot in Thailand and haven't met a Thai person.

[Ijustwannateach]

Lucky for us western, native English speaking farangs that the Thainess in Thais wants to see white meat teaching little somchai. If they weren't stupid and realised that we are not necessarily the best teachers and that many other colours and races can do just a good a job as us and better in many cases, maybe we would all be out of jobs because like you hinted at, we do cost more. That is another part of the stupidity of Thainess that keeps jobs available for us, their illusion that in regards to teaching 'white is right!".

A nice devil's advocation, Aussiestyle, but you and I both know it's not universally true...

"Thainess" as I've encountered it comes from government announcements, the Ministry of Culture and high muckety-mucks in the school system. That's why it's such a farce. Generally speaking, the more contact you have with such types, the more you will hear about Thainess. Students generally roll their eyes and run away. The rest of us laugh behind our backs (but smile, of course). Naturally it doesn't play a great role in the real life of Thailand- that's the point- only in the imagination of certain, um, idealistic types.

Some foreigners get sucked in by it, though- try to be "more Thainessy than Thai." It is usually quite entertaining.

"S"

[howtoescape]

We are now getting doctored into Britishness and Englishness by the powers that be at the moment, so it isnt a Thai phenomenon

I have lived in England for 33 years and dont actually know what Britishness and Englishness are, so i presume any 33yo Thai probably doesnt know or even care about Thainess.

PS Up until 1991 i never even had a culture, now 17 years later i have over 24 different cultural identities in my life and i didnt even have to do anything different to become so cultured.

Governments i sh7t em!