My Ex (or Not)

[Ijustwannateach]

Boo and Kat, both your comments are welcome and topical! Though since I *am* giving the guy another chance, I'm a bit afraid considering Boo's advice! However, perhaps things will work out- and if not, I *will* move on!

Personally, I'd be happy to see a happy thread! How about "Thai Men I Have Happily Dated For More Than One Year With No More Than Minor Problems - Case Studies." Seriously! I'd love to hear about all these uncomplicated romances here!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread got hijacked multiple times but led to some interesting discussions. I now have a bit more time to get back into it.

Let's see- where did I leave off?

O. survived a move with me, but 3 months after my ultimatum (this would be May of last year) he still showed no sign of getting a real job. He would hem and haw and mentioned that he was "taking care of his professor's dog," which really didn't sit up there on the top shelf of "Lame Excuses I Have Believed."

I was away for awhile on business. When I returned, O. was still the same. No money, but living expensively- how was he doing it?

In a taxi one afternoon I looked through his wallet out of curiosity, only to be surprised by the photo of another farang man- a bit older and larger than I am. O. blustered, then got defensive, then got angry. I refused to see him for a few days.

One day we went to check email together at an Internet cafe. I demanded to see his email suddenly. He seemed a bit apprehensive, for good reason: in his inbox was an email dated during my business trip:

"Dear O., I just wanted to thank you for a wonderful evening. I hope your hangover was not too bad. If you want to contact me after (date), please use (email address). Signed, (European Farang).

This also did not help. My suspicions were heightened to the point where I was looking for any way to get true information about O., so that I could make a well-justified decision about whether to stay with him or not. I knew that things were fishy as Heck, but I didn't like the thought of leaving him for the sake of suspicion only. And boy, did I get my chance.

It bears mentioning that all during this dodgy period, O. had been hinting that he would like me to help him financially (I had not been doing so) because if he ran out of money he might have to go back to Isaan. I kept asking when he was going to get a job.

Near the beginning of the new school year, O. claimed to have less than 5000B left to his name. It also happened that O. contracted a throat infection- a very, very bad throat infection. I nursed him for a day or two, and the infection got worse. I realized he really needed to see a doctor, but being a stubborn country lad he refused to go. Finally, after about 5 days of fevers and grouchiness, he admitted he was really sick. Just going to the road to catch a taxi for the hospital he threw up from the pain. I was exhausted from staying up looking after him and frightened about how sick he was, but glad to see him on the way to real medical care.

At that time, I had just gone through a very expensive month- I had moved and paid a big deposit on a new apartment, along with some other expenses- and my cash was low (actually, I probably only had 5-6000B in the bank, which I needed to last 8-9 days until the next payday). It occurred to me I would have to pay for O.'s hospital bills, and that I might even have to borrow money if he needed to stay for very long.

The hospital checked him in efficiently and quickly, and I was off to work. I called O.'s mobile a few times during the day but he didn't answer; probably he was asleep or heavily drugged.

When I returned home, I noticed the familiar bulge of O.'s wallet lying on his last pair of jeans on the floor- he hadn't used it or needed it since I had been taking care of him in his illness. Driven by some devil or angel, I opened it and found:

1. Pictures of 3 foreign men, including the one which I had previously seen.

2. Debit card receipts from the previous week in bars and restaurants totalling over 5000B in food and drink.

3. Records of appointments at a very expensive skincare spa

4. Phone numbers in other men's handwriting, including brief messages like "back on 3/5/05"

5. An ATM receipt from his bank account showing an outstanding balance of over 70,000B

"Steven"

[jerry921]

Well sorry to read that, ijwt. You wondered in a recent post how you'd feel if his rich daddy required his company on a night when you wanted to be with him. But you also wrote earlier about spending valentines evening home alone. So I think you wrote the answer before the question, and you know how it feels. If you want an exclusive monogamous relationship, I think you're going to have to look again.

On the plus side, he must genuinely like you and enjoy being with you. Sounds like you have fun together both in and out of bed, and he's not putting a lot of demands on you. So as an alternative to dumping him, you might decide to just accept him as he is, including accepting that you're not his only sex partner and that he's not going to be there when you need him most.

Otherwise its a good time to explain you don't want to be his "farang noi" and move on.

[AsiaWolfie]

wow thats really an impressive though scary and tragical story....as u seem to be a longterm-resident at LOS, I wonder how you did not find out about all that earlier....the "love makes blind" syndrom ? well, I am a newcomer to Thailand, actually never expected to end up here, but in a way I knew what I would have to expect with the Thai guys......I have a lot of experience with Malaysian (Malay, Chinese, Dayak....allkinds of them) and Indonesian men, and they are so damned different from the THAI......actually, even I live here now, I dont think I will end up in a longterm-relationship with a Thai guy.....rather find some good ONS in the chatroom......unless I find the " 1 out of thousand " - pearl......but...*sigh*.....yes they are handsome.....

but please continue to tell us about your experiences, its really interesting and helpful to others....even not so nice for you of course......

[sawatdee29]

The hospital checked him in efficiently and quickly, and I was off to work. I called O.'s mobile a few times during the day but he didn't answer; probably he was asleep or heavily drugged.

How is his health?

Did the doctors find out what was wrong ?

Is he going to be ok?

[Ijustwannateach]

Just to make sure everyone's on the same page- I'm relating a story from the past to the present- we're now up to last year at the end of May. So he's fine now, Sawatdee- turned out to be tonsillitis- took a 2 week hospital stay and over 20,000B to get him healthy again.

Jerry- that's sort of how things turned out, eventually, as you'll see.

Asiawolfie- I'm long time in Asia, but only a few years in Thailand. Anyway, I knew something was wrong with O. for a long time, and hinted as subtlely as I could to him that I knew this (and gave him unthreatening opportunities to talk about things).

That was what really clinched my next decision. After all, it wasn't as if O. had told me out of guilt or at my invitation that he was up to no good. After being with him for 6 months, it was apparent to me that he had never planned to come clean or to reform his way of doing things, and it was my choice either to accept it or not.

I spent a rather sleepless night, a lot of it on the phone with a certain Nonviolent Light-haired friend talking over what I had discovered. It was pretty clear to me that I couldn't stay with O. anymore, and considering the way he had been manipulating me regarding money, I didn't feel I had any more obligations in that sense either. It was possible that he hadn't meant initially to bilk my money, but because he had no way to explain having any more money, he had to pretend to need it- but it was still unnacceptable deception (not to mention the fairly obvious cheating).

The next afternoon I came home after work and packed up all of O.'s things. I went to the hospital. He was sitting up in bed looking very bored and tired, but better than the previous morning. When he saw me, his face lit up and beamed.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Ok.. I'm confused.. when was this last hospital visit of yours.. how long ago...?

And the suspense is KILLING me.. btw!!

ChrisP

[sawatdee29]

Ok.. I'm confused.. when was this last hospital visit of yours.. how long ago...?

And the suspense is KILLING me.. btw!!

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If i am correct, the hospital visit was May 2004 , so we have a year of reading to do.. I think we will just have to be patient.

please, would some tell me what farang is ?

thank you

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, Sawatdee, that's right- we're up to May 2004 (the time of the hospital incident). Though I'm really going over major transitions, and there aren't too many of those left.

A few of my friends had asked me to consider waiting until after O. had recovered to confront him, but I just couldn't smile at him or hug him or feel or act the same way about him at all anymore. He would know immediately something was wrong, and so I thought I should go ahead and get it over with.

O: Hi, cutie, I missed you. None of my friends came to see me here. I'm bored.

Me[shaking hands and giving O a chilly hug]: Hi, O. I brought your things.

O: Thanks. Are you staying here tonight [on the couch]?

Me: No, sorry. Actually, we have a little problem. Make that a big problem.

O: What?

Me: I think you know what it is, and I've asked you many times to talk with me about it. But I looked in your wallet and now I know you've lied to me so much for so long. It makes me sick. We can't be together any more. All your clothes and things are in this bag. If I forgot something I can bring it to you some other time, but except for that I don't want to see you again for a long time.

O[looking panicked and surprised]: What? What did you find? Let me explain...

Me: I don't want to hear you explain. You have had plenty of time already to explain. And you have lied so much that I have no reason to believe anything you tell me, anyway.

O[beginning to cry, motioning to a surprised nurse to remove his IV]: I don't want to stay here anymore.

Me: That's up to you, but I really think you should. I know you have the money to pay for it and you're very sick.

O[crying]: This is why I hate to date farang....

Me: I think I'd better go now. I hope you will get well soon. Goodbye.

[Ijustwannateach]

Um, Sawatdee, how is it that you know the word sawatdee but not farang? Farang pretty much means "white foreigner."

"Steven"

[DJ Pat]

You'd give Jackie Collins a good run for her money Steven.

[sawatdee29]

Um, Sawatdee, how is it that you know the word sawatdee but not farang?  Farang pretty much means "white foreigner."

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks "Steven" for the Farang info.

and as for sawatdee, I am learning.

[peter991]

Steven: I have been following your saga with O with interest. You seem like a very patient, forgiving and understand guy to put with so much from O. In July last year I met my Thai bf at a Pattaya bar.

We had a couple of verbal fights to start with, then he took me to visit his parents in a remote Issan village. My acceptance by his family (and indeed the whole village) made for some long talks between us. Shortly afterwards he stopped working in the bar.

I told him that I wanted to accept him as an equal. To do that we promised to always be truthful to each other and to to keep open lines of communication. Sometimes he tells me things I don't really want to hear, but I would rather he do that rather than try to hide bad news from me.

Last night was a classic example. He is unable to find work in his village and because of his small build is unable to find work in Bangkok. The mamasan of the bar in Pattaya he used to work at contacted him and offered him his job back. His parents didn't want him to return to Pattaya, preferring him to stay at home away from the influences of drugs and gambling that many of the bar boys seem to fall for.

I thanked him for being honest with me and asking my advice. I know how hard it is to have a long distance relationship - with me in Australia and him in Thailand. There was much soul-searching on both sides last night. I told him that I did not want him to return to the bar scene, but I would leave the final decision to him.

He rang me at 4am to say that he is NOT going back to Pattaya. I am so proud of him. I don't suppose there is any government or NGO programme to assist former bar workers in Thailand. If anybody knows of any way to help, I would be pleased to know.

Peter

[PeaceBlondie]

Good luck, Steven. I know parts of 'the rest of the story,' but I still think you've learned a lot from this, and O. hasn't learned enough yet. You're a good science teacher.

[Krub]

Steven: I have been following your saga with O with interest. You seem like a very patient, forgiving and understand guy to put with so much from O. In July last year I met my Thai bf at a Pattaya bar.

We had a couple of verbal fights to start with, then he took me to visit his parents in a remote Issan village. My acceptance by his family (and indeed the whole village) made for some long talks between us. Shortly afterwards he stopped working in the bar.

I told him that I wanted to accept him as an equal. To do that we promised to always be truthful to each other and to to keep open lines of communication. Sometimes he tells me things I don't really want to hear, but I would rather he do that rather than try to hide bad news from me.

Last night was a classic example. He is unable to find work in his village and because of his small build is unable to find work in Bangkok. The mamasan of the bar in Pattaya he used to work at contacted him and offered him his job back. His parents didn't want him to return to Pattaya, preferring him to stay at home away from the influences of drugs and gambling that many of the bar boys seem to fall for.

I thanked him for being honest with me and asking my advice. I know how hard it is to have a long distance relationship - with me in Australia and him in Thailand. There was much soul-searching on both sides last night. I told him that I did not want him to return to the bar scene, but I would leave the final decision to him.

He rang me at 4am to say that he is NOT going back to Pattaya. I am so proud of him. I don't suppose there is any government or NGO programme to assist former bar workers in Thailand. If anybody knows of any way to help, I would be pleased to know.

Peter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best way to keep ex-bar scene boys and girls out of returning to it is to provide them with an alternative.

If the reasons for leaving the village is to earn a living and support the family by going to the bar jobs, a simple rpomise to not return and moral support only will not do the trick.

I think you must be 'fair' and find ways to help him support himself and his family in more ways than moral.

It took me the best part of 3 years to slowly but surely build a new taste for a 'normal' job with some school training and a start-up fund.

The result is great. back into the village community earning a smal but decent living providing needed servoces to the village community.

Good luck

[peter991]

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Krub. I will be back in Thailand in a couple of months and will see if we can start something to keep us both busy; something that will bring in a few baht to help us both and the village at the same time.

Peter

[Ijustwannateach]

Peter, I agree with Krub's advice. Especially after having had a taste of the 'easy' money in a bar, it's often too much to expect young people to go back to the slavery of farm work for a 100B/day pittance. And without skills, that might be all your friend's options, right there. I suggest you explore some alternatives, like schooling, with a small allowance to be sent to the parents (who may also have to be satisfied with a more modest lifestyle, if your guy has been very successful in the past). I'd suggest no more than 2-3KB a month for the family, which is all a normal working lad would normally bring home, and then 4K/month plus tuition costs for your guy. He'll have to find a shared room somewhere near his uni; that shouldn't be more than 1-1.5k.

If he hasn't even finished high school there are options open there, too. You'll be doing a good thing even if you and guy don't wind up together long term. Most Thai guys can wind up going in the right direction if you push long enough (at least I hope so).

"Steven"

[jerry921]

steven,

I would be behind the idea of schooling as an alternative to bar work, but I would have a couple reservations and questions about it, if I was the one doing the funding:

- Accepting the need to support both the bf and his family, at least a little bit, would you send the money to the bf to send to his family or directly to his family? What are the "face" implications in doing it one way vs the other?

- Would you expect an immediate, total and permanent break from bar work? What are the chances of that actually happening? I don't even know if some of the bar boys work only weekends, or if pretty much all mama-sans require all boys to be 6 or 7 nights or whatever.

- Would you, in such a situation (long distance support of student), take any steps to try to verify that all was as claimed? I.e. that classes were being attended, and the bar is not being attended? How far would you go along this line? Ask him to send you his report card? Hire a private detective? Just call and ask how's it going and turn up the gain on your B.S. detector?

- Just by the law of averages, some of the barboys are not going to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, so what if education really isn't a realistic option? I guess from what I read on the teaching forum a high school diploma is within reach (in terms of mental ability) for almost all Thais, so maybe the question is what if one's bf has a high school diploma but not the ability to make it through any further schooling?

- Can a hard working waiter or store clerk make enough to send money home (I mean realistically, not assuming he's going to live with 10 others in a 2 bedroom apt and stay home and watch TV 7 days a week and never have any fun at all)

The whole thing is so discouraging to me that I'm promising myself if I get to Thailand I'll just find a village and try to find a guy who hasn't been a bar-boy in the first place.

"How you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they've seen gay Paree?"

[PeaceBlondie]

I apologize for confusing long-distance with long-term.

jerry921 has pointed out the terrible barriers in a long distance, different-country, different-culture relationship.

I'm going to play a form of devil's advocate and point out that barboys are so numerous (perhaps most of all in Pattaya) that if you choose to rescue one of the first ones you come across (pun intended), you probably haven't even found the 'pick of the litter.' My friend Joe has decided that Sut is not the brightest or the most exciting; he's kind of empty-headed. Joe's been through about 50 other boys and finds they're almost all in an entirely separate category from the non-barboys. What I'm saying is that you don't have to feel you have an everlasting commitment to a barboy you see three times a year.

It's not as if gay non-barboys are scarce in Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

steven,

I would be behind the idea of schooling as an alternative to bar work, but I would have a couple reservations and questions about it, if I was the one doing the funding:

- Accepting the need to support both the bf and his family, at least a little bit, would you send the money to the bf to send to his family or directly to his family? What are the "face" implications in doing it one way vs the other?

I would send the school-support money to the school, directly, to the account of the student. I would sent the family-support money to the family, directly, to their home address or the nearest equivalent.

If your guy is a barboy, and you're helping him educate himself out of poverty and the bars, you're giving him all the face he needs. If you're concerned about whether your Thai guy will think you are suspicious- you needn't be. Thais are suspicious about each other. If he really resists or requires a reason, just tell him you can trust him but not his family/friends, because they'll take any money he's got if they can. If he can't accept this, then the deal's off.

- Would you expect an immediate, total and permanent break from bar work? What are the chances of that actually happening? I don't even know if some of the bar boys work only weekends, or if pretty much all mama-sans require all boys to be 6 or 7 nights or whatever.

If you're doing this for him, I'd certainly expect him to be studying and/or working at a real part-time job, and not in the bar. This is where your trust level/the guy's real motivation comes into play. Nobody can really answer this question for you.

I think you can't expect your guy to be monogamous- and if he really likes farang (some do) he may date a few guys on the scene while you're gone. I mean, get real- 20 something year olds!

- Would you, in such a situation (long distance support of student), take any steps to try to verify that all was as claimed? I.e. that classes were being attended, and the bar is not being attended? How far would you go along this line? Ask him to send you his report card? Hire a private detective? Just call and ask how's it going and turn up the gain on your B.S. detector?

I'd familiarize myself with the university credit system and set a minimum requirement for credits enrolled and credits passed per term, just like a grant or a scholarship. If he falls below that more than two terms in a row, the deal's off- he's supposed to WANT to be doing this, right?

Darn straight I'd get the report card! You're the sponsor, right?

I don't know if you could or if you'd want to double check his work habits- I guess you could hire a detective. But really, if you have to be doing that, is there really any point? As long as his grades stay up, he's accomplishing what you wanted him to do, right?

Again, I don't think there's any way to put conditions on his sexual behavior- whether as a barboy or privately- while you're out of the country. If this bothers you, then this kind of route is probably not for you.

- Just by the law of averages, some of the barboys are not going to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, so what if education really isn't a realistic option? I guess from what I read on the teaching forum a high school diploma is within reach (in terms of mental ability) for almost all Thais, so maybe the question is what if one's bf has a high school diploma but not the ability to make it through any further schooling?

If he continues to fail, despite your conditions, you have a few choices:

1. Discontinue and give up

2. Get him extra tutoring (which he must attend- they'll keep records to pay their teachers) to help him out

3. Find some sort of other job to support him in- but remember most Thai jobs are worth maybe 3-5K at best a month. They really need double that to have any real life, unless they're living in a large group- so even with the job you'll be subsidizing him.

- Can a hard working waiter or store clerk make enough to send money home (I mean realistically, not assuming he's going to live with 10 others in a 2 bedroom apt and stay home and watch TV 7 days a week and never have any fun at all)

Not really, without special skills. Standard unskilled service wage is 4-5K a month; sometimes sales commissions are included. Having a B.A. bumps the average up to 8K, which might be enough to send a few hundred home; having a B.A. and some useful skill like computers or REALLY good English could put you over the 10-12K mark at some places.

10-12K is a reasonable beginning office wage in Bangkok for skilled workers.

The whole thing is so discouraging to me that I'm promising myself if I get to Thailand I'll just find a village and try to find a guy who hasn't been a bar-boy in the first place.

"How you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they've seen gay Paree?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That won't solve your problems- it will only skip the stage where the guy becomes a barboy and gets spoiled. You could still spoil him all by yourself, and you will still have the family, the education level, the income, and the long term outlook to worry about.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

this wealth of experience is always amazing!

[Ijustwannateach]

Ah, my biggest fan is back, with all that he ever really has to say!

To get back on track in the thread for a moment...

For a few days I heard nothing. I had the support of a great group of friends and though work and home were empty-feeling, the impact of being single and alone again had not yet become clear.

About 3 nights later, I had a knock on my door. It was O., kneeling in front of my door and begging me to let him talk with him. He came in and asked me to please reconsider. I told him it was out of the question.

Me: "Are you still sick?"

O.: "A little bit, but I feel better." [as I found out later, he went back into the hospital after this meeting for another week or so].

Me: "I don't have much more to say to you, O. I'm not sure exactly where your money comes from, but I think when you have 100,000 or 200,000 you should take it home to your town and make some business with it. Otherwise you will manage to lose it all here in Bangkok sooner or later."

O.: "I know... I lied to you. I'm sorry. Can I please hug you?"

Me: "I don't know if this is a good idea..." [we shared an awkward hug; he held on very tight.]

O.: "I know you are very angry at me. Can I please call you sometimes?"

Me: "I think it's better if you send me email. I think we should try not to be in contact so much for awhile. Maybe someday when I have a new boyfriend we can be friends again and you can speak honestly with me again."

O.: "Ok..." [more hugging and O. started crying]. "Well, goodbye."

And that was that, so I thought.

"Steven"

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Most Thai guys can wind up going in the right direction if you push long enough (at least I hope so).

jinkies !

[sawatdee29]

To get back on track in the thread for a moment...

For a few days I heard nothing.  I had the support of a great group of friends and though work and home were empty-feeling, the impact of being single and alone again had not yet become clear.

About 3 nights later, I had a knock on my door.  It was O., kneeling in front of my door and begging me to let him talk with him.  He came in and asked me to please reconsider.  I told him it was out of the question.

Me:  "Are you still sick?"

O.:  "A little bit, but I feel better."  [as I found out later, he went back into the hospital after this meeting for another week or so].

Me:  "I don't have much more to say to you, O.  I'm not sure exactly where your money comes from, but I think when you have 100,000 or 200,000 you should take it home to your town and make some business with it.  Otherwise you will manage to lose it all here in Bangkok sooner or later."

O.:  "I know...  I lied to you.  I'm sorry.  Can I please hug you?"

Me:  "I don't know if this is a good idea..."  [we shared an awkward hug; he held on very tight.]

O.:  "I know you are very angry at me.  Can I please call you sometimes?"

Me:  "I think it's better if you send me email.  I think we should try not to be in contact so much for awhile.  Maybe someday when I have a new boyfriend we can be friends again and you can speak honestly with me again."

O.:  "Ok..."  [more hugging and O. started crying].  "Well, goodbye."

And that was that, so I thought.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can be tough , .. It seems to be the correct thing to do but difficult, I think.

How much did you care about him at this stage? It has only been a few days since you find out about the money?

Can I ask your age or age range ?

khorb koon

[ChrisP]

Stay tuned for "Thai Guy Drama Theatre.." Episode 23.

(Thanks Steven!)

ChrisP

[jdinasia]

I love threads like this. Does anyone actually READ them as anything but a sad reflection on the guy writing them?

1) If you talk ablout how dodgy your guy is ... or whether he's an ex or not ... then obviously he's not really BF material.

2) If you go through his wallet and e-mails then obviously you (besides not trusting him --- which should be the foundation for a relationship) have no ethical behavior in your past to pattern your current behavior from.

3) If you treat guys like they are going to cheat then they will (just opinion) but it makes sense

4) There are guys out here with relationships that have lasted over a year without these kinds of issues.

Yes I am IJWTT's biggest fan... he shows a great way NOT to live in Thailand (Or anywhere else for that matter)

Now ... my opinions about relationships in Thailand.

1) If you cannot speak to your guy in a meaningful way about subjects of the heart and finances then you are doomed from the beginning to having a sex-toy/patron relationship. What is "in it" for a guy that cannot hold meaningful conversations with his older BF? I mean even as inane as a conversation about the merits of a movie. When you are limited to his 600 words of English and your 30 words of Thai how long will that last?

2) If you are here very part-time and your partner is 1/2 your age (or even a larger difference) can you really expect monogamy?

3)If you meet a boy at a "bar" it is his job to make you feel special. It is his job to put you on a fishing-line and reel you in gradually (or quickly if you bite that hook hard) This is the same in whatever your country origin is. You probably would not date a hooker at home so why would you date one here?

4) There are great Thai guys out there that are not hookers or professional BF's. Just the chances of you meeting them on a 2 week vacation to Thailand are pretty well slim to none. Plus their interest in you will likely be as transitory as your stay in Thailand is.

5)There is a good chance that if you are a visitor to Thailand that this will be the first time someone as cute (hot etc etc etc) has paid this much attention to you in a long long time. Don't let this go to your head! Enjoy the attention but think with your brain (the one situated about a meter above the one you are thinking with when you are with the guy. If it is not a situation you would involve yourself in deeply at home then don't do it here.

There's only so much you can say about this type of subject. Be honest with yourself! Look at things as if the guy you are interested in lives near you in your country of origin.

Let a decent moral code be your guide in how to deal with other human beings. Snooping, prying,lieing,etc etc are not the way to do things and expect success in interpersonal relationships. Like was said above once ... if you have to do that then is it worth it?

[PeaceBlondie]

jdinasia, Steven's situation with O. was filled with inconsistencies and blank pages about O.'s past and present. Steven had good reason to suspect he was being seriously lied to. This was not a case of a big age difference, of a part-time farang, of an obvious Thai barboy, etc.

I was one who encouraged Steven to rustle through O.'s personal belongings after the apparent lies had gone on far too long, and the proof was in the pudding. Okay, I'm an old government tax auditor - not that I recommend the snooping so much, but I do like to see paper documents that verify the oral testimony (not including oral testimony such as, "You smoke good").

On a related topic - if you like to dance with the devil and pay very young looking Thais for a short time, there's nothing wrong with asking to see their Thai ID card and check the year of birth.This is no time to be playing with fire, such as year 2531.

Edited April 27, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

If you go through his wallet and e-mails then obviously you (besides not trusting him --- which should be the foundation for a relationship)

Yeah I thought that a few pages back. Kind of like reading another person's diary. Naughty really and if you do that you deserve to find something that breaks your heart.

[Steve2UK]

I love threads like this. Does anyone actually READ them as anything but a sad reflection on the guy writing them?

1) If you talk ablout how dodgy your guy is ... or whether he's an ex or not ... then obviously he's not really BF material.

2) If you go through his wallet and e-mails then obviously you (besides not trusting him --- which should be the foundation for a relationship) have no ethical behavior in your past to pattern your current behavior from.

3) If you treat guys like they are going to cheat then they will (just opinion) but it makes sense

4) There are guys out here with relationships that have lasted over a year without these kinds of issues.

Yes I am IJWTT's biggest fan... he shows a great way NOT to live in Thailand (Or anywhere else for that matter)

Now ... my opinions about relationships in Thailand.

1) If you cannot speak to your guy in a meaningful way about subjects of the heart and finances then you are doomed from the beginning to having a sex-toy/patron relationship. What is "in it" for a guy that cannot hold meaningful conversations with his older BF? I mean even as inane as a conversation about the merits of a movie. When you are limited to his 600 words of English and your 30 words of Thai how long will that last?

2) If you are here very part-time and your partner is 1/2 your age (or even a larger difference) can you really expect monogamy?

3)If you meet a boy at a "bar" it is his job to make you feel special. It is his job to put you on a fishing-line and reel you in gradually (or quickly if you bite that hook hard) This is the same in whatever your country origin is. You probably would not date a hooker at home so why would you date one here?

4) There are great Thai guys out there that are not hookers or professional BF's. Just the chances of you meeting them on a 2 week vacation to Thailand are pretty well slim to none. Plus their interest in you will likely be as transitory as your stay in Thailand is.

5)There is a good chance that if you are a visitor to Thailand that this will be the first time someone as cute (hot etc etc etc) has paid this much attention to you in a long long time. Don't let this go to your head! Enjoy the attention but think with your brain (the one situated about a meter above the one you are thinking with when you are with the guy. If it is not a situation you would involve yourself in deeply at home then don't do it here.

There's only so much you can say about this type of subject. Be honest with yourself! Look at things as if the guy you are interested in lives near you in your country of origin.

Let a decent moral code be your guide in how to deal with other human beings. Snooping, prying,lieing,etc etc are not the way to do things and expect success in interpersonal relationships. Like was said above once ... if you have to do that then is it worth it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some really telling observations here - should almost be mandatory reading for just about every straight/gay (& single?) visitor to LOS.

One comment about opinion #3 (about what a barboy is there to do). Doing the job (and it very much IS a job) does not exclude the possibilities that the boy also has a "good heart" and would like to find a Mr Right to settle down with. I see too many posts from farangs who seem able only to see things in black or white - their Thai partner must be either an angel or a devil. How many people do you know at home who are either?

So, just about any barboy is going to be a shade of grey. Given that, you have to consider a bunch of reality-distorting factors that even a near-angel barboy almost certainly brings to your relationship:

a] His TV/movie-based perceptions about the fabulously rich world you come from

b] The examples he sees with his own eyes of free-spending farangs in their new-found holiday paradise

c] The examples/stories he hears from more experienced co-workers - many of which will at least be angled towards "you can't trust what a farang says, you have to play the field to find a good one etc" - i.e. peer-pressure (leave alone the commercial expectations of his employer). Ask yourself what reason he can have to have any solid confidence in what you say about the long term - i.e. after this visit is over?

d] His new-found relative wealth - jaw-droppingly more than he knows from his home....... giving him access to goodies, ability to help his family etc etc

e] The sheer ego-boost of now having intimate contact with someone that he was brought up to regard as very high status (this means you - in case you didn't recognise the description)

I could go on - but you get the idea. It's one helluvalot for this (let's say) nice young guy to handle and, brought to your relationship, it all adds up to a mountain of potential misunderstandings for both to climb - or a minefield if you prefer that analogy. As jdinasia says, apply at least some of the above to someone in your own country and ask yourself how confident you now feel about your prospects together. It's not a perfect test (what is?), but it sure beats emerging from the arrivals hall and saying to yourself: "Here I am on Planet Thailand - none of what I know from home applies here".

I've done my share of enjoying good times with "hosts" on past visits and never saw it as any more than just that - a good time while it lasted. I always played fair with them and did my best to ensure that I also gave them as good a time as I could (good for my "I'm a nice guy" ego, sure). On one occasion, I got to know one host very well in the course of a week and we also became "friends" - doing many non-sex things together just like friends do; but neither of us kidded ourelves that it was ever going to be any more than that.

Now that I've decided to move permanently to Thailand later this year, I don't want to get into any of that again - not when there are so many attractive and relatively well-rounded and stable guys around who have nothing to do with the commercial scene. Even on that basis, there will certainly be many of the issues already mentioned (language, age/financial/cultural differences etc) for me and my potential Thai partner to deal with; do I really want to add even more to them?

IMHO, living there is one thing and visiting is very much another. If you're there for a visit (or even frequent visits), enjoy what's on offer from these pay-as-you-go places. Just don't kid yourself (or him) that it's easy or likely for it to be any more than just good times while they last; sadly, while not impossible, the odds of it being any more than that are stacked VERY heavily against both of you.

Having said all that, I know how difficult it is when you're smitten and I am close to going against my own advice. On my last (6-week) visit to LOS, I met a 29-year old guy who runs a gay-friendly bar in Chiang Mai (i.e. it's not a host place as such). We spent nearly all of those weeks together and have become very close (SMS every day since I left, frequent online and phone chats) and I'm going back for 3 weeks in June. Most people who know us already think of us as an "item" BUT we are both saying to ourselves and to each other: "Let's see how and where this goes - it feels like we could/would be very good together, but we don't know yet". To be honest, I think I'm probably moving faster and further in this relationship than he is - but we are both trying to be "grown-up" and realistic about it, treading carefully as it develops.

Which brings me to my last bit of advice (if anyone's still reading this). Along with trying to remember that LOS is not a totally different planet with fantasy ways of doing things that are nothing like you know from home - try to give it TIME. One way that LOS is very different from your home is that it's a sea with vastly more fish in it than you're used to. Try to take it easy and take your time before deciding that the first extra-friendly one you meet must be "the one".

Edited April 27, 2005 by Steve2UK

[jdinasia]

jdinasia, Steven's situation with O. was filled with inconsistencies and blank pages about O.'s past and present.  Steven had good reason to suspect he was being seriously lied to.  This was not a case of a big age difference, of a part-time farang, of an obvious Thai barboy, etc.

I was one who encouraged Steven to rustle through O.'s personal belongings after the apparent lies had gone on far too long, and the proof was in the pudding.  Okay, I'm an old government tax auditor - not that I recommend the snooping so much, but I do like to see paper documents that verify the oral testimony (not including oral testimony such as, "You smoke good").

On a related topic - if you like to dance with the devil and pay very young looking Thais for a short time, there's nothing wrong with asking to see their Thai ID card and check the year of birth.This is no time to be playing with fire, such as year 2531.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't trust someone enough that you invade their privacy then isn't it already finished? If you are being lied to you get out of the situation without resorting to immoral behavior on yuor own part. There is no way that I could hold my head up and say to someone "I didn't trust you so I inveaded your privacy and went through your belongings and look ... I was right!" The obvious failure of my own code of ethics would make anyone else's lies so minor in comparison that the shame alone would kill me.

And on the Auditor note. The people you were auditing knew it. Not the case of some man obviously lacking in both morals and intergrity (not to mention self-respect) to be going through people's belongings withouth their consent.

Edited April 27, 2005 by jdinasia