Money And Happiness

[Spee]

I think my mother nailed it when she said that money may not buy happiness, but it can do a lot to alleviate misery.

I learned it as "Money can't buy happiness .... but poverty can't either."

[Spee]

A lot of talk about how much money is needed to live in Thailand. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago, and found it interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/business...amp;oref=slogin

Article summary:

In 1974, Richard Easterlin, then an economist at the University of Pennsylvania, published a study in which he argued that economic growth didn’t necessarily lead to more satisfaction.

After the basic necessities are taken care of, people don't experience more happiness. They just reset the bar. Relative income — how much you make compared with others around you — mattered far more than absolute income, Mr. Easterlin wrote.

The media and academics have cited this study for decades, but last week the Brookings Institution in Washington, two young economists — from the University of Pennsylvania, as it happens — presented a rebuttal of the paradox. They came to the conclusion that income does matter and absolute income (measured globally ) seems to matter more than relative income.

There are bunch of things implied with articles like this, but rarely discussed:

- The work ethic. People work for a variety of reasons. For me personally, there are mainly 3: a) to feel a sense of personal accomplishment, to make a contribution to society and c) to earn enough money to live in the liefstyle that I want. Don't underestimate the work ethic for the benefits of the individual and the benefits to society in general.

- Along with that money comes an increased ability to spend money. Spending money benefits business owners, small and large alike. It helps other people to work and earn money to try to achieve a life in their chosen lifestyle.

- Along with that money may come an increase ability to invest money. Investing money can benefit the individual and the companies who employ people.

So for all the proponents of the barter system, and that money causes problems, sorry but fooey on youey. The only problems that come with money are potentials for abuse of acquired power. Money in an of itself is incredibly beneficial to society as a whole and the vast majority of people in society.

[siamamerican]

A lot of talk about how much money is needed to live in Thailand. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago, and found it interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/business...amp;oref=slogin

Article summary:

In 1974, Richard Easterlin, then an economist at the University of Pennsylvania, published a study in which he argued that economic growth didn’t necessarily lead to more satisfaction.

After the basic necessities are taken care of, people don't experience more happiness. They just reset the bar. Relative income — how much you make compared with others around you — mattered far more than absolute income, Mr. Easterlin wrote.

The media and academics have cited this study for decades, but last week the Brookings Institution in Washington, two young economists — from the University of Pennsylvania, as it happens — presented a rebuttal of the paradox. They came to the conclusion that income does matter and absolute income (measured globally ) seems to matter more than relative income.

There are bunch of things implied with articles like this, but rarely discussed:

- The work ethic. People work for a variety of reasons. For me personally, there are mainly 3: a) to feel a sense of personal accomplishment, to make a contribution to society and c) to earn enough money to live in the liefstyle that I want. Don't underestimate the work ethic for the benefits of the individual and the benefits to society in general.

- Along with that money comes an increased ability to spend money. Spending money benefits business owners, small and large alike. It helps other people to work and earn money to try to achieve a life in their chosen lifestyle.

- Along with that money may come an increase ability to invest money. Investing money can benefit the individual and the companies who employ people.

So for all the proponents of the barter system, and that money causes problems, sorry but fooey on youey. The only problems that come with money are potentials for abuse of acquired power. Money in an of itself is incredibly beneficial to society as a whole and the vast majority of people in society.

Agree, money is only evil if you don't have much of it. Some create self worth by criticizing those that have it.

In the US these individuals rant about the unfair tax system. In 2002, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income. Hmm, they make a third the income and pay over half the taxes. Now that is unfair for someone and it isn’t the bottom 95%. My tax bill was roughly 70k last year and, like most making good money, I paid it with little issue.

Now, to listen to the media chastise people in my income bracket, is frustrating. How about thanking us for our work ethic, putting their kids through the public school system and paying for the majority of the countries infrastructure. We are up to it, but a thank you would be nice.

I was hoping some of the posters that have stated they generally dislike LOS would explain why their absolute wealth is more important than happiness. Maybe they fell back in love with LOS’s climate, people, food, … I understand the relative wealth expats, but have hard time understanding why the unsatisfied wealthy stay in LOS to save on taxes…

[way2muchcoffee]

I disagree with your analysis siamamerican.

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher. A person doesn't need more than this to live very comfortably. It is the moral duty of the wealthy to pay for the less fortunate in any civilized society. This should include universal medical care, housing and food subsidies for the poor, education through university at reasonable cost, and the ability to live with relative comfort and dignity in old age for all citizens. At the moment the wealthy class is not meeting these responsibilities.

It strikes me that if each member of the wealthy class was paying their fair share for the maintenance of the country then it may be the case that the 90% figure would create a surplus. This surplus should go toward aiding other less fortunate nations.

Anyway, thanks for your tax dollars....

Edited April 19, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[GuestHouse]

I was hoping some of the posters that have stated they generally dislike LOS

You know I don't think I recall reading that anyone generally dislikes LOS, other than people who make a last minute rant on their way out.

That aside, what have we come to now - Does being wealthy deny one opinions that disagree with others?

[Huey]

I disagree with your analysis siamamerican.

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher. A person doesn't need more than this to live very comfortably. It is the moral duty of the wealthy to pay for the less fortunate in any civilized society. This should include universal medical care, housing and food subsidies for the poor, education through university at reasonable cost, and the ability to live with relative comfort and dignity in old age for all citizens. At the moment the wealthy class is not meeting these responsibilities.

It strikes me that if each member of the wealthy class was paying their fair share for the maintenance of the country then it may be the case that the 90% figure would create a surplus. This surplus should go toward aiding other less fortunate nations.

Anyway, thanks for your tax dollars....

YOU don't need more than that to live comfortably, why should every achiever lower their standards just because you want to hate on the "haves". People like you are why we have a 2nd amendment in the States...a good thing too.

[siamamerican]

I disagree with your analysis siamamerican.

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher. A person doesn't need more than this to live very comfortably. It is the moral duty of the wealthy to pay for the less fortunate in any civilized society. This should include universal medical care, housing and food subsidies for the poor, education through university at reasonable cost, and the ability to live with relative comfort and dignity in old age for all citizens. At the moment the wealthy class is not meeting these responsibilities.

It strikes me that if each member of the wealthy class was paying their fair share for the maintenance of the country then it may be the case that the 90% figure would create a surplus. This surplus should go toward aiding other less fortunate nations.

Anyway, thanks for your tax dollars....

You are more than welcome I take pride in helping those that can't find there way like yourself. All I would hope for is that you take a look in at yourself. Can you work harder? If the answer is yes, but you want to enjoy other things that life has to offer, then understand you owe it to us hard working, high income individuals. Personally I don't mooch off others, but we are all built differently and have different definitions of fare.

Again, I'm glad to help the needy and you are definitely needy in many aspects.

[RY12]

I disagree with your analysis siamamerican.

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher. A person doesn't need more than this to live very comfortably. It is the moral duty of the wealthy to pay for the less fortunate in any civilized society.

I full-blown marxist indeed! Um, think about what you said one more time, ...why would anyone develop or improve their business if they couldn't make over 100k? Do you realize what a disaster that would be for civilazation? we'd still be in the bronze age. We NEED rich, gambling ba$tards to invest and develop our economy... don't get me wrong, I hate them as much as you do, but people seeking wealth is what develops a country. I ain't gonna be the one doing it (unlike rich businessmen, I'm going to be making money because I got an education and developed a skill, I didn't just throw all my money into a hotel and happen to succeed).

[j0hnga1t]

He who said "Money can't buy love" obviously doesn't know where to shop......

But all joking aside, having money makes life easier in LOS since I will be obligated to help my gf's family when we eventually get married and I move out there (in six years).  Life is hard out there and I'm more than happy to help them.  I'm just glad that I have the money to do so.  I heard it once said that having money will solve 95% of problems that occur during marriage.....

[siamamerican]

I was hoping some of the posters that have stated they generally dislike LOS

You know I don't think I recall reading that anyone generally dislikes LOS, other than people who make a last minute rant on their way out.

That aside, what have we come to now - Does being wealthy deny one opinions that disagree with others?

To the contrary, I believe a lot can be learned from the wealthy. I also think the wealthy could learn a little from the less well off. If I gave you the wrong impression, my bad. At times people take my thoughts differently than I intended. We all have our weaknesses - mine being that I lack in clarity at times.

[howtoescape]

I full-blown marxist indeed! Um, think about what you said one more time, ...why would anyone develop or improve their business if they couldn't make over 100k? Do you realize what a disaster that would be for civilazation? we'd still be in the bronze age. We NEED rich, gambling ba$tards to invest and develop our economy... don't get me wrong, I hate them as much as you do, but people seeking wealth is what develops a country. I ain't gonna be the one doing it (unlike rich businessmen, I'm going to be making money because I got an education and developed a skill, I didn't just throw all my money into a hotel and happen to succeed).

I agree with your post that we need gamblers, entreupreneurs etc...its stating the obvious.

But when you have for example these Russian oil Billionaires who havent invented anything to make the planet better and are obscenely rich due to being in the right place at the right time, or people in finance who have recently lost the banks shareholders billions getting million pound bonuses for losing less then their competitors, these are parts of capitalism that keep many people from developing and are a disaster for civilisation.

[tartempion]

Over the last 100 years we destroyed more of our planet than in the 5000 preceding years.

Someone wants to claim money has nothing to do with our stupidity?

[sunreader]

Money and Happiness.

A guy in the UK in January won £19m on the Lotto, he looks OK but actually is very ill and could die at any moment.

He said he would give every penny of it away just for good health.

The money means nothing, and personally I think there is no correlation at all.

The poorest man in the world can laugh as much as the richest.

Our emotional limitations are not governed by external materialism, they are quite seoerate entities.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/20...89520-20302725/

[bonviveur]

This is such a great topic, a subject I have struggle for many years and it's nice to rad so many different point of view from people in and out of Thailand. I have been very poor and doing better able to travel a couple times a year which I love but at the same same I wonder if I am wasting my best year by trying to earn as much as possible.

15 years ago I would say if I ever have the kind of money I have now, which is not a lot, what would do? The answer would of been find a nice country such Thailand open a business to give me enough income to live and keep me from spending the principal. 15 years later I am still struggling with the decision am I going to wait till I am 60 or 65 to finally say enough is enough.

This is why this topic hit home for me, how much is enough and I am not talking millions. I just want o live peacefully on some remote place, now it's south east asia, and be selfish and work for myself for once and enjoy what I do.

No one is happy being poor but almost everyone say they are happy being rich.

[Mighty Mouse]

My money didn't buy me happiness. It bought me a sniveling, conniving, limping gold digger.

[Naam]

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher.

way2muchcoffee???

[Beardog]

One can be rich in wealth & be totally unfulfilled in life.

Better to be rich in spirit & have enough to pay your needs & help others less fortunate along the way if you can.

Good post = try telling my Chinese landlady that.

I guess the Chinese fall into NO TICKI _NO LAUNDRY Slot. Especially the women ......Spirit is money.Not enough spirit= not enough money!

[garro]

I can't remember who said it, but it's often true.

'You don't own your possessions, your possessions own you'.

I do believe you can be happy with nothing.

I have experience of working with the homeless in London. In fact I was once homeless in London. Now many of these people are not very happy, but this is more to do with the fact that many of them have mental health issues. Some homeless people ended up on the street because they could not cope with all the responsibility that came with money. These people are often rehoused but end up back on the street in a few weeks because they can't cope. They prefer the simple life of a street person. Some of these people were actually once very successful. Some had big houses, and I have met more than one ex-professor from Oxford and Cambridge.

Others, for example the forest monks in Thailand, choose poverty and are happy. Although their number is decreasing.

I truly believe that their is far more happiness in sharing possessions than there is in obtaining them.

[Naam]

Anyway, thanks for your tax dollars....

the attitude you display makes my day. i am happy that nowadays none of my taxes are wasted on way2muchcoffee. i paid way too much tax in my home country for parasites who did not deserve it. i have paid way too much tax financing smart bombs killing innocent people. having said so i claim that i am spending every year definitely more of my hard earned money on those who (i deem) deserve it than the amount of taxes people like you have paid or will ever pay in their whole lifetime.

[Spee]

I believe taxes on any income over $100,000 should be something like 90% or higher.

What nonsensical communist dictatorial claptrap! There is only one way for stupid laws like this to be enforced and that is through the source of a strong central government backed up by military force. Well let's see how well this works in countries matching that description. Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Burma, North Korea, Pakistan, Iran. Yeah, great, let's turn the whole world into those gleaming havens of personal freedom and economic prosperity.

A person doesn't need more than this to live very comfortably. It is the moral duty of the wealthy to pay for the less fortunate in any civilized society.

Who the heck are you to pass such judgments??? Why is it up to government or anyone else to demand or pass judgment on how much money is enough, or too much? This kind of wacko though is contrary to everything having to do with personal and economic freedom.

But since you obviously are somewhere between a hard core communist and a tax and spend liberal, let's take a look at the numbers. In the US, the top 25% of wage earners pay more than 85% of all federal income taxes already. The top 50% pay 97%. The top 1% pay almost 40%.

So guess what? The middle and uppper class income earners already pay the most taxes, by a country mile. The poor pay virtually none. And yet the welfare rolls and welfare budgets are higher than they have ever been.

There is only one way for the things you want to have happen, happen. That is by central government enforcement. In the US at least, there is a 70 year track record proving that the government can't fix anything. All they can promise is that more taxation will solve everything, and we know from history that is a bald-faced lie.

And while we're talking about taxes, let's get something else straight. It is a proven fact many times over that tax revenues skyrocket, local and national economies boom, and individual earners are better off when TAXES ARE REDUCED! TAX INCREASES ALWAYS produce the opposite effect and results intended.

Here is an example from a past article in the Wall Stree Journal:

"In 1980, when the top income tax rate was 70%, the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes; now, with a top rate of 35%, they pay more than double that share."

By the way, if you really do want to pay 90% of your income in taxes, you are free to do so. Every tax form ever invented, including those in the US and UK, always have a line inviting you to pay more than your fair share.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Spee

[Gary A]

I think communism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Tax the rich and give to the poor? The better idea is to put the poor to work and abolish the welfare system. We do have a responsibility to provide for the less fortunate, BUT, not when they are stronger and healthier than I am.

Money is only important when you don't have any. Living on a budget would be depressing. I don't throw money away but if I want a new toy, I buy it.

ADDED - I certainly don't worry about how much I spend on toilet paper.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Gary A

[Heng]

What's funny is when people say things like 'money is the root of all evil,' 'you don't need money to be happy'... and then when asked what I should do with any excess money I might have... "you should of course give it to the poor or at least raise their salaries."

All of a sudden it's not the root of all evil.

[garro]

Of course money is not the 'root of all evil'. Money is just paper and metals. What can be the problem is the value people put on money.

[way2muchcoffee]

LOL

Bit if a trollish comment I agree, but nevertheless the underlying sentiments are my true beliefs. Utopian? Sure. Communist? Not really, more like socialist. Realistic? No, because people are self-serving, greedy, and power hungry, and will always choose to trample on their fellow man to get ahead. In my opinion it is the wealthy classes, in general, who have always caused the greatest suffering in the world. Feudalism, physical slavery, and now economic slavery and the police state.

Csn I work harder? I work 60-80 hours a week teaching mathematics and physics to high school students. All of my work, every last hour, directly benefits society.

Do I pay taxes? Of course, to the Thai government. Between 15-20% of my salary. Also I help the Thai government by paying additional costs at National Parks. I give plenty to the Ministry of Immigration and Ministry of Labor for the privilege of living and working here. It could be argued that I can do more. In addition I support my wife. I also help the 14 members of her extended family get by when the need a bit of assistance. I recently offered to bring one of the young cousins to BKK and provide a proper education for the lad.

Do you think I gain from social programs while living in Thailand? No. Not one bit. So your arguments about me not supporting myself are incorrect. So don't worry, your tax dollars aren't going into my pocket. I am glad that they are helping others though - I guess that is an indirect benefit.

Do you think I am poor? I don't think so. I live in a decent shophouse. I am married. I own a car which I have been paying off for two years with never a late payment. I support my wife, and her family (to a lesser extent). I save money. I travel. I use the A/C when it's hot. I'm about to enroll in weekend classes for teacher development to improve my skills, paid for with my savings. We have all we NEED and then some.

Naam - I agree your money should not be used for smart bombs to destroy other countries. It should be used for food and development aid instead.

Spee - I agree that the scheme I propose won't work. The human species hasn't developed the morality and conscience required, and probably never will. Much more likely is that we'll continue to produce our SUV's, convince the rest of the world to aspire to the riches of the US, destroy the planet through our avarice and consumerism, and perhaps extinct ourselves, along with millions of other species.

Edited April 20, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[Naam]

I work 60-80 hours a week teaching mathematics and physics to high school students. All of my work, every last hour, directly benefits society.

Do I pay taxes? Of course, to the Thai government. Between 15-20% of my salary. Also I help the Thai government by paying additional costs at National Parks. I give plenty to the Ministry of Immigration and Ministry of Labor for the privilege of living and working here. It could be argued that I can do more. In addition I support my wife. I also help the 14 members of her extended family get by when the need a bit of assistance. I recently offered to bring one of the young cousins to BKK and provide a proper education for the lad.

that all sounds very reasonable but bears no relevance to your first post.

[Naam]

I certainly don't worry about how much I spend on toilet paper.

lucky you! that's one of my biggest problems

[way2muchcoffee]

I work 60-80 hours a week teaching mathematics and physics to high school students. All of my work, every last hour, directly benefits society.

Do I pay taxes? Of course, to the Thai government. Between 15-20% of my salary. Also I help the Thai government by paying additional costs at National Parks. I give plenty to the Ministry of Immigration and Ministry of Labor for the privilege of living and working here. It could be argued that I can do more. In addition I support my wife. I also help the 14 members of her extended family get by when the need a bit of assistance. I recently offered to bring one of the young cousins to BKK and provide a proper education for the lad.

that all sounds very reasonable but bears no relevance to your first post.

Agreed. It wasn't meant to support my earlier post. It was addressed to comments in posts #37 and #49.

[siamamerican]

Do you think I am poor? I don't think so. I live in a decent shophouse. I am married. I own a car which I have been paying off for two years with never a late payment. I support my wife, and her family (to a lesser extent). I save money. I travel. I use the A/C when it's hot. I'm about to enroll in weekend classes for teacher development to improve my skills, paid for with my savings. We have all we NEED and then some.

Well, you have a purpose in life and display some intelligence. Not a bad post and it makes some sense.

What I have an issue with is your admission that the human species will never develop morality. Your solution is to excessively tax individuals that pay for infrastructure you enjoy. How were those roads paid for that you drive your car on. Why do use AC when it's is hot. Don't you know that the less fortunate can't afford AC and, more importantly, it is not good for the planet? This post is coherent, but extremely hypocritical. You use your AC, because you can afford the bill. I bet if you had more money you would use it even more.

Your definition of morality is very subjective. It's OK to destroy the planet for you , but not for others. How much AC and how large of a car can I drive?

[way2muchcoffee]

Fair points SA.

1) The only way for me to not be hypocritical with respect to my views is to live off the land. Sadly, I'd probably die trying. It is a technological, community-based world we live in, and living off the land is no longer feasible. All that a person can reasonably do is to minimize the harm they cause and maximize the help they give.

2) Regarding my vehicle. I put about 6,000 km per year on my truck, maybe a little more. I never use it around town, but only to visit my wife's family and to take the odd vacation. Invariably we bring the extended family (working in BKK) back to the village with us whenever we go. The truck holds about 10 people and it is usually full. I get about 13 km/L, but am considering switching to LPG in the near future in order to further minimize the harm this 'luxury item' causes. In short, I try to limit my contribution to pollution by restricting the operation of my vehicle.

3) Regarding 'excessive' taxes. I don't think they are excessive. This is a matter of opinion and belief. Excess monies should be used to increase the standard of living for the world population as a whole, including infrastructure, and not for purchasing the second house, car, 50 inch plasma TV, or jetsetting around the world.

You suggest that when a person makes large amounts of money from business or trade, it is their money. Following your train of thought that means the wealthy classes are shouldering the burden of infrastructure requirements and social services. And under your belief system these are valid conclusions.

Under my belief system, however, that is wrong thinking. I believe excess monies beyond what is required for a comfortable life should not be private but public, and should be used for the greater good. In short, the money should never have been theirs to begin with, which means they are shouldering no burden. Of course there is the problem with governments and how they choose to spend the tax money, but that is another issue altogether.

4) I use A/C when it's hot because I was born and raised in a cold climate (Seattle). In the same way, a person from SE Asia living in Seattle would use the heater in Spring, Fall, and Winter whereas a person from Seattle would be more conditioned to the local weather and would really only need to use the heater in Winter.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I fully understand the majority views. And I really do appreciate the contribution that the wealthy classes make to society. I simply believe they should be doing much much more. Why? Because they are the ones who are in a position to do so.

Hypocritically yours,

coffeeman

Edited April 20, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[Khun Jean]

Csn I work harder? I work 60-80 hours a week teaching mathematics and physics to high school students. All of my work, every last hour, directly benefits society.

Do I pay taxes? Of course, to the Thai government. Between 15-20% of my salary.

Now imagine living in a country where you pay almost 85% tax. Would you be happy?

I posted about hapiness and money and that for me CONTROL about my own earned money is the most important.

I can use it for 'good' and i can use it for 'evil'. At least when i have control i can make sure 100% of it is used for good.

In my own country i bought a house, no mortgage but still have to pay for it. I had a car, i had to pay tax when buying it (42%) and every liter of fuel i paid tax for it (80%) and every month i had to pay road tax. This tax had to be paid from the already taxed salary of course.

Tax, tax, tax, tax and more tax. In that scenario it is better to NOT work and get social benefits, as many do. Lots of free time and freedom.

The better the pay the more tax and less control. This is the reality for most people.

Now i choose to not pay tax anymore, except the 15-20% tax in Thailand which i find reasonable.

I have control about that because i could also choose to not pay tax at all. I just feel living in a country you should support it. But if a country starts to bleed you dry it is time to move or otherwise protect your hard earned money.