Native or non-native speaking teachers?

[chonabot]

I have had a few emails/pms from non-native English speakers with regards to my postings regarding "English should be taught by native English speakers".

The content of these mails/pms were basically telling me that "Thailand is an Asian country,therefore the teachers should be Asian"

I won't name/shame the person(s) who sent me these mails/pms, but I wondered if the users on this board could give a few opinions.

The grammar/context and spelling in the mails/pms wasn't very good, so you can make your own assumptions as to the chap was taught by.

Hopefully he will read this thread and not be so shy, maybe even help the debate.

Discuss.....( I always wanted to say that   )

[markt]

Hi Chonabot,

Does this person teach English in Thailand?

[chonabot]

Markt , I believe the chap doesnt teach , just had a problem with my xenophobic overviews on the subject, as it were....

[LPCustom69]

Hi Chonobot -- I think that to learn proper english, it should be taught by native speakers. The PM wants the thais to learn english to compete in the world economy. If that's the case, they don't want to embarass themselves by speaking "bar english" or some other half-assed variation. It would definitely cause them to lose face if they are "english trained" and speak like a 5 year old.

:cool:

[mrentoul]

I think that to learn proper english, it should be taught by native speakers

I don't agree. I know Thais who speak wonderful English. However, often it's a question of what the market wants.

Often Thai students will prefer a native speaker, because they think Thais who speak English have a poor accent (and sometimes they do). The assumption appears to be that if you get the ''real'' thing (a native speaker) then you'll get real English (a ''real'' accent).

Spelling and grammar mistakes? I've lost count of the number of times I have wanted to correct sloppy English posted here by westerners.

I work with a Thai whose knowledge of English grammar (though not his command of the ins-and-outs of the language ie fluency) is better than mine. It depends on what you want.

I think a larger point to consider is this: if a westerner and a Thai English-speaker were vying for the same teaching post, the native speaker (ie the westerner) would have a better chance of getting it, even if he is a backpacker with no teaching qualifications or skills, and even if the Thai is university-educated with a teaching qualification and/or has spent time in the West.

Is that fair? No. Westerners are taking their jobs.

[chonabot]

I think if both ( Thai/native speaker) had the same qualifications, the native speaker should get the post.

But if the native speaker is not qualified, he would not get to the interview stage, in a reputable organisation at least.

I have applied for enough teaching jobs to know the score in Los.

The point is, if I were in the Uk and wanted to learn Thai, I would always  go to the native speaker, regardless of qualification. It is hard enough to learn a new language ( I can speak 5 passably) without the 2nd hand afflictions inherited by a non-native speaker , teaching their 2nd language.

Being realistic, it will take another 20 years minimum before the teaching situation improves,. This is Thailand after all..

[mrentoul]

I think if both ( Thai/native speaker) had the same qualifications, the native speaker should get the post.

Why? We're guest workers, here, remember? You 're not supposed to be taking workplace skills from a Thai which he could perform himself.

The point is, if I were in the Uk and wanted to learn Thai, I would always  go to the native speaker

Of course you would. So would I. But we are not in the West; we live in Thailand. And if you asked me whether I know any Thais who could teach English as competently as the average backpacker (or even some of the teachers from the West who lob up in Thai schools), then the answer is that I do.

Schools pay so poorly that Thais with good English language skills (which should command a premium) will try their luck elsewhere.

If I was in the West and wanted language lessons I wouldn't, however, go to any native speaker regardless of qualification.

Something is better than nothing, of course, but within a short time the limitations of that approach become all too evident. Some people just don't have teaching in them.

[chonabot]

[Why? We're guest workers, here, remember? You 're not supposed to be taking skills from a Thai which he could perform himself in the workplace.

Because its one of the few jobs that we (guests)can specialize in, teaching is more than a workplace.

Remember if you are taught badly, which will happen if a non-native speaker passes on incorrect grammar etc, it's nigh on impossible to correct these faults at a later stage.

Taksin seems to agree so far, hopefully the requirements/salary will improve eventaully for teaching posts.

Incidently , if you were in the West and wanted to learn a new language, why wouldn't you go to a native speaker?

[mrentoul]

Incidently , if you were in the West and wanted to learn a new language, why wouldn't you go to a native speaker?

I would go to a native speaker, but preferably one who knew what he was doing. You assume Thais can't teach English, or that maybe they can teach but their grasp of English is insufficient.

Because its one of the few jobs that we (guests)can specialize in, teaching is more than a workplace

I am afraid I don't understand you there.

[chonabot]

Because its one of the few jobs that we (guests)can specialize in, teaching is more than a workplace

I am afraid I don't understand you there.

No? a) Teaching English ( as a native speaker) is the only profession that can be undertaken exclusively by native speakers ( guests)

Teaching is more than a workplace....bad grammar..lol

Teaching can't be compared with a normal job, it's a vocation, you are responsible for shaping peoples lives etc....

[mrentoul]

Teaching English ( as a native speaker) is the only profession that can be undertaken exclusively by native speakers ( guests)

So that makes it OK to take other people's jobs?

Teaching can't be compared with a normal job, it's a vocation, you are responsible for shaping peoples lives etc....

All teachers say that, to justify higher pay for themselves. That union-inspired line is as old as the hills.

[chonabot]

Teaching English ( as a native speaker) is the only profession that can be undertaken exclusively by native speakers ( guests)

So that makes it OK to take other people's jobs?

Teaching can't be compared with a normal job, it's a vocation, you are responsible for shaping peoples lives etc....

All teachers say that, to justify higher pay for themselves. That union-inspired line is as old as the hills.

Ummm if the job requires native speakers, its not "their"jobs in the first place.

Since when did teachers get  "higher pay"

Even in the Uk I earned 3 times as much as Uk teachers by working in IT.

Teaching is more stressful than people would care to admit.

Have you experience in this field? ( Teaching)

ps I'm enjoying this debate btw  

[mrentoul]

Ummm if the job requires native speakers, its not "their"jobs in the first place.

I said at the outset that it is a question of what the market wants, and most Thai students appear to prefer westerners for teachers...even the ragtag backpacker sort who have no skills or experience in the area and possibly nothing to offer but their native tongue.

It demeans teaching and teachers alike, and I include Thai teachers in that generalisation. Thais know why the western ''teacher'' (the backpacker sort) is here and I am sure they share the joke.

But your post asked whether native speakers or Thais should teach English in Thailand...and if I there are Thais competent at it, then I think they should get the job. Immigration law would demand nothing less, of course, but wages will have to go up first.

I object to this smug assumption by westerners that only they know English. In truth, teaching allows westerners to work and live in Thailand, which is otherwise all but closed to outsiders unless they are rich. That's why they advance this argument that only they can teach English, and it's rubbish.

Westerners who teach here don't have to be rich, they don't even have to be qualified! Thais have so little confidence with regards to their ability in English that it seems they will accept any rubbish that walks in the door.

But it won't last. Give this country another 10 years and I am sure English standards will have improved. Thai borrows so many English words that the language is almost an English surrogate as it is.

I am enjoying this debate, too, by the way.

[dlfisher]

So that makes it OK to take other people's jobs?

As far as taking other people's jobs goes, yes of course it is. Its called competition. Saying that though, I am saying it based on the fact that the other person is more qualified.

But lets bring up some of the points you two have made for a bit more disection.

On the point that some Thais' have great English. Yes, some do, but lanuguage is, and this is hugely important, more than utterances. It is also cultural. What should also be weighed into the arguement then, when hiring a Thai national vs. Farang, is their exposure to the language. If it was purely in an academic setting and they didn't 'live' with the language for a while, then they will be missing out on a lot of what should be imparted to their students. So then, that means their hiring might depend on who they are teaching. For purely novices or young people, then I don't think the cultural aspects would matter as they wouldn't come into play in the learning process until further down the road

'I think if both ( Thai/native speaker) had the same qualifications, the native speaker should get the post.'

Got to weigh on the side of Mrentoul here. Why does the farang deserve the job more than the Thai? However you can weigh your features at that point, then the best person should get the damned job, period. If the Thai person has done both the work and lived in the atmosphere that made them a truly great and informed English speaker, then they can probably bring more to the table that will benefit their students. Shouldn't the last part always be the goal? Not job protection, not skin color preferences, but effective transmission of valuable knowledge?

[chonabot]

I totally agree, over 80% native-speakers teaching in Thailand are here for one reason, unqualified,unsuitable etc.

It will take a looong time to weed out these wannabes.

I would like to see a Thailand in the future where only qualified native speakers, and good Thai teachers can do their work alongside each other. The percentage depends on

a) getting rid of the chaff

Improved teaching for the Thai "would be" teachers.

Heres hoping...........( if only the lotto numbers came up )

[mrentoul]

####. Two guys who agree with me.

Give me an hour or so and I'll come back with something more provocative!

[wolf5370]

Hi, just to add some fuel to the fire so to speak.

My wifes Aunt is an Thai National who teaches English to Thais at a school in Thailand. She has a University degree in English from a Thai University. She can not understand a word I say in English and I can not understand a word she says either. She was taught by a Thai who was taught by a Thai. Anyone for Chinese Whispers?

[chonabot]

Hi, just to add some fuel to the fire so to speak.

My wifes Aunt is an Thai National who teaches English to Thais at a school in Thailand. She has a University degree in English from a Thai University. She can not understand a word I say in English and I can not understand a word she says either. She was taught by a Thai who was taught by a Thai. Anyone for Chinese Whispers?

Very good point , pity the students, who in turn may become teachers....etc etc ???

[mrentoul]

Very good point , pity the students, who in turn may become teachers

I don't think it's a good point at all. How widespread is that? Who knows. It doesn't change the fact that if you have two similarly qualified and skilled people in a Thai and a westerner, then by law the Thai deserves the job.

In my view he deserves it full stop, never mind the law. In an earlier post chonabot said the westerner should get it, simply because English is his native language. Such arguments are self-serving.

On that basis anyone could walk in the door, and often does, regardless of whether he's qualified to teach or not.

This is a profession whose members are quick to point out that teaching is more than just an ordinary job, that teachers have all those precious young minds to consider and so on.

Yet its own members, represented by teachers working here in Thailand, seem quite happy to let anyone walk in a classroom. You speak English? Fine! Come this way. Most professions have barriers to entry, and for good reason: to keep out rubbish.

Moving on....this bit, from someone else's post, is more promising:

Language is also cultural. What should also be weighed into the arguement then, when hiring a Thai national vs. Farang, is their exposure to the language

Agreed. People bring more to the classroom than their grammar skills.

If the Thai person has done both the work and lived in the atmosphere that made them a truly great and informed English speaker, then they can probably bring more to the table that will benefit their students.

And this is where the balance (again) tips in favour of Thais. Just how well can a westerner relate to a class whose first language is not English? I am surprised at how little the language barrier is brought up on this forum (and the other one at tithailand).

While it's interesting, I am sure, for students to get exposure to western ideas through their western teacher, it's a fair bet that the western teacher will have a poor grasp of Thai culture and customs.

Relating one back to the other might be a challenge...but then, he's just a farang, right? No one expects too much of westerners in a classroom...and that goes for both sides, sadly, Thais and westerners alike.

[chonabot]

Very good points on both sides.....I'm all argued out.....

I do think the teaching in the countryside ( in terms of English Teachers ) is a long way behind Bkk, but funnily enough the schools here are very strict in terms of qualifications required for farang teachers, probably because they are state run.

[Roger13]

She can not understand a word I say in English and I can not understand a word she says either.

In my opinion - the above quote is not a reliable

measure of someones English Capability.

Try communicating with this person by writing

- you MIGHT get quite a good opinion.

It might not be her knowledge of English that

is lacking - but rather differences in accent.

Many times I have this problem with Thai and Indian friends.

If they send me e-mail or SMS - their English is quite high Standard - but when speaking - sometimes they have to

spell the word. Or I have to repeat what I am saying many times. Write it down - no problem.

Cultural differences is also a very important consideration.

Just consider an Englishman teaching English in America

and for example teaches Bonnet & Boot for front and back of a Car (Americans say Hood & Trunk - hope I got those the right way round!!)

In India what I call "Trousers" - Indians call "Pants"

To me "Pants" are underwear.

So the correct words in local usage have to be known

otherwise the local who is being taught the "English" word

will not be able to communicate with a local who has been taught the "local" word.

Hopefully this is all obvious - to those who are aware.

But maybe not to some of those advocating

Native speaking Teachers

Roger

[chonabot]

Another point, I have met Thai's with very good written English, their understanding of English literature is also very good. It's the confidence they are lacking, in Thai High Schools, the curriculum veers away from the spoken word.

Therefore you can find Thai students with a degree in English, who cannot communicate with a 10 year old native speaker.

Perhaps the "loss of face" also plays a part in this?

[Roger13]

She can not understand a word I say in English and I can not understand a word she says either.

Come to think of it - the above applies to ME

(a Londoner) - when I meet someone from Liverpool or Glasgow !!!!

Hi Chonabot,

Something we agree on ????

Written English (did you see my previous post?)

- we were obviously both Typing the same

thought at the same time!

Roger

[mrentoul]

I do think the teaching in the countryside ( in terms of English Teachers ) is a long way behind Bkk, but funnily enough the schools here are very strict in terms of qualifications required for farang teachers, probably because they are state run.

Where there is a need for English teachers, schools should have the flexibility to offer more pay to attract decent ones. I don't know if westerners need a rural-wage premium to teach in the country: probably not, as most seem to hate Bangkok.

That said, I can imagine that English teaching in the provinces might be a long way behind Bangkok (I don't know). I feel sorry for those students who want to learn but aren't offered much in the way of hope by their schools.

I know there are kids out there who want to learn English. Sometimes students get into English through small ''hooks'': I know one Bangkok boy who loves theatre and dance. His dream is to see the Sydney Opera House one day.

I asked him once about the SOH. He knew a surprising amount, even its history, which he had read on websites and in books written in English. Reading that material can't have been easy for him, but his interest in dance/theatre gave him the motivation he needed.

[grtaylor]

If you are taught by a native english speaker, then you may acquire a good accent (depending on what particular native English accent it is!), but what you don't get, unless the teacher is a qualified and experienced ESL teacher, is an understanding of the grammar, and why ESL students find the language difficult.  One of the best ESL teachers at my school is a german (with a degree in English), who really understands the problems of learning English!

Its high time that the language schools were put under the same rules as the international schools (i.e. teachers require a degree, certification and experience for a work permit), and that, in order to attract well-qualified and experienced teachers, they started paying them a realistic (in foreign terms) salary.  You can earn twice as much for the same job in Vietnam, but, only with the right qualifications.

[mrentoul]

what you don't get, unless the teacher is a qualified and experienced ESL teacher, is an understanding of the grammar, and why ESL students find the language difficult.  One of the best ESL teachers at my school is a german (with a degree in English), who really understands the problems of learning English!

Good point. A Thai guy I work with tells me often how complicated English is. He's a former teacher and now fixes the English is news stories, just as I do.

Being a native English speaker I know little of these things.

He often makes the point about grammar when he is correcting some misunderstanding of mine.

[wolf5370]

Sorry guys don't get your arguement. If they can read and write English, but can't speak it well enough to either understand or be understood, then this makes them an acceptable teacher in that language?

Surely that just propergates the language problem.

How widespread is that?

Er, I would have though very common. How many native English teachers to Thai English teachers are there (ratio?). Especially outside of the main 3 Uni's.

Personally, I agree that the teacher should be qualified (ESOL/EFL etc), but I still think you can't beat a native speaker. In schools all across the UK, many French teachers are French (or from French speaking countries). There is nothing wrong in hiring the best people for the job. Hiring only your own native people sounds great, but in reality is stiffling and perpetuates problems like pronounciation.

When I learn Thai I want a native Thai teacher. Simple.

Equally qualified - not possible. Same paperwork, sure, but equal? If I had a degree in Thai, I still don't think I could compare to a native speaker - even one that does not hold the degree.

I do not buy into this, I want to be educated properly, I want my children educated properly. Do Thais want/deserve any different? Is it the teachers that 'deserve' the job because of their nationailty or the students that 'deserve' the best education their hard earned money can raise? Let the politians play politics; let education be the best it can with politics aside.

[mrentoul]

Do Thais want/deserve any different? Is it the teachers that 'deserve' the job because of their nationailty or the students that 'deserve' the best education their hard earned money can raise?

Ultimately it's not your call to make, but the government's. Thais with training in English and teaching might like a job in their own country, thanks very much, regardless of where you'd like to send your children.

If the Thai doesn't measure up to a candidate from the West seeking the same job, and if there's no one better, than hopefully the school will have the flexibility to pick the better candidate ie the native English speaker. Presumably that's why westerners are able to work here: they fill a need that the local market in particular places or segments cannot.

It is not a debate about the purity of education versus the muddiness of politics. It's about the law (I thought it was, anyway); and presented with two *equally talented* candidates in a Thai and a westerner, the Thai should always get the job.

A native English speaker from another land cannot get precedence simply because English is his native language. On that basis he could walk into any teaching job in any country where English is a second language, regardless of the local talent on offer.

I suspect that smuggled into this debate is a few assumptions people are making about Thais, which I think are unjustified: that they can't teach or speak decent English.

Some people think they deserve a Thai's job no matter who the Thai is, simply because they are from the West. It doesn't work like that.

[LPCustom69]

A lot of valid points made on both sides so far. But if you learn english from a thai who learned from a thai, you will not be very good. Sorry, about that!! But if the PM wants a better quality english teacher, to help the thais compete in the global economy, then he is going to have to encourage more money for qualified candidates.

[wolf5370]

Thank you LPCustom69, my point exactly (if worded more succinctly).

Mrentoul, It not “my” kids I was talking about. It was the children of Thai nationally that deserve the best education their government can provide. I simply do not think there are enough Thai national teachers skilled in English that are of a high enough quality to populate every English class across Thailand. I am not saying they can’t learn English as well as a native English speaker – I’ll reserve judgement on that. If more Thais learn from native English speakers then maybe there will be a generation of Thai Teachers that fit the bill.

I am not against your statement that with equally qualified candidates the Thai should get it – if nothing else this would be cheaper for the school. I just include the ability to talk and understand the language you are teaching to be integral in ‘qualifications’ and not just paperwork. Though this is tested in their degrees, unless the university has a native English teacher or a Thai that has lived in the west long enough to speak/understand (D80 for example) or possibly a Thai taught by a native English speaker, then how likely is it that they can speak/understand well enough?

To say “It is not a debate about the purity of education versus the muddiness of politics” after stating that “Ultimately it's not your call to make, but the government's” is kind of contradictory. However, we have been down this road before on earlier posts. This is a forum – a discussion board – the point is to have an open discussion and/or debate. Why must it always turn into personal jibes ‘your kids’ and ‘I suspect that smuggled into this debate is a few assumptions people are making about Thais, which I think are unjustified: that they can't teach or speak decent English’, and attempts to cut the discussion off with one line ‘its not up to you anyway’ drivel is diametrically opposed to the point of this medium.

I am most certainly not racist against Thais, as insinuated (or anyone else for that). I have far more Thai friends than I do western.

How about some Thai views: D80 would you rather your kids taught English by someone who is a native English speaker or by an equally lettered Thai who can’t?