How Can I Overcome My Inability To Establish A Correct Sitting Posture?

[rockyysdt]

My biggest dilemma, currently affecting my formal contemplative practice, has been my inability to establish a correct sitting posture.

In my earlier years, I was taught that it was quite acceptable for westerners to sit comfortably in a simple chair.

I persevered for awhile but without any apparent progress.

Not satisfied with this I experimented with variations of the lotus position.

A Japanese Buddhist Master advised me that mastering the sitting position was vital to ones practice.

He indicated that a sound foundation and straight back were essential and anything short of this was a waste of time.

On a recent trip to Thailand I noticed that villagers seemed to be able to naturally achieve the lotus position with a straight back.

Try as I may I found it impossible to achieve even a half lotus without much pain and distress, even after daily exercises designed to stretch my leg muscles and groin ligaments over 8 months. I've also learned that we're all physically quite different and my body type can't easily achieve a comfortable sitting position.

A book I recently read called "The Posture of Meditation" teaches that being at one with the forces of gravity and sitting in deep relaxation and resilience naturally silences the mind. Conversely a stressed body causes many thoughts to run wildly in the mind.

My temporary solution has been to practice lying on my back.

This allows me to be in balance with gravity and be able to concentrate on letting go.

It has also left me free from cramping and muscle tension and I can achieve deep levels of stillness and relaxation.

I understand practising on my back severely limits my potential for enlightenment and that a straight upright back is essential to my practise.

I've experimented with various cushions and padded mats but I still remain in the wilderness when it comes to achieving a traditional sitting position with any level of comfort.

My situation also affects my ability to join retreats and other group activities.

Have others had similar experiences?

How should I overcome my dilemma?

[IMA_FARANG]

My biggest dilemma, currently affecting my formal contemplative practice, has been my inability to establish a correct sitting posture.

In my earlier years, I was taught that it was quite acceptable for westerners to sit comfortably in a simple chair.

I persevered for awhile but without any apparent progress.

Not satisfied with this I experimented with variations of the lotus position.

A Japanese Buddhist Master advised me that mastering the sitting position was vital to ones practice.

He indicated that a sound foundation and straight back were essential and anything short of this was a waste of time.

On a recent trip to Thailand I noticed that villagers seemed to be able to naturally achieve the lotus position with a straight back.

Try as I may I found it impossible to achieve even a half lotus without much pain and distress, even after daily exercises designed to stretch my leg muscles and groin ligaments over 8 months. I've also learned that we're all physically quite different and my body type can't easily achieve a comfortable sitting position.

A book I recently read called "The Posture of Meditation" teaches that being at one with the forces of gravity and sitting in deep relaxation and resilience naturally silences the mind. Conversely a stressed body causes many thoughts to run wildly in the mind.

My temporary solution has been to practice lying on my back.

This allows me to be in balance with gravity and be able to concentrate on letting go.

It has also left me free from cramping and muscle tension and I can achieve deep levels of stillness and relaxation.

I understand practising on my back severely limits my potential for enlightenment and that a straight upright back is essential to my practise.

I've experimented with various cushions and padded mats but I still remain in the wilderness when it comes to achieving a traditional sitting position with any level of comfort.

My situation also affects my ability to join retreats and other group activities.

Have others had similar experiences?

How should I overcome my dilemma?

Believe it or not there are traditions where you can practice walking meditation. Sitting is not required. I am sort of a heretic according to other Buddhist traditions as I practice Zen.

The position isn't critical. If you can't do the lotus position, I would say just take whatever position is comfortable for you.

You might find it helpful to try counting and concentrating on your breath. Put your attention on feeling yourself inhale and exhale. That may help you forget the discomfort of sitting continously.

But my suggestion is that if you can't practice sitting meditation, then practice walking meditation.

[Brucenkhamen]

When I started practice I was under the impression that everybody sat in full or half lotus. At my first retreat I sat in the front row in half lotus and persevered with it for several days, at one point I felt I needed a rest and sat at the back on a chair, I was surprised at all the various postures and walls of cushions and stools I saw, I had no idea what was going on behind me.

Learning correct posture does help though, if for no other reason that the body tells the mind that now is meditation time.

Since then I learned that half lotus isn't really necessary, I sit in Burmese (aka Parrallel) posture as this is just as good but without the strain, it looks similar but one leg is in front of the other not on top.

There are 2-3 yoga execises that I practiced daily for a couple of months and before long I was sitting like a professional.

How old are you? Have you any medical conditions in your back or legs?

Unless you are in middle age or have medical conditions you should be able to do it too.

It's difficult to describe the exersizes, I'll try and find instructions on the net and let you know.

[Brucenkhamen]

This URL has instructions on the two exersizes I mentioned, I can't find one with pictures http://everything2.com/e2node/Stretching%2...us%2520position

This URL has info on the Burmese posture which I think is as good as either Lotus pose and easier on the legs but perhaps harder on the back http://www.dharmafield.org/medinstonline.htm

Edited May 19, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[rockyysdt]

When I started practice I was under the impression that everybody sat in full or half lotus. At my first retreat I sat in the front row in half lotus and persevered with it for several days, at one point I felt I needed a rest and sat at the back on a chair, I was surprised at all the various postures and walls of cushions and stools I saw, I had no idea what was going on behind me.

Learning correct posture does help though, if for no other reason that the body tells the mind that now is meditation time.

Since then I learned that half lotus isn't really necessary, I sit in Burmese (aka Parrallel) posture as this is just as good but without the strain, it looks similar but one leg is in front of the other not on top.

There are 2-3 yoga execises that I practiced daily for a couple of months and before long I was sitting like a professional.

How old are you? Have you any medical conditions in your back or legs?

Unless you are in middle age or have medical conditions you should be able to do it too.

It's difficult to describe the exersizes, I'll try and find instructions on the net and let you know.

Thanks Bruce.

I feel that once I resolve my posture I can accelerate my practice.

I'm 54, 171cm, and 67kg.

My symptoms include pins and needles, numbness, and the feeling that my circulation is being cut off.

I'll study the information you've posted.

I appreciate your experience and knowledge.

[rockyysdt]

Believe it or not there are traditions where you can practice walking meditation. Sitting is not required. I am sort of a heretic according to other Buddhist traditions as I practice Zen.

The position isn't critical. If you can't do the lotus position, I would say just take whatever position is comfortable for you.

You might find it helpful to try counting and concentrating on your breath. Put your attention on feeling yourself inhale and exhale. That may help you forget the discomfort of sitting continously.

But my suggestion is that if you can't practice sitting meditation, then practice walking meditation.

Hi IMA

I appreciate you sharing your technique with me.

I plan to incorporate this into my practice.

I spoke to a Monk on a recent trip to North East Thailand who offered the following advice.

"Your path to enlightenment should include Selfless Charity, Contemplation, & Mindfulness".

I'll be including a type of walking meditation by practicing minfulness during my wakeful hours.

[lost_in_space]

There is a set of stretches to help you with your sitting position. I read it in a yoga book. The section of the book dealing with this is called "how to grow a lotus." It had about ten stretches that helped me a lot.

lotus

Like IMA, i suggest comfort is paramount. Also, be careful about your knees. It took me years to get over a sore knee I got at a 30 day retreat.

[garro]

I think the main thing is to be careful and not push yourself too much. As mentioned above you don't want to hurt your knees or your back. I have been meditating since my early teens, and I'm quite flexible, but my problem is I sometimes start slouching while meditating. The stretching above sounds like a good idea.

I have seen Zen meditators use these special stools that go under your knees and you lean back on - sort of like kneeling. Maybe this could work for you. I met a guy on a retreat who had one and claimed it worked with his bad back. See the image below.

Edited May 19, 2008 by garro

[rockyysdt]

There is a set of stretches to help you with your sitting position. I read it in a yoga book. The section of the book dealing with this is called "how to grow a lotus." It had about ten stretches that helped me a lot.

lotus

Like IMA, i suggest comfort is paramount. Also, be careful about your knees. It took me years to get over a sore knee I got at a 30 day retreat.

Thanks Lost.

I practiced such stretches faithfully on a daily basis for 8 months.

The result was very sore groin ligaments and resulted in painful walking and jogging.

I had to give it away.

I'm very mindful of causing injury as at my age recovery can take a long time.

Edited May 19, 2008 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

I have seen Zen meditators use these special stools that go under your knees and you lean back on - sort of like kneeling. Maybe this could work for you. I met a guy on a retreat who had one and claimed it worked with his bad back. See the image below.

The ergonomics on your illustration look ideal.

Knees below the hips, and straight self supported back.

Do you have any sources or a more explicit view of this stool?

I'd love to buy or make one to test.

Edited May 19, 2008 by rockyysdt

[garro]

I have seen Zen meditators use these special stools that go under your knees and you lean back on - sort of like kneeling. Maybe this could work for you. I met a guy on a retreat who had one and claimed it worked with his bad back. See the image below.

The ergonomics on your illustration look ideal.

Knees below the hips, and straight self supported back.

Do you have any sources or a more explicit view of this stool?

I'd love to buy or make one to test.

Hi Rockyysdt, I just googled 'zen meditation stool'.

There are lots of hits for this, but yes if you could get the specs you might get one made here cheaply..

Edited May 19, 2008 by garro

[Brucenkhamen]

Thanks Bruce.

I feel that once I resolve my posture I can accelerate my practice.

I'm 54, 171cm, and 67kg.

My symptoms include pins and needles, numbness, and the feeling that my circulation is being cut off.

I'll study the information you've posted.

I appreciate your experience and knowledge.

I think at your age unless you have done a lot of yoga and sitting in the past you shouldn't be aiming for half or full lotus.

Burmese posture or meditation stools or a chair would be better for you, you can alternate between them each sitting. hese stools are very common in the west but I find them worse than Burmese posture as I've got to the stage where I'm very comfortable in the former.

Having said that if all you are getting is pins and needles, numbness, and the feeling that my circulation is being cut off then you are doing pretty well, or not sitting much, these are pretty mild symptoms.

The best rule of thumb is after you stand up and walk around for a few minutes have the symptoms disappeared? If so this is what we call meditation pain, you can't damage yourself and should learn to experience the discomfort with equanimity. If the pain persists you need to back off, try other postures, do stretches, moderate your practice so you don't do any damage.

[EastSaxCol]

My biggest dilemma, currently affecting my formal contemplative practice, has been my inability to establish a correct sitting posture.

I've known of some severely disabled people who adapt according to their situations. Surely Buddhist practice is no different ?

Edited May 20, 2008 by Happy Hammer

[rockyysdt]

My biggest dilemma, currently affecting my formal contemplative practice, has been my inability to establish a correct sitting posture.

I've known of some severely disabled people who adapt according to their situations. Surely Buddhist practice is no different ?

Hi Happy.

If you practise meditation for relaxation purposes then posture needn't be an issue.

My understanding is that correct posture is important if the aim is enlightenment.

Practise may involve many years.

Taking time to achieve a personal optimal posture can be very worthwhile.

Networking with others is my way of adapting.

[lost_in_space]

The Zen stool is called a "seiza bench." I made one myself back in the day.

[sleepyjohn]

"I understand practising on my back severely limits my potential for enlightenment....."

If you think of meditation as a way to enlightenment aren't you widening the perceived distance between where you are now and where you want to be?

ps: If you would like to meditate you might try kneeling with three, then later two, firm cushions between your legs jockey style. If you sit half lotus your bum should be higher than your knees and all three points should touch the ground like a tripod. If your bum is too low in either position the lower back muscles will eventually start straining to keep your back straight.

[rockyysdt]

If you think of meditation as a way to enlightenment aren't you widening the perceived distance between where you are now and where you want to be?

I'm not sure what you mean sleepy?

I know meditation is not the only way, but I've chosen it as one of my means.

Would be interested in hearing more from you.

[CuriousGeorge77]

Check out the Alexander Technique.  It is essentially for stage actors but it has been expanded and the fundamental philosophy is sound, and, IMHO, quite in line with Buddhism.  

The idea that each person has a mental map of the way their body is,  and that is not always accurate.  This part has been well established by neurophysiologists.  We all create these maps and we move our bodies according to the maps.  The idea of the Alexander Technique is simple:  adjust your mental map to fit reality.  

One example of a common misconception is the shape of the foot.  Functionally, skeletally speaking, the foot is shaped like an arch,  and the pressure of the body is placed on the top of the arch.  Pressure should go into the floor equally at the ball and the heel.  Many people have the idea that the foot is shaped like an 'L' - it is very difficult to balance on an 'L' an upside down 'T' is much easier, and thats what you have.  

Alsother common misconceoption, especially in the West, is that there is something called a shoulder.  Functionally,  there is no such thing.  Functionally, the arm includes the collarbone (which is not connected to the spine or anything else by any joint)  if you put your left hand on your right collarbone,  and then move your right arm forward, you will feel what I mean.  There is a shoulder joint,  but its not a ball joint,  and if you want to raise your arm in the air it is your collarbone that you have to move.  

One thing that may be impairing your progress is the idea of keeping your spine straight.  keeping your spine straight is physically painful - the spine itself is made to curve and bend.  Instead,  think of keeping your spine at balance - so that certain points are resting directly above other certain points (you can learn more about this on google)  Changing terminology alone can be incredibly useful.  One thing I've noticed since taking hte class on Alexander Technique is that meditation forms are all at balance,  and they don't feel right when you are not at balance.  

Of course,  some people are built differently,  some 10% of people have hip bone shapes that make sitting on hard surfaces quite painful - basically just a ittle bone spur right where you sit at.  (They are fine with a pillow)  But you will still have a balance points, assuming you are not particularly assymetrical.  People can tell you what is typical,  but nobody knows but you what is truly at balance.

Regarding myself,  I've noticed is that I now walk much more easily, and the occaisional pain in my legs and arms has gone away, now that I am in the process of correcting my inaccurate mental maps. I move much more gracefully as well  As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of it, as it has made some direct and big changes in my life (there are others I haven't mentioned) You can find lots of information if you google "Alexander Technique" and/or "body mapping"

[appleman]

Try a simple straight backed wooden chair. As long as your spine is straight, not tilting forward or back, then you will be fine. I have been meditating for 40 years and have never been able to sit in a lotus or even half lotus position. When I studied Zen we used a "zafu" or rounded cushion that helped but now that I am older the chair works fine. In the zen tradition another word for meditation is "sitting". Good luck in your sitting.

[sabaijai]

If you read the Mahasatipatthana Sutta you'll note that it says mindfulness can be practiced in its fullness in any posture, whether lying, sitting, standing, walking etc. It is said that the Buddha attained enlightenment not while he was sitting, but as he was standing up

[CuriousGeorge77]

The Mahasatipatthana Sutta can be read here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html

[chutai]

If you read the Mahasatipatthana Sutta you'll note that it says mindfulness can be practiced in its fullness in any posture, whether lying, sitting, standing, walking etc. It is said that the Buddha attained enlightenment not while he was sitting, but as he was standing up

Although varying from vipassana slightly, it has been said that it's what's in the heart that matters most.

After all the three manifestations of Buddhist practice are said to be Courage, Compassion and Wisdom. I would think that correct posture has more to do with yogic practice than Buddhism. But if one can maintain a straight spine all the better. If not , any transormation of the mind surely won't be unduly impeded.

[rockyysdt]

Burmese posture or meditation stools or a chair would be better for you, you can alternate between them each sitting. hese stools are very common in the west but I find them worse than Burmese posture as I've got to the stage where I'm very comfortable in the former.

Thanks Bruce.

I gave the Burmese position a go.

It must be my body shape but I can't get comfortable or relaxed. Also my knees are well off the floor even with cushions so I don't achieve the sturdy three pointed foundation.

On Garro & Lost in Space's recommendations I built a "seiza chair".

The snaps attached show my prototype model with a single coat of tung oil. After oiling with three coats I'll finish with bees wax. It features brass hinges allowing the legs to fold for storage and carrying.

I find this chair terrific.

It takes the weight off my legs/knees.

My back feels straight and well supported.

My chest is opened out and my posture feels relaxed and balanced with gravity.

On my production model I'll add 2.5cms to the height of the legs.

I also plan to fit a piece of sorbethane to the seat for insulation and further support.

I plan to place 2cm thick square metre piece of sorbethane on the floor underneath the chair to minimise discomfort to the legs.

Sorbethane is the material used by sports shoe makers to provide shock absorption in their runners.

ll no longer have excuses for skipping sittings.

I'm previleged to have THAI TV's Buddhist inhabitants as a resource.

[Sidris]

Asian bodies are different than Westerners.

To think you will attain enlightment by trying to sit like an Asian is ludicrus and borderline heresy.

You need to make yourself comfortable first and then you may have some enlightening thoughts.

I'm not saying buy a lazy boy recliner for mediatation, but find a "nuetral" and austere postion to sit.

[camerata]

To think you will attain enlightment by trying to sit like an Asian is ludicrus and borderline heresy.

He isn't trying to sit like an Asian to attain enlightenment, he's trying to sit in the way meditation masters advise is best for meditation.

Heresy?

[2Da1]

To think you will attain enlightment by trying to sit like an Asian is ludicrus and borderline heresy.

He isn't trying to sit like an Asian to attain enlightenment, he's trying to sit in the way meditation masters advise is best for meditation.

Heresy?

LOL. Keej. However. Practise is the key. Not you posture. If a posture does not feel right go to another one.

Then : meditate!

The theoretical side to meditation is way overrated. One needs to practice, contemplate and examine oneself to find out who or what you are.

Funny text I found on this matter concerning Ajahn Chah :

When Ajahn Chah went to England, to the British Buddhist Society, he met one day an old, very proper British woman who had been many years in this society and she was asking him many questions about the Abi Dharma and all of these things.

And he looked at her and he said "Do you meditate?".

And she said "Well, I studied so many of the texts and met these teachers ..." and so forth....

And he asked "What is your practise?"

And she said "Well, I've been studying and learning,..."

And he looked at her and he said :

"Lady, you're like a woman who keeps chickens in the yard and she's going around picking up the shit instead of the eggs. You missed the eggs. Your picking up the wrong piece. Let go of that."

Source : Luminous Inspirations website

[camerata]

You missed the best part. At the end of the talk, Ajahn Chah said something like, "I'm sorry if I spoke harshly to you, but the Buddha told me to say that!" I think the story comes from Venerable Father.

[IMA_FARANG]

To think you will attain enlightment by trying to sit like an Asian is ludicrus and borderline heresy.

He isn't trying to sit like an Asian to attain enlightenment, he's trying to sit in the way meditation masters advise is best for meditation.

Heresy?

LOL. Keej. However. Practise is the key. Not you posture. If a posture does not feel right go to another one.

Then : meditate!

The theoretical side to meditation is way overrated. One needs to practice, contemplate and examine oneself to find out who or what you are.

Funny text I found on this matter concerning Ajahn Chah :

When Ajahn Chah went to England, to the British Buddhist Society, he met one day an old, very proper British woman who had been many years in this society and she was asking him many questions about the Abi Dharma and all of these things.

And he looked at her and he said "Do you meditate?".

And she said "Well, I studied so many of the texts and met these teachers ..." and so forth....

And he asked "What is your practise?"

And she said "Well, I've been studying and learning,..."

And he looked at her and he said :

"Lady, you're like a woman who keeps chickens in the yard and she's going around picking up the shit instead of the eggs. You missed the eggs. Your picking up the wrong piece. Let go of that."

Source : Luminous Inspirations website

Meaning no offense about meditation, but here is a poem to consider:

Those who sit all day and meditate, but will not lie down,

And dead men who lie down, but cannot sit up,

Now what are they both but rotting corpses?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no enlightenment outside of daily life.

Thich Nhat Hanh.

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Although it is all too clear

Sometimes it takes time to grasp it.

When you understand that it's foolish

to go looking for fire with fire,

Your meal is already cooked.

Wu-men

Edited July 9, 2008 by IMA_FARANG