My Ex (or Not)

[WilliamIV]

I agree with ChrisP - "Steven" is being very brave indeed.

His frankness does make him open to snide remarks of course

- but come on - how many of us would be willing to bare their hearts in this way - even under a cloak of anonymity - albeit he is apparently known to some members...

It is illuminating, educative and entertaining

- I have learned several things from his experience.

Maybe a few more supporters could be "vocal" to balance the Critics ...

there are obviously numerous loyal followers of the Saga ...

Bill

[Ijustwannateach]

d. It's all the fault of that nefarious 'Steven.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definitely "D!"

[Ijustwannateach]

One small comment, some parts of the story do indicate a slight naivite' on the op's part....well i actually shared some of those views/opinions at an earlier age and a lower level of expirience of Asia....but now..well what can i say..life's made me a cynic..lol

Best of luck to you "Steven" and please keep posting the recent developments of your expirience... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, and yes, at points I have been quite naive, although I think ignorant of information is more the point than blindness to the possibilities... in some respects I probably am still, but this is one of those things you can't really check in yourself until later.

I have yet to decide if it is naivete in me or not- it is of course a species of optimism- that given choice, opportunity, and trust, persons can choose better ways of doing things. O. himself referred to his lifestyle and work before working at the music store as "bad" and "dark." I always knew he had been somewhat dodgy- and certainly after I broke up with him I had a pretty good idea of just how dodgy- and at least that part of my naivete was over then.

I'm sure most of my readers recognize that I hoped O. might change and was giving him another chance, which is a much different thing from being uninformed or a dupe. O. did make a go of it, after all, without even the benefit of knowing for sure if I would come back to him. If everyone were to regard us all with a cynical and jaded air, wouldn't the attitude itself go a long way towards preventing us from improving ourselves (and perhaps that is what keeps so many of us from attempting change, the resistance which others would present to the belief that we actually were changing or could change)?

One of the two most human attributes is, I think, our ability to make moral choices which define our character. Someone whose morality is conditioned by respectability and cushioned by middle-class comforts is not very morally interesting, making choices primarily out of habit and knee-jerk reaction. In a certain sense, they have not yet begun to be truly moral, in the sense that they do not make decisions and take responsibility for themselves on their own behalf, but rather are acting as automata pantomiming someone else's decisions.

While it was risking a lot, and ultimately failed, I think giving O. a nudge along a different path and waiting to see if he would take to it was worth the time, trouble, and even the heartbreak. He almost made it- maybe he will someday.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree with ChrisP - "Steven" is being very brave indeed.

His frankness does make him open to snide remarks of course

- but come on - how many of us would be willing to bare their hearts in this way - even under a cloak of anonymity - albeit he is apparently known to some members...

It is illuminating, educative and entertaining

- I have learned several things from his experience.

Maybe a few more supporters could be "vocal" to balance the Critics ...

there are obviously numerous loyal followers of the Saga ...

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks again, Bill... it is partly my hope that somehow others can benefit from this story at least a little without having to go through the whole process of a similar saga on their own- or at least with a more successful ending. It's always of interest to me when others post similar accounts of their own. There was another long-running one when I first started posting on the forum, but its author seems to have gone into hibernation now...

[toptuan]

We were good friends, physically compatible, enjoyed each other's company and spent a lot of time together.  My life in Thailand for at least the previous year had been largely spent in his company.  He truly cared for me and loved me, and seemed to prefer to spend most of his time with me whether or not I was helping support him. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's get crass for just a moment: Exactly how many baht per month is the above worth to you? Sincere question.

There was another thread in the forum about whether true love is based on mutual needs or not. It rings a bell when I read this ongoing saga.

[Ijustwannateach]

Despite attempts by sundry trolls to describe O. as a moneyboy, I repeat that in respect to me he was never that way. As I have already related, the most I was ever supporting him was in the neighborhood of 3000B/month, and that only during the short period he had an honest-to-goodness, verifiable job. There were a few thousand baht here and there on holiday presents, and I usually bought our movie tickets, but O. had very little financial impact on my life and I dare say that compared to what a normal "kept boy" makes (and what O. made in his 'life of crime' previously described), I had very little financial impact on *his* life- or if so, a negative one!

Part of my point here is that O.'s motivation in dating me (in case I had not made that clear enough yet) is *not* financial. In fact, I feel he only ever asked for money when:

a. he really needed it (as when he was really working), or

b. when if he didn't appear to need money it would have been suspicious.

I certainly don't think I could *buy* the kind of love and affection O. showed me for any amount of money, even if I would want to. Sex is almost an afterthought in this respect, as O. was more enthusiastic about it than I was (ah, youth)!

So I don't know who's ringing your bells, Toptuan, but this is not a thread about money in relationships and it will not become one.

"Steven"

[SDH]

Let's get crass for just a moment: Exactly how many baht per month is the above worth to you? Sincere question.

There was another thread in the forum about whether true love is based on mutual needs or not. It rings a bell when I read this ongoing saga.

So I don't know who's ringing your bells, Toptuan, but this is not a thread about money in relationships and it will not become one.

"Steven"

Steven,

I can assure you that "O" was not doing this for money!! I think he's in love with you but struggling to live in the BIG CITY with all its attractions. I'll explain, once you've had the life of easy money it's very very difficult to get a square job (music shop would qualify) and stick to it making peanuts compared to being a kept boy or gangster....After living the life of a peasant in the country, then having everything just the fact that he gave that all up for you would show his true colors! Yup he loves you.......

As for Toptuan (Mr. Sincere Question) I think he's missing the point of the whole saga....You don't think you can buy a persons heart or soul, nor do you want to! You wanted young "O" to be a better person from a moral stand point and it cost you dearly as you broke off what appeared to me to be a very passionate relationship to live life to your idealism.

So are you finished with him or not?????

[toptuan]

Trolls! Money boy! Whoa! Hold your horses! Calm down!

IJWT and SDH, you're jumping to conclusions WAY beyond my simple question. I read your whole story in detail, and O doesn't sound like a money boy to me either, by your descriptive and interesting account. I also believe you've got a genuine relationship going--money or no.

The "crass" in my question, exists because it does sound like I'm asking you about "buying" his affections. However, I'm just trying to ask, "What's in YOUR heart, IJWT, as you give him his regular allowance?" --because I think it helps balance the picture of what is going on here in the relationship.

Now that I've got your attention, let me elaborate...

Whether my b/f has a job or not, I love giving to him just because I believe real love wants to share the good things of life with someone who's dear to you. When I get paid at the end of the month, I think about his devotion to me, the companionship--all the things you mentioned (quoted in my previous reply)--and when I give him his 5K bath each month, I think "Wow, this is so small in comparison to what he gives back to me in our relationship--I wish I could give more." But then, his need to learn responsibility and self-support (I won't live forever), balances things out, and I remind him that my monthly sharing is only a small token of my love for him. Like you, I still want him to face life realistically, and know that money doesn't grow on trees (or all farangs, for that matter). A real balancing act.

Back to the "crass" question: Exactly how many baht is all "that" worth to me? More than I could ever pay. I dare say your feelings are the same, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

OK, are we back on track?

Edited January 1, 2006 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

SDH, I think you're right on the money, so to speak, and O. certainly is impressed by the attractions of the big city and easy money. In the end it may simply be a maturity problem. Or I may be too idealistic. Or the problem may be that we simply have different visions of how our lives will proceed- for him, the gangster/grey area is not as much of a problem as it is for me- partly because he doesn't see (or tries not to see) where it leads later. He'll either wind up in jail, a gangster, or a policeman- none of these are attractive to me in the long term, and our relationship is deep enough now that that's the only place it has to go.

The problem is partly this, but also one of trust. O. has only recently given up trying to fool me into thinking he is different from what he is- and I grant that I put a lot of pressure on him to change and to put up this kind of appearance. However, now that we are speaking more honestly, even though the long-term dedicated relationship is not on the table any more, there may be more on offer from both of us in terms of intimacy and friendship.

There's not much more of the saga to go in this stage, and so you'll have your answers to how things stand (as well as I understand it myself) fairly soon!

Toptuan,

Thanks for your further explanation. Sorry if I was overly touchy, but a recent troll calling O. a moneyboy is on the preceding page, and the intent of your mention of crass matters and money in regard to O. was not very clear.

If you are asking me what I would do to help O. if he were in genuine need, I suppose I would try as hard as I could- but my belief in his being in genuine need is what is in question. When he seems to have so many ready sources of mystery money, which remain unexplained, it's a little hard for me to swallow that I would be his source of help of last resort. In other words, I'm willing to help him as long as I'm not being a sucker by doing so, and he makes it impossible for me to judge this.

And the question you ask about what his friendship is worth is very hard to answer, and impossible in terms of financial value. However, I know I provide similar personal resources for him- so I don't regard the relationship as being beneficial solely to me in that respect. Our physical connection is also mutually rewarding.

In the end, it's a question of how much love and friendship can survive without trust. The answer, I am discovering, is not much. The irony is that trust may develop when the conditions for the original relationship are no longer even possible.

"Steven"

Edited January 1, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Steve2UK]

Whether my b/f has a job or not, I love giving to him just because I believe real love wants to share the good things of life with someone who's dear to you.  When I get paid at the end of the month, I think about his devotion to me, the companionship--all the things you mentioned (quoted in my previous reply)--and when I give him his 5K bath each month, I think "Wow, this is so small in comparison to what he gives back to me in our relationship--I wish I could give more."  But then, his need to learn responsibility and self-support (I won't live forever), balances things out, and I remind him that my monthly sharing is only a small token of my love for him.  Like you, I still want him to face life realistically, and know that money doesn't grow on trees (or all farangs, for that matter).  A real balancing act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely put and (IMO) true nam jai as well as very commonsensical..........

[elkangorito]

I lived in Thailand for 1 year. Now, I'm temporarily back in Australia to make some fast money, so as I can return to Thailand & start my business. I was an English, Mathematics & Physics teacher at a Thai government high school, where strangely, more boys were openly interested in me than girls. A strange yet typical phenomena.

When I first arrived in the LOS, I lived in Pattaya (yuk!). I didn't like it at all. I was continually being harrassed every time I stepped out of my door. I've never experienced such sexual openess before.

Anyway, I went to the Exxit Bar. I did happen to meet a nice young man who worked there. His name was Nut (I will not divulge his real name as there were a few "Nuts"). He & I became friends...so much so that he & I saw quite a lot of each other. Money was never, ever discussed.

Before I continue, I am the type of guy who speaks openly & does not worry about what others think. Normally, this leads to me being alienated by conservative types, for which I am generally thankful. I was this way with Nut. Disregarding my openess, he chose to stick with me. Again, there was NEVER the mention of money (I had none anyway, which is what I told him). We thoroughly enjoyed each others company. There was never any discussion of 'ownership' or what each of us did in our private time. Essentially, we had no expectations of each other. This is not how I found some of the comments in this topic to be. I found quite a lot of expectation from both parties. Don't ask me to give any quotes but when one person suspects another of not being truthful & then expects them to change, this usually leads to trouble. This is expectation in it's normal form. Most people tend to do it...gay or straight.

Anyway, my Nut came from where everybody who works in bars come from...Esaan. He was not physically gorgeous but his personality was something special. He was open, honest & always willing to help if he could. We did a lot together...mainly help each other get through every day with a minimum of fuss.

After 3 months of well earned rest from the insidious Australian (Sydney) engineering work regime, I felt compelled to occupy myself with something. Before I knew it, I had a job teaching in Klaeng (between Chantaburi & Rayong). I stayed in touch with Nut as much as I could while I was there. Then suddenly, a new school director arrived &, to avoid losing face, scrapped the perfectly good Bi-lingual School Program. This led to all three of us farangs leaving. The idiots at the school are still asking, "why"? (It's a long story).

Anyway, I almost immediately got a job in Bangkok at a Thai government school. It was the first time they had ever employed a farang. I still kept in touch with my Nut as much as possible but he became tired of waiting Finally, I was unable to contact him. His number was disconnected. This was not because of me but because he had decided, all by himself (with no influence from me), to leave his bar job. I knew it would be a big risk. Obviously, too big a risk. Maybe he is back with his family in Esaan? I don't know. But I did & still do love him. He was one of the nicest guys I have met. Now I can tell you his name...it is Sohmhy. I really miss his beautiful smile & gentle touch.

I have met a few boys in Thailand...some of whom have been easy to spot as money boys (whom I ignore) & some have been just wonderful people. I have experienced the lies & deceipt as others here have but I have not made the mistake of reacting to it as they have done. As a result, I have had nothing but generally great experiences.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we reap what we sow...even though we don't mean ourselves any harm.

[PeaceBlondie]

There are all kinds of human relationships. Straight, gay, bi, etc. With or without money. Same ages, different ages. Same or different races. Long term, short term. And so on.

Yeah, I met many more than 'my share' of barboys in two years in Chiang Mai. Now, after moving away when I come back to visit, I see many of them again. Even if I never avail myself of further services, I feel like they're old acquaintances, young friends, whatever. And now, they're known quanitities. This one is talkative and active, the other young man is more quiet. One is less insistent or demanding. It wasn't the best group to get to know, in some respects, but some of the old, fat, expats and drunks weren't half as good. Some expats I met on the forums turned out to be good men and friends (hey, I'm in town for three more days, guys!).

If only I could speak Thai, friendships would be easier to cultivate. You have to work at relationships to keep them alive and improve them. Steven tried hard to keep his relationship with O. Steven has been amused, no doubt, at my attempts to keep my relationship going with another "Nut." I never met O., but it's been interesting to hear the story.

[Ijustwannateach]

El K, I understand the general message you are trying to convey. However, as you said, there was no agreement or understanding between you and Nut. Therefore, there were no promises to be broken, trusts to be betrayed, or commitments to let down. I have had such non-committed attachments before, and of course they can be fun- what else could they be?

However, my relationship with O. was clearly a matter of some commitment, trust, and mutual agreement. When we were boyfriends, it was clearly understood that we would not date other people- at least, he made it pretty clear that would not be something acceptable for ME to do. When he told me something about his personal life or work, I expected it to be the truth no less than when I told O. I was a teacher. O. consistently avoided chances to tell me the truth even when I made it quite clear that the facts showed he was lying-not a matter of personal suspicion, but observable fact.

The problem in the relationship, in my view, was the lying and dishonesty- if these had not existed, the relationship itself would not have advanced to the point it did on false pretenses (I was certainly not looking for a jobless gangster with a girlfriend). It was not so much a case of me suspecting dishonesty from the beginning and trying to change someone from something I knew, as it was of behaving as though someone is as they represented themselves when in fact they are a sham and a liar and the truth later comes out despite their deceit.

It is part of my point that now the relationship cannot proceed (as a result of the dishonesty) that ironically O. and I are finally on a completely honest footing.

[toyicebear]

Nice one Steven,

This one is spot on...

However, my relationship with O. was clearly a matter of some commitment, trust, and mutual agreement. When we were boyfriends, it was clearly understood that we would not date other people- at least, he made it pretty clear that would not be something acceptable for ME to do.

From my observation and expirience..the comment relating to them wanting YOU to have only THEM while THEY can do what they WANT..is very universal trait disregarding your country of birth... LOL

[Ijustwannateach]

Getting back to the subject for a moment...

I *said* that I started dating other people during this last phase of my relationship with O. To be a bit more honest, I was simply half-heartedly screwing around, mostly with guys who were not too serious. A large part of me was still heavily invested in O. emotionally (and physically). Unconsciously, I think I was choosing guys that would be much less suitable partners than O. would ever be, to avoid actually detaching from him.

As a result, even for me, O. continued to *feel* like he was a boyfriend- something that I'm sure he intended me to feel- and although I knew the situation was not good I didn't have the willpower to resist and make a full break. It didn't help, of course, that O. was more or less living with me (5-6 nights a week) and had probably half his clothes plus loads of other gear in my room.

A few months back, O. started to make odd noises about the holidays. I was informed in advance that he would not be spending Christmas or New Year's with me- he said he was going back home to his village. Of course, I wasn't informed where he would get the money to do this, considering that he didn't actually seem to be working anywhere.

One day, I was informed by O. that he had an especially good but temporary working gig doing surveys quite far out- near Rangsit, which most of you probably know is near the airport. It was so far out, in fact, that he would be living there most of the week with a friend and co-worker. I was also informed, oddly, that at times his phone (the new 15K baht one, you understand) was not working well so I might have trouble contacting him. I didn't believe that for a second, but didn't consider it worth arguing about.

The week passed for me as usual- working and living- I called O. once or twice a day, and he called me, usually pretty late at night.

On the weekend, O. came back to see me in Bangkok. There were three wrong notes: first, he was extremely tanned. Second, he tried to keep me from seeing that he had a couple of thousand baht in his wallet. Third, he was reading a tourist book in Thai about Hong Kong Disneyland. I didn't say anything about any of these oddities.

The next day (Monday), I got a call from O. The background of the call was odd- it sounded like a transportation station, but not the BTS or the subway- it was oddly professional, and open, and vacant sounding.

"Hi, cutie."

"Hi, O."

"Cutie, my phone is not so good but I will try to call you. I just want to say... that I love cutie. You know that."

O. often told me that he loved me, but this kind of underlining was odd.

"I love you, too, O." At this point, an strangely mellow rising three-tone motif sang out in the background, wherever O. was, and a voice started to speak in English.

"Cutie, I have to go-" breathlessly shouted, and then the dial tone.

Of course I immediately called him back.

"O., where are you?"

"I'm in the BTS station!"

"That's not the BTS station."

"Sorry, I really have to go-"

Another dial tone, and this time the phone was turned off.

For the next week, whenever I called his phone acted oddly- his answering service, which normally kicked in after 4 rings, did not pick up. He seemed oddly in a hurry when I spoke with him. He said he was working quite hard and making a fair bit of money. Sometime about midweek, he called me quite late, but I was in the shower and couldn't answer the phone. When I checked my messages, imagine my surprise:

"You have 1 message. Press 1 to listen....beeep"

"[computerised voice] You have an incoming international call. Press 1 to take the call and accept charges. Press 2 to take the call and reverse charges. If you need to speak to an operator, press 0. [elevator-sounding hold music]"

I immediately sent him an SMS.

"You are a good liar, but not as good as you think. I know you are not in Thailand."

He returned with:

"I will talk to you about this when I am back in Bangkok."

I returned:

"If you are really in Thailand come to Bangkok and meet me tomorrow- I will pay whatever you are supposed to be getting at work. If you don't come, then please come and get all of your things as soon as possible. I don't want to be friends with such a liar."

Needless to say, he didn't meet me the next day.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

I think if there were some medical procedure in which his brain could be rewired so as to be genuinely remorseful, and realize he was out of order, and be aware not to do it again - and be able to say 'No' to temptation, and be compliant, - but not a doormat.

You'd take him back in a jiffy.

..then he wouldn't be so exciting and edgy and borderline, which even though its a pain sometimes does provide a driver to attraction.

Bottom line - You still like him. Ho Hum.

Though I initially pooh-poohed his statement, it's worth requoting the Moog at this point, especially as I myself recently implied something similar about intellectuals being attracted to problem people.

I must now admit that, although I don't self-consciously go looking for trouble of this sort, it's quite possible that unconsciously the people I am attracted to have an element of this "edginess." I'll even admit that the Moog is probably right: if O. had completely reformed himself, I might have lost interest.

It bears thinking about some more.

"Steven"

[Buki]

I enjoyed reading some of threads. and I have come to some short realization of the relationships that is happening here in LOS. This purely subjected. You may agree or disagree.

1. Older gay men are attracted to younger thais... may it be money boys (mostly are) or some other young lads that they meet on the streets, department stores, suanas, through a friend or anywhere else.

2. Money boys know how to play with your feelings, they know what you want to hear. Their game face includes a little sad story and little affection, which usually gets the trick for most gay men who are desperately looking for love in the wrong places. Some say its sincere, even another money boy would vouch that he is really true.

3. I have read so many profiles (70 to 80%) of young thai men saying they are looking for a foreigner for friendship or more, who can help them with their studies and bring them a good life. So a farang is their passport to poverty.

4. Why can' t older guys have relations with another older guy? Is it about the sex or the physical attraction? There can be sex.. I feel its more on companionship and love for each other which is more important when you go through the years. I have a boyfriend of 7 years, we are about of the same age. I don't mind getting old with him. Some relationships of older guy and younger one may work, but its just a small percentage. You can bring them home, marry them, give them citizenship.. then dumps you in the long process for the new found freedom.

5. Reality sucks and it hurts badly.

Seriously folks, I just hate when good guys get trapped in this kind of web. Nobody is to be blamed, since it was a personal choice for each. For whateve reasons why WE all go through this kind of situations, lets just hope that the next time something like this happens, we know what to do.

all my love to all gay men in thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

What you say about MB's is true as far as it goes, but this thread is not about an MB. I would also say that of those "students" you are referring to online, that many of them might also fall into a category that is not quite the MB zone- more sort of "kept" boys.

I would put the problem between O. and I more in terms of fidelity/honesty issues along with lifestyle choices. Both of us are/were very headstrong but at the same time very attracted to each other. The age difference is significant but not extreme, and while dating people more than 4-5 years different in age brings with it certain complications, it can also have advantages for both partners. There are many Thais who prefer to date older (sometimes *much* older) foreign men exclusively, and though they have the choice of younger Thais, or even younger foreigners, they don't.

My ex-, O., is very popular among Thais. He has bragged to me before that many of the very popular and attractive bar and restaurant staff at gay establishments in Bangkok have come on to him. But he's not interested- they're not, ahem, large enough to interest him, really. So there's someone for everyone. We don't get to choose who attracts us sexually, so that's lucky for all of us.

"Steven"

[Buki]

What you say about MB's is true as far as it goes, but this thread is not about an MB. I would also say that of those "students" you are referring to online, that many of them might also fall into a category that is not quite the MB zone- more sort of "kept" boys.

I would put the problem between O. and I more in terms of fidelity/honesty issues along with lifestyle choices. Both of us are/were very headstrong but at the same time very attracted to each other. The age difference is significant but not extreme, and while dating people more than 4-5 years different in age brings with it certain complications, it can also have advantages for both partners. There are many Thais who prefer to date older (sometimes *much* older) foreign men exclusively, and though they have the choice of younger Thais, or even younger foreigners, they don't.

My ex-, O., is very popular among Thais. He has bragged to me before that many of the very popular and attractive bar and restaurant staff at gay establishments in Bangkok have come on to him. But he's not interested- they're not, ahem, large enough to interest him, really. So there's someone for everyone. We don't get to choose who attracts us sexually, so that's lucky for all of us.

"Steven"

yes of course, this is not a thread about MBs. Though some see that there is a clear and distinct line between a MB and kept boy, but basically, both are just the same. They want something better to happen to their lives. May it be materialsitically, getting a degree and a life of convenience. What make it more common is that they get their needs from farangs. I say toMAYto and they say ToMAHto.

Dating younger, older or the same ages comes with complications, tell me about anyone who doesnt have complications about dating? So still no difference. What you had with your ex is one of the many complications of dating his age AND that might even happen to anybody whose dating different age ranges also. I still go for the intentions of dating. Why do you want to date this person and why this person want to date you. I have been in the dating scene for sometime and I am lucky to find my partner. But before he came, there was always the reality check. A lot of questions of WHY.

He wasn't honest with you, was he also honest with the person who sending him money? Was he honest with the other people that he talked with? If that is the issue with him, then... you start to check and ask, why... why.... why. and I presume that you have your answers based on the reality that you have seen and know. no sugarcoating and going around the bush. As I said, it hurts but its true.

like I said, guys would say anything to please anybody. But if he was telling the truth about his preference and was sincere about it. Then he is one a million. Whatever reasons why he choose to date some his senior is its own. He can give you a million excuses and reasons. Only him knows.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think you are projecting your own tastes with regards to age, body, etc. onto O. and assuming they must be universal. A lot of guys who are/are attracted to "clone" gay muscleboy types have this problem. I have mentioned in this thread before that I am a large man (I'm being polite; a rude person might call me fat).

Yet, in my dating life, I have never been without someone. I have always, always found someone who liked me- including in other countries where the question would not have been about money at all. So trust me: big guys do ok. Small guys do ok. Medium guys do ok. Young and old do ok. We do ok because, as I mentioned, there is someone (sometimes lots of someones) for everyone.

I freely admit, for example, that the number of guys who are interested in heavy farang is smaller than the number of guys who are interested in medium build farang. Heck, in my experience the ratio might be as small as 1 or 2 out of 10 gay Thai guys- that still leaves me, by my most conservative estimation, 300,000 gay Thai guys who will prefer me to a medium-built man. At one a week, it will only take me about 6000 years to date them all.

O. is not completely honest with anyone, I think, although I believe there's a strong chance now that he's more honest with me than anyone else. I am quite sure that whomever he has cheated with was also a large foreign man- that's his type. The issue here is one of fidelity/honesty, not pretended affection. Or, in other words, the attraction was physical. I'm sorry if it's difficult for you to understand; I would assume from reading this thread that you know I am not one to sugarcoat matters.

"Steven"

[Buki]

I think you are projecting your own tastes with regards to age, body, etc. onto O. and assuming they must be universal. A lot of guys who are/are attracted to "clone" gay muscleboy types have this problem. I have mentioned in this thread before that I am a large man (I'm being polite; a rude person might call me fat).

Yet, in my dating life, I have never been without someone. I have always, always found someone who liked me- including in other countries where the question would not have been about money at all. So trust me: big guys do ok. Small guys do ok. Medium guys do ok. Young and old do ok. We do ok because, as I mentioned, there is someone (sometimes lots of someones) for everyone.

I freely admit, for example, that the number of guys who are interested in heavy farang is smaller than the number of guys who are interested in medium build farang. Heck, in my experience the ratio might be as small as 1 or 2 out of 10 gay Thai guys- that still leaves me, by my most conservative estimation, 300,000 gay Thai guys who will prefer me to a medium-built man. At one a week, it will only take me about 6000 years to date them all.

O. is not completely honest with anyone, I think, although I believe there's a strong chance now that he's more honest with me than anyone else. I am quite sure that whomever he has cheated with was also a large foreign man- that's his type. The issue here is one of fidelity/honesty, not pretended affection. Or, in other words, the attraction was physical. I'm sorry if it's difficult for you to understand; I would assume from reading this thread that you know I am not one to sugarcoat matters.

"Steven"

interesting, am I projecting a specific body type or age. I wasn't even marketing a specific one. I even generalized that dating comes with complications, whatever age and whomever you are dating. I have not even put your ex in a certain category, may it be directly or indirectly. Like I said, whatever his preference is, it is him who knows it. And I was sincere, about saying that he is COOL to like someone in a particular body type. I should know about it, since I am not the mascular type myself and my boyfriend stuck with me until now, because it wasn't the issue nor his preference. Like you said there is someone for everyone.

Was the message of knowing of intentions of dating sending a negative understanding? We all have our intentions of dating. Whatever reasons, it is yours and your own.

Your estimation of Thai guy dating a large guy is fairly impressive. Kudos to you! And I have never argued over that preference. 6000 years huh? Do you think I got those years. Wow. Only in Thailand.

Sir, you can never tell anyone's honesty, applying in general, but my statement is argueable, since it is subjective. Even your understanding on your ex honesty is still in question because your betting it on chance. I am not saying that all his feelings was done in pretense or even a portion of it. All I'm saying why is he keeping his honesty.

But to your credit, I cannot argue about O.'s merits and demerits; and his feelings since he is your ex. not mine. You know him best.

[Ijustwannateach]

It seemed to me your previous message was questioning why O. was dating me. My reply was to emphasize, as I have repeatedly done on this thread, that the attraction was physical. I've already posted the evidence for this multiple times, so if you want more detail you'll just have to re-read the thread.

And my point is: NOT only in Thailand. NOT only in Thailand. In Japan, there are two or three (out of a total of 4-5) gay magazines published monthly- thick, telephone-directory-sized magazines- which specialize either in readers who are attracted to big men or readers who are attracted to older (very old) men. The "Bear" community in the U.S. is alive and well, as is the "Daddy" community. There is someone for everyone, and NOT only in Thailand.

"Steven"

Incidentally, you may or may not be aware that conditions are very similar in your native country, which I have visited a number of times. I had many good times with great friends in the Philippines, and was never asked for money. A friend of mine from Bacolod recently sent me photos of himself with some of the Thai athletes staying at his hotel.

So, are you guapo, or would that be guapa?

"Steven"

Edited January 14, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Buki]

It seemed to me your previous message was questioning why O. was dating me. My reply was to emphasize, as I have repeatedly done on this thread, that the attraction was physical. I've already posted the evidence for this multiple times, so if you want more detail you'll just have to re-read the thread.

And my point is: NOT only in Thailand. NOT only in Thailand. In Japan, there are two or three (out of a total of 4-5) gay magazines published monthly- thick, telephone-directory-sized magazines- which specialize either in readers who are attracted to big men or readers who are attracted to older (very old) men. The "Bear" community in the U.S. is alive and well, as is the "Daddy" community. There is someone for everyone, and NOT only in Thailand.

"Steven"

Incidentally, you may or may not be aware that conditions are very similar in your native country, which I have visited a number of times. I had many good times with great friends in the Philippines, and was never asked for money. A friend of mine from Bacolod recently sent me photos of himself with some of the Thai athletes staying at his hotel.

So, are you guapo, or would that be guapa?

"Steven"

of course the "bear" and "daddy" communties are alive and kickin. I know that very fact, since I have read, seen and heard from the internet, movies and magazine all about it. I can vouch for the daddies that support my fellow unfortunate brethens in my native country, but not for the "bear" types. but, I would not say that it is similar conditions in the Philippines, since I am a native of that country and I know more of the happenings of the Filipino gay communities.

Farangs are not so many in my country compared here or in Japan. I tell you, when you get there, everybody looks at you either in amazement or bewilderment. It is not popular in the Philippines to date old foreigner unless you are desperate to get out of the country or you need the money(everyone wants to get out of my country. either be a nurse, work in the middle east - if you can afford the education, if not just marry a foreigner) . This time I am speaking as a Filipino, not other asians. You may say, old, young, fat, thin... they are all fine in dating, yes as long as you are white and you have the dough. Call me negative, call me nasty, call me pessimestic, but this is true. Some can argue that this is baloney, that it has not happened to me or to any of my friends. Any foreigner can say that all he wants, but they are not in our shoes. Though its a two way traffic here, they ask for your money... and the provider always ask something in return. Now for the fortunate ones, they do not want to go there. Either they date their own kind or they explore their cultural friendships with foreigners. Percentage of couples like this are very low, its frown upon by my culture and it is even frown upon the the gay community. I know that there will be a lot of men who would be angry reading this post, but this is a sad reality in my country. Perhaps it is different here, different in Japan, differerent in the states but it will always be like that in the Philippines.

-----------------------------

oh I'm both guapo and guapa. lol

Edited January 14, 2006 by Buki

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, you know best about your own country, and it's too bad if that's the way it is- though I guess in every country it's a minority of the population who want to date foreigners of any type, rich or poor. I just know that while I was in the Philippines most of the guys I met were extremely nice, kind, and generous (I used a friend's apartment in Manila while he was working abroad in Japan!); and while I got the kind of amazed stares you are talking about (especially in the provinces) they were almost universally friendly. I didn't run into anyone that I would describe as a "moneyboy," though I was aware they were around- most of the guys I met were through introduction by other guys. I think some of the guys I dated probably were just curious about white guys!

My experiences there weren't all positive... but never boring... and on the whole, I miss the place.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

O. and Music

O. has very strong- very strong- opinions about music. As I've mentioned before, he prefers loud, screaming, heavy metal in which the drums have the melody and the shrieks are part of the rhythm section. Since he came to Bangkok, he has been a part of this scene- he even knows one of two of the minor "singers." His claim, as ever among the young rebels without causes, is that this music is somehow more real and creative than most other styles of music.

I don't see it, myself, of course. Music of this sort is more sold as a channel for the expression of young anger than any real aesthetic- as soon as it goes out of vogue a new "angry music" is found. That's what happened to punk, for example [though there were some fine moments in punk rock - I particularly liked the song "The Only Good Christian Is Dead" by Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel, and of course the album Let Them Eat Jellybeans by you-know-who.]

As best I understand it, concerts in this line are a participatory event. You go, you get drunk, and you jump up and down all over the place stamping on people and screaming. When O. is particularly drunk at such events, he tells me, he occasionally also removes all his clothes. I've joked with him about going to concerts with him to see such sights, and he just laughs. "Cutie, they are metal boys. They will kill you." I usually reply, "They do not know how strong I am." He just rolls his eyes and says, "Oh, soooo coool."

So I think perhaps that my advice on another recent thread to a group of gay metal fans to be careful attending such concerts in Bangkok was probably good.

I presume it was at such an event that Bangkok's finest recently assaulted a crowd on KSR, as I previously reported.

Personally, I listen to all kinds of music, but my tastes are cyclic. For a few years, I'll be more interested in classical; then for awhile in rock, then jazz. For the last year or so, I've been doing dance pop and techno. O. shakes his head when I listen to it- too disgusted even to voice his opinion- though he frequently does a cute little ironic "gay dance" at such moments, swishing his hips and pointing his index fingers the opposite direction with an outrageous and scary smile on his face.

Once, near the beginning of our relationship- in fact, on our second or third date- I took O. to a Christmas performance of the Messiah. He was very brave, and stoic, and lasted as long as I did- until a mutual friend of ours suggested to me, near the beginning of Part II, that it seemed to him O. had had enough. We left then, much to O.'s relief. I think I still have a debt to pay in listening to traditional Isaan music....

"Steven"

[SDH]

O. is not completely honest with anyone, I think, although I believe there's a strong chance now that he's more honest with me than anyone else. I am quite sure that whomever he has cheated with was also a large foreign man- that's his type. "Steven"

Steven,

Okay are you going to take him back or not???

I think you should or at least see him occasionally for what you've said was very passionate sex!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

heh heh... hang in there- we're getting to that, but not without the details!

[Ijustwannateach]

What O. Thinks Of Me

It strikes me that I don't think I've ever asked O. this question directly.

I know his feelings for me, and his physical attraction. Those are pretty evident- and he does express them:

"I love my cutie!"

"I miss my cutie!"

"Why are you sooooo cute?"

He also knows (from his point of view) how different we are and has commented on it. He's impressed by my academic orientation and my knowledge of certain areas. On the other hand, he knows I have my limitations- especially in practical knowledge of Thailand- and is occasionally frustrated by this. Sometimes my knowledge of an area (like computers) has a bit more depth than his even though he doesn't realise it, and we'll have a difference of opinion. I'd have to admit, though, that in the end he and I are both right about equal numbers of times.

He is deeply concerned about my happiness and wellbeing, and does his best to help me fix problems when I have them. And he is afraid of my anger, which he describes as being "very strong and scary."

His opinion of me went down a bit, apparently, when I started dating other guys- though I had warned him this would happen if he didn't make his lifestyle more transparent to me, and informed him when I decided to start. All along, when I was his actual boyfriend, when I broke up with him, when I was simply dating him, and even now, he seems to regard me more or less as his boyfriend, or as he sometimes jokes, his "husband." I haven't asked him yet if this means whoever paid for his recent trip is his "minor husband."

He also knows I have my mischievous side and like to tease him- he says this means I am "evil" and he tells me not to be "bad." I usually reply telling him HE's the bad one- and then we're like two children:

No, YOU bad.

No, YOU'RE bad.

No, YOU bad.

No, YOU'RE bad.

YOU bad.

YOU're bad.

And so on.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

When O. came back from... wherever... we made an appointment for him to come over and get his clothes and things from my room. I boxed up the stuff that was sitting in his cabinet (we called it his locker) and I let him deal with the clothes, which was potentially a mistake since it meant we were together far too long.

I put something on the TV and watched it to keep my mind off things. O. started talking to me tentatively, then angrily.

"Yes, I was wrong... but you are the same... I made my decision that night... when I came to borrow your camera..."

O. was referring to an evening a couple of months or so before when, despite my strong hints to O. that I was busy, with a friend, that he shouldn't come over, etc., etc., he started calling me over and over asking to come over and borrow my camera for the graduation ceremony of his friend. As it happened, that was a night (one of not very many) when I had a date over in my room. Finally O. came over anyway, and rang me from the downstairs phone to my room phone, which I had not shut off. It happened that at that very moment my date and I were making out on the bed. I was furious, and only bothered to put on my shirt without buttoning it up to take the camera down to O. before things became worse by his coming up and knocking on the door. It must have been pretty obvious to O. what was going on (if my hints had not been enough before) and he looked stunned.

I wasn't proud of that evening, either, but as I've already related in this blog I had told O. that if he wasn't going to make his life more transparent, I was going to start dating other people.

"You don't understand me... yes, I lied... I sleep with other guys... but I'm not a moneyboy!"

"I never said you were."

I was trying to remain cool and calm, but this seemed to make O. even more upset.

"You are still the same as last time... you don't understand... you always blame me for everything..."

O. was crying by now, and I still had not heard any sign of apology or regret at his lying to me about his work or his trip. I had had enough, and O. had finished packing. "I'm sorry, O., but I think you had better go. I'm tired of your apology." He fled out the door with his things.

"Steven"

[americana]

Be strong Steve, you are in a supportive environment!