Unscrupulous Western Employers

[Bananaman]

Thais often get a rough deal at the hands of their Thai employers but if there's one thing that I cannot abide, it's westerners who come over here and do the same because they know they can get away with it. Sure, there are plenty of fair and honest foreign employers in this country but there's also a reasonable number who are happy to exploit the lack of rights and protection that workers have in this country. I could go on to be very specific in my accusations but I'd be breaking forum rules in doing so. I've seen and heard enough in my time here that'd put some of these guys firmly at the mercy of courts and tribunals were they to do the same back in their home countries.

Sometimes "when in Rome" is not applicable!

[Prakanong]

I always thought Thai labour laws were pretty stringent and were likely to be applied where foreigners were breaking them?

Have the Thai's you have seen mistreated been to the Labour Dept and reported the offences?

[PhilHarries]

To my knowledge western companies setting up and doing business in Thailand treat their Thai staff very well and often more along the lines of what they could expect in the west (except for the pay of course). Of course I am talking about the larger corporations and the small businesses could be a different ball game.

What bananaman might be alluding to is the outsourcing of production facilities by western companies using Thai affiliates or independant Thai companies who utilise cheap labour and poor working conditions to keep costs down. The western outfits keep any contact with the Thai facilities to aminimum so that they can distance themselves whenever something happens to bring in the media.

[Bananaman]

I always thought Thai labour laws were pretty stringent and were likely to be applied where foreigners were breaking them?

Have the Thai's you have seen mistreated been to the Labour Dept and reported the offences?

I've seen a good few given a raw deal over the years and to my knowledge, none of them has ever reported the offences. The employees in the situation that prompted me to open this thread, haven't either and I'm not sure they would if I encouraged them to because (1) we all know Thais don't like to complain and (2) as much as they are getting taken for a ride, none of them is in a position to risk losing their job should the Labour Dept rule in favour of the employer.

[Bananaman]

To my knowledge western companies setting up and doing business in Thailand treat their Thai staff very well and often more along the lines of what they could expect in the west (except for the pay of course). Of course I am talking about the larger corporations and the small businesses could be a different ball game.

What bananaman might be alluding to is the outsourcing of production facilities by western companies using Thai affiliates or independant Thai companies who utilise cheap labour and poor working conditions to keep costs down. The western outfits keep any contact with the Thai facilities to aminimum so that they can distance themselves whenever something happens to bring in the media.

It's small businesses I'm talking about where a lot of the time the employees don't even have contracts, so it would seem that they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they tried to make an official case of it.

[meom]

What situation are you exactly talking about? Are they being under paid, cut in their over time or whatever?

Maybe you should give an example.

[deathstardan]

Thais often get a rough deal at the hands of their Thai employers but if there's one thing that I cannot abide, it's westerners who come over here and do the same because they know they can get away with it. Sure, there are plenty of fair and honest foreign employers in this country but there's also a reasonable number who are happy to exploit the lack of rights and protection that workers have in this country. I could go on to be very specific in my accusations but I'd be breaking forum rules in doing so. I've seen and heard enough in my time here that'd put some of these guys firmly at the mercy of courts and tribunals were they to do the same back in their home countries.

Sometimes "when in Rome" is not applicable!

What's good about that argument is you can totally reverse it!

I have had 3 Thai employers and ALL of them tried to screw me for money. One of them tried to charge me for my work permit and was late every month with my salary. I stayed 3 months.

For some reason as well, they seemed to think that I had no intellect and could not perform basic calculations concerning my pay. Teach in Thailand again, Never!

I miss Thailand like crazy but I would never want to work there again.

I teach in the UK now, a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.

Edited April 28, 2008 by deathstardan

[ThNiner]

What's good about that argument is you can totally reverse it!

I have had 3 Thai Employers and ALL of them tried to screw me for money. One of them tried to charge me for my work permit and was late every month with my salary.

For some reason as well, they seem to thought that I had no intellect and could not perform basic calculations concerning my pay. Teach in Thailand

I'm Thai and I know full well that my English is flawed, but I hope you are not teaching English in Thailand.

EDIT: Broken English.

Edited April 28, 2008 by ThNiner

[dave111223]

Did i miss the point or does this thread lack any real substance?

[Bananaman]

What situation are you exactly talking about? Are they being under paid, cut in their over time or whatever?

Maybe you should give an example.

This was intended to be a general gripe about an issue that I have encountered on numerous occasions here; however, if you want specifics I'm referring to a fairly reputable foreign-owned business that has had several Thai employees for well over six months, has not given a single one a contract and makes alterations (in its own favour) to salaries and working rules whenever it feels like it.

[Prakanong]

I always thought Thai labour laws were pretty stringent and were likely to be applied where foreigners were breaking them?

Have the Thai's you have seen mistreated been to the Labour Dept and reported the offences?

I've seen a good few given a raw deal over the years and to my knowledge, none of them has ever reported the offences. The employees in the situation that prompted me to open this thread, haven't either and I'm not sure they would if I encouraged them to because (1) we all know Thais don't like to complain and (2) as much as they are getting taken for a ride, none of them is in a position to risk losing their job should the Labour Dept rule in favour of the employer.

Ok - I know you are talking about smaller companies now.

My current company is a large household name MNC and I know our Thai staff are treated very well - their starting salary for fresh graduates beats most English teachers (outside well qualified real teachers at INT School) - that not much of a measure though is it ;-)

[Etrigan]

Did i miss the point or does this thread lack any real substance?

I enjoyed the OP's avatar more than the thread!

Anyway, the labour dept. exists for a reason. Advise OP to use them, and if not, what's the point of the rant??? There are dodgy employers all over the world, inc Thailand. Get over it.

[deathstardan]

What's good about that argument is you can totally reverse it!

I have had 3 Thai Employers and ALL of them tried to screw me for money. One of them tried to charge me for my work permit and was late every month with my salary.

For some reason as well, they seem to thought that I had no intellect and could not perform basic calculations concerning my pay. Teach in Thailand

I'm Thai and I know full well that my English is flawed, but I hope you are not teaching English in Thailand.

EDIT: Broken English.

Sorry, I was writing in a rush, my bath was over flowing.

I have corrected it.....

( Being told by a Thai about my broken English......shameful.)

Edited April 28, 2008 by deathstardan

[ThNiner]

What's good about that argument is you can totally reverse it!

I have had 3 Thai Employers and ALL of them tried to screw me for money. One of them tried to charge me for my work permit and was late every month with my salary.

For some reason as well, they seem to thought that I had no intellect and could not perform basic calculations concerning my pay. Teach in Thailand

I'm Thai and I know full well that my English is flawed, but I hope you are not teaching English in Thailand.

EDIT: Broken English.

Sorry, I was writing in a rush, my bath was over flowing.

I have corrected it.....

( Being told by a Thai about my broken English......shameful.)

I meant my own English was broken, not yours. (I thought it was kind of funny that I saw mistakes in your post. Yet I still had to edit my own to correct mine.) Anyway, good luck teaching in the UK...

[meom]

What situation are you exactly talking about? Are they being under paid, cut in their over time or whatever?

Maybe you should give an example.

This was intended to be a general gripe about an issue that I have encountered on numerous occasions here; however, if you want specifics I'm referring to a fairly reputable foreign-owned business that has had several Thai employees for well over six months, has not given a single one a contract and makes alterations (in its own favour) to salaries and working rules whenever it feels like it.

What type of work are these employees doing? A lot of companies hire people on day rates (150 baht /day or something) and I not sure how the labor law works in this case and if an employee is entitled to a contract after x days of work at the same company.

[Bananaman]

Did i miss the point or does this thread lack any real substance?

I enjoyed the OP's avatar more than the thread!

Anyway, the labour dept. exists for a reason. Advise OP to use them, and if not, what's the point of the rant??? There are dodgy employers all over the world, inc Thailand. Get over it.

Knowing that the law and bureaucracy in this country often fails to protect the rights of the individual, I find it hard to have any faith in the supreme power of the Labour Dept. And seriously, how many Thais do you know that would be prepared to kick up a stink in their place of work, at the risk of either losing their job or having to live with the uncomfortable atmosphere that would ensue if they were successful with their case?

[deathstardan]

What's good about that argument is you can totally reverse it!

I have had 3 Thai Employers and ALL of them tried to screw me for money. One of them tried to charge me for my work permit and was late every month with my salary.

For some reason as well, they seem to thought that I had no intellect and could not perform basic calculations concerning my pay. Teach in Thailand

I'm Thai and I know full well that my English is flawed, but I hope you are not teaching English in Thailand.

EDIT: Broken English.

Sorry, I was writing in a rush, my bath was over flowing.

I have corrected it.....

( Being told by a Thai about my broken English......shameful.)

I meant my own English was broken, not yours. (I thought it was kind of funny that I saw mistakes in your post. Yet I still had to edit my own to correct mine.) Anyway, good luck teaching in the UK...

Thank you very much, I have great students now!

I teach English to foreign prisoners in my local jail...I never thought I would ever work for the prison system!

Edited April 28, 2008 by deathstardan

[ThNiner]

Knowing that the law and bureaucracy in this country often fails to protect the rights of the individual, I find it hard to have any faith in the supreme power of the Labour Dept. And seriously, how many Thais do you know that would be prepared to kick up a stink in their place of work, at the risk of either losing their job or having to live with the uncomfortable atmosphere that would ensue if they were successful with their case?

True. I agree. Usually the most that Thai employees would do in this stuation is to walk out and find another job, I think. I don't really know much about this issue though...as I have never been employed myself. And from what I've seen in my family business, every employee seems to have been treated well and they are all quite happy with their jobs.

Edited April 28, 2008 by ThNiner

[wilko]

My experience of middle to large (foriegn) compnaies in Thailand is that they tread a very thin line between Thai labour laws and outright exploitation.

Edited April 28, 2008 by wilko

[Prakanong]

My experience of middle to large (foriegn) compnaies in Thailand is that they tread a very thin line between Thai labour laws and outright exploitation.

Our staff would be out the door in a second if they thought they were being exploited and they could walk into jobs tomorrow as we have found!

[Jimjim1968]

I had 2 falang bosses in my first 2 years here. Both really acted the boss with me and as I am nearly 40 this didn't go down well. They tried to make me do crap run-around jobs for them and and tried to make me feel third rate. This did not go down well. I asked them to stop and that I would do a good job for them without nit picking or trying to put one over on me, but they didn't. I vowed never to work for a whitey again.

My current Thai boss, although dreadful at business, has always treated me with utmost respect.

I was totally pissed off with these falang who should know better. One used to borrow money of a Thai employee to buy pizza and then insist she did not leave her apartment in case he needed something (for a six week holiday period). He tried to diddle her out of wages when he eventually sacked her and I had to testify at the social office so she could get the cash she was entitled to. The other one bitched about all the other employees to me and told lies about me to mutual friends. He also threatened me.

So, I am happy to work with Thai people and NEVER for the white man. As in Little Big Man, "do you hate the white man now?"

It was a rough introduction to this country to be treated this way by my own kind.

[wilko]

staff turnover.....a good symptom....

[YoungFarang13]

Thais often get a rough deal at the hands of their Thai employers but if there's one thing that I cannot abide, it's westerners who come over here and do the same because they know they can get away with it. Sure, there are plenty of fair and honest foreign employers in this country but there's also a reasonable number who are happy to exploit the lack of rights and protection that workers have in this country. I could go on to be very specific in my accusations but I'd be breaking forum rules in doing so. I've seen and heard enough in my time here that'd put some of these guys firmly at the mercy of courts and tribunals were they to do the same back in their home countries.

Sometimes "when in Rome" is not applicable!

so how much did it cost to buy her out of the contract?

[Cuban]

Thais do you know that would be prepared to kick up a stink in their place of work, at the risk of either losing their job or having to live with the uncomfortable atmosphere that would ensue if they were successful with their case?

I think the OP needs to give a solid example of mis-treatment rather than a general statement.

Thai employees do have rights and can cause trouble for their farang employers, that would not apply to Thai employers, should they wish to do so. Farang bosses are aware of this so probably would not step outside the law.

Having good Thai staff to work with farang is not easy depending on the skill set required for the task and the overall business process. In my case I have a core of good staff - but a number of floaters (!) that come through - they interview well but don't last in the office enviroment. I make my own judgements - but the feed back from senior Thai staff is an important factor in whether they stay or not. Staff that cause disruption for whatever reason will not last, the last one that we had leave resigned, partly due to a dispute with another member of staff. There are many factor that need to be considered in staff management - and many will not be known to the farang manager unless you are in an open office with eye contact with your staff at all times. But that is your task as manager, to manage.

I would also suggest that the nature of some jobs is such that staff have a high churn rate.

[Bananaman]

Thais do you know that would be prepared to kick up a stink in their place of work, at the risk of either losing their job or having to live with the uncomfortable atmosphere that would ensue if they were successful with their case?

I think the OP needs to give a solid example of mis-treatment rather than a general statement.

If you insist.

A Thai lady I knew was taken on as a cook at a farang-owned guest house. The pay was the usual crap service industry rate (about B5,000 a month) and the poor girl got 2 days off a month. The owner, recognising that this lady was pretty good at most things, gradually whittled down the rest of the workforce and heaped the extra responsibilities on the lady in question. She ended up working more hours for no extra pay and having to flog herself silly to accomplish all of those extra duties. She had no contract so no clear job description and this guy milked her for all he could.

This girl was from a poor background and probably wouldn't have even known how to spell 'Labour office' (in Thai or English) let alone have known that she could have gone to such a place and reported her employer.

Now you can all make your assumptions about the situation but as you didn't see it with your own eyes you can't judge it for what it really was and I guess that was the reason why I was avoiding detailing specific scenarios in this thread because everybody fills in the gaps with their own ideas and puts a spin on it that lacks the perspective that someone who witnessed it with their own eyes is privy to.

[ThNiner]

Bananaman, if you are her friend, I think you should tell her about the "Labour Office" and also encourage her to find another job/employer. I'm sure, as good and hardworking a cook as she is, there will be plenty other restaurents and guesthouses that wanna hire her and pay more. I wish you and her the best of luck.

[Etrigan]

Bananaman - Did you ever live at 29 Acacia Rd?

Anyway, it seems like you are trying to make a case. "crap rate...poor girl...flog herself...can not spell..." The last word was "spin". And Bananaman, you're the one doing the spinning now.

Either you directly assist the girl, or you don't. Whining on this forum about a global phenomena serves no purpose.

[bendix]

The Thai Labour Laws are actually very weighted in favour of the employee and the Employment Tribunal is invariably inclined to side with the employee against the employer.

That the labour environment SEEMS like slave labour has nothing to do with the legislation or the implementation of that legislation, and everything to do with the fact that 99% of employees and most employers don't know the law. Let's face it . . most thai labourers and low level workers are thankful to be in any job and won't ever challenge authority. It won't occur to them to check the laws or cause trouble to their employer.

[Bananaman]

Bananaman - Did you ever live at 29 Acacia Rd?

Anyway, it seems like you are trying to make a case. "crap rate...poor girl...flog herself...can not spell..." The last word was "spin". And Bananaman, you're the one doing the spinning now.

Either you directly assist the girl, or you don't. Whining on this forum about a global phenomena serves no purpose.

"Whining on this forum about a global phenomena serves no purpose" is a fairly weightless retort by all accounts as many of the popular topics on here (bad driving, poor customer service, noisy neighbours etc.) are also global phenomena (that's plural btw, singular you might like to note is phenomenon) but still get done to death as they are the experiences of those living here.

Anyways, the previous scenario that I described was in fact an old one and this thread was not started as a means of addressing any one situation in which Thai employees are exploited by western employers but more to find out whether or not any other members had witnessed the injustices that I've seen over the years.

My point also, was to say that unscrupulous employers coming from countries with strictly enforced labour laws should know better and fall considerably lower down the evolutionary chain than Thai employers who just think it's the norm to screw their workers for every last satang.

[bendix]

I'm sorry. I made a typo above. I should have said Thai employment law is weighted towards the EMPLOYEE, not the employer. Decisions are usually made in favour of the employee.

The race or nationality of the employee / employer is irrelevant. There have been numerous instances of farang employees winning cases against Thai empoyers (including at least two I know about involving members of this forum). Similarly - and more understandably - numerous decisions in favour of thai employees successfully winning against foreign employers.