Upgrade 'thor Bor 5' To 'nor Sor 3'

[frankman]

I would like to upgrade some land from 'Thor Bor 5' to 'Nor Sor 3' on Koh Phangan and asked around but they were all way out of line with their prices. Anybody knows the REAL price? All the borders are Chanot allready. Thanks!

[stonybonytony]

If by 'Thor bor 5' you mean PBT5 (por bor tor 5) then I believe this land cannot be legally upgraded to NS3 - PBT5 land is owned by the government and land documents issued in relation to it give the right to farm the land but do not transfer ownership. The lowest level of land that is owned and can be upgraded is SK1. I think the 'sale' of PBT5 land to farang is not uncommon without any explanation of its status.

However, I believe that this 'upgrade' whilst not strictly legal does happen - though as it is illegal, there remains the possibility that a subsequent investigation will result in the removal of the illegally upgraded land - and I suspect this may be the reason for the wide range of quotes you have received, as they reflect the level of incentive required to induce someone at the land office to issue the papers.

If thor bor 5 is not pbt5, then I am curious as to what it is as I have not come across this before.

[Boater]

as the above posts mentions, you cannot upgrade this Land Title ( with a little or a lot of Tea Money, maybe you can )

Your best bet is to contact a lawyer to seek advise and to clarify the exact title you have.

[BL4u]

Frankman: Don't be naive. Go to the first bar and drink a Singha. Really, a lot of experienced land trading foreigners lost a lot of money with Tor Bor Ha land.

Edited May 19, 2008 by BL4u

[frankman]

Thanks for your concern, but I talked to lawyers already and they said; it is possible but.... and than came up with a way too high price. I work now with a company and they want to do it by the book and will cost much less but takes a lot of time. But thank you for your thoughts!

[Lite Beer]

My Wife tells me you cannot. But some money in the right place.....maybe.

[BL4u]

Thanks for your concern, but I talked to lawyers already and they said; it is possible but.... and than came up with a way too high price. I work now with a company and they want to do it by the book and will cost much less but takes a lot of time. But thank you for your thoughts!

This is how it usually goes: You will probably meet someone with connections at the land office, but to get it upgraded you must pay a percentage of what the land would be worth if it was upgraded. You pay because you think you are going to make money with this upgrade and this (briberies) is how things go in Thailand. Then you have to be patient because it can't be upgraded directly (there are many excuses to keep you waiting). After a long wait you start realizing that it will never be upgraded. If you become too loud they will send the police after you because you tried to bribe a land official or worse. It is a scam and whatever you pay after this you will loose too, but maybe you are lucky...

[Nirvana]

Thanks for your concern, but I talked to lawyers already and they said; it is possible but.... and than came up with a way too high price. I work now with a company and they want to do it by the book and will cost much less but takes a lot of time. But thank you for your thoughts!

This is how it usually goes: You will probably meet someone with connections at the land office, but to get it upgraded you must pay a percentage of what the land would be worth if it was upgraded. You pay because you think you are going to make money with this upgrade and this (briberies) is how things go in Thailand. Then you have to be patient because it can't be upgraded directly (there are many excuses to keep you waiting). After a long wait you start realizing that it will never be upgraded. If you become too loud they will send the police after you because you tried to bribe a land official or worse. It is a scam and whatever you pay after this you will loose too, but maybe you are lucky...

why buy it in the first place ?

[frankman]

The company I am working with has done it bevor, and if the borders are all chanot, the goverment has no access to the land anymore, and for that reason it should be possible if the other landowners agree to the nnew borders, but we will see. And for NIRVANA: We didn't buy it, no worries. We just want to live on it.

[nod]

The company I am working with has done it bevor, and if the borders are all chanot, the goverment has no access to the land anymore, and for that reason it should be possible if the other landowners agree to the nnew borders, but we will see. And for NIRVANA: We didn't buy it, no worries. We just want to live on it.

If you can have access to it, the government can and will have access to it if they want to.

Cheers and good luck. You may well need it.

[highdiver]

you can not upgrade TB5 to a proper land title. as TB5 is a possessors claim to use government land for farming purposes. who ever told you you can do it legally is scamming you.

if you want to know the truth about TB5 then go to the land office .. go up to the second floor and see the DSI investigation team. they speak very good English and can show you in English the Thai law regarding those lands.

they can also tell you about all the cases that Thai and foreigner were led to believe they could buy it and upgrade it only to find out that they were scammed.

[smartiemarty]

Hey frankman,

Just to save you some hassle and heartache.

I "purchased" some PTBH land in koh phangan on the advice of a "reputable" land company in koh Phangan, and i asked "are you sure you can upgrade?" "yes - no problem we do it all the time" i was told. The company said that it would take 5 months as it has land with the title of Nor sor sam bordering on it, it would be no problem.

I paid money for the "Upgrade" (supposedly just to bump it up the huge line waiting for upgrade!, ie to the top of the pile.), and money for the land office to survey it, no problems there, they confirmed that it met all the criteria for the upgrade, ie not too steep, has coconut, mango, Banana etc etc on it (so not "Raw" jungle - or worse national park!), nor sor sam on the border.... The land office officials agreed it could be "upgraded" , and guess what.... 4.5 years later i am still waiting.....

Luckily i am very good friends with the original owner, (who also tried upgrading his remaining PTBH land with the same company, - on my recommendation i might add! 20 odd rai x XXX Baht - money he could ill afford.), and we are now trying to recover the costs from the land company and sort the whole mess out. The owner doesn't have all of the money i paid to him (a lot of it went on HIS upgrade costs), but we will work something out eventually, i'm not in a hurry but one day i might have to write the whole lot off, just have to wait and see. (hehe am i an eternal optimist or what?)

Sure i expect to lose some money on this fiasco but i might recover the bulk of it. hey, life's a risk, what can you do.

My biggest mistake was believing the land company who gave me the advice and not checking it out with an independent lawyer, thai visa etc, and now funnily enough the company don't seem too keen to help me sort it out.....

Right Now I am not prepared to to disclose to the whole world who the company is (so don't ask!), as i am still trying to recover some of the costs, however if unsuccessful then i might be persuaded. (no malicious intentions of course. - just trying to save some others from believing some bad advice from the same people.)

Would i do it again? Nah..... I learnt my lesson....

Mate save yourself the hassle and don't bother unless it costs you NOTHING and you are prepared to wait a VERY VERY long time.

[frankman]

Hello NOD, I have the goverment ok. , but the guys, who are going to survey the land want money, why? All the borders are fully ok. with the other landowners. The land is 'lost' to the goverment anyway, because only our family owns the land around it. so?

[goldfinger]

one question:If all surrounding plots are already Chanot Land Titles, why is it necessary to send surveyors.

This plot is already fixed in his borders through the neighbour borders.

Anyone else which has experience with PBT5 land.??

(i know, my father in law has this kind of land, paying an annual fee of some hundred bahts.

Now he wanted to share among his children, but the land office didnt cut the plot as the father wanted, but gave it to only one child.Is this usual??)

Edited May 20, 2008 by goldfinger

[ClaudeFeller]

one question:If all surrounding plots are already Chanot Land Titles, why is it necessary to send surveyors.

This plot is already fixed in his borders through the neighbour borders.

Anyone else which has experience with PBT5 land.??

(i know, my father in law has this kind of land, paying an annual fee of some hundred bahts.

Now he wanted to share among his children, but the land office didnt cut the plot as the father wanted, but gave it to only one child.Is this usual??)

The Landoffice doesnt give land to sb, only your father in law can decide this!

Frankman, can you please carefully read the previous posts? "Just to save you some hassle and heartache...."

[frankman]

Thanks to all. But don't worry, it will cost me not too much, I hope, and if it's possible to upgrade I will let you know. I just want to upgrade it, because we want to build up there. And if we have nothing, we have a lot of time. Let's see and wait...

[highdiver]

Thanks to all. But don't worry, it will cost me not too much, I hope, and if it's possible to upgrade I will let you know. I just want to upgrade it, because we want to build up there. And if we have nothing, we have a lot of time. Let's see and wait...

don't say you were not warned.

Sor Kor 1, Tor Bor 5, Sor Por Gor 4, which cover large areas of Samui and Thailand, are essential possessory rights which have been filed with the districts office (not the Land Office) and upon which a small fee has been paid. Generally used for farming. Transfer of ownership of these land claims (or lease) can NOT be registered with the relevant authority, the Land Office. It is common practice for farmers to build their home on such land, however, no official permission and building permits are granted for such land claims. Transfer of possision or use of such land claims is governed by, say, local customs and by handshakes. Legally the transfer process is not more than handing over the notification form and possession or use of the land from one person to another. There are practically no rights associated with these land claims.

Land with a proper title has many, many times the value of land without a title. It is in certain circumstances possible to upgrade land from title-less to a regular land title deed. Converting land from title-less to properly-titled land is one of the easiest ways in the kingdom to make a lot of money fast, and in Samui, as a result of corruption activities on the island, large areas of title-less land (including forest land) have been upgraded illegally and/or ownership papers have been falsified or illegally issued. Influential locals and corrupt officials got rich quick in Samui land scams. The whole administration of land is a mess and the recent land scams in Samui are the inevitable result.

In 2004/ 2005 a number of foreign investors made deals with corrupt local officials that areas of title-less land would be upgraded to properly titled land for development. With the right connections at the Land Office and large bribes this used to be common practice in Samui. At the start of the crackdown on this practice in 2005 the corrupt Land Office officials were removed, however, the foreign investors who already paid for worthless land lost millions.

Land papers upgrading

Bangkok Post, September 12 2005; 'Land authorities will not issue title deeds to holders of Tor Bor Ha / Sor Por Gor or Bor Por Tor land right documents on Samui island. Charoen Chanparn, of Surat Thani land office, said the office has told local leaders in all tambons on the island to survey the land plots and see which kind of land documents have been issued in their villages. Only holders of Sor Khor 1 and Nor Sor 3 land ownership documents would have their papers upgraded to title deeds. Suthee Thiankallaya, Land Department inspector-general, said that although the state allows land owners to convert their land into capital, no title deeds for encroached land would be issued on Samui island'