Cng(ngv) Or Lpg?

[tigerbeer]

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

After reading the weekend papers and the comments by the Ministry of TraNSPORT this weekend I am going to go with NGV. .

NOw where in Bangkok can I get the NGV conversion done?? Anyone have contact details.

I don't know where you live, but the company I went also does NGV, what's more, their own gas station supplies NGV to (about 100 up that same road).

website: http://www.ps-pornsak.com they are located on On Nut Road, close to the intersection with Udom Suk Road (next to the outer ring road -- east side).

And as I mentioned, if required, they have English speaking staff.

I spoke to a mechanic on the phone who said d they don't do NGV(Only LPG) but as there is a lot of extension numbers I may have got a section that only deals with LPG. I tried to get the operator but they didn't pick up.

I got mine done at S.O. NGV (Chiang Mai branch) based out of Singapore or Malaysia. Not sure which. They have a branch in Ayutthaya. Which I believe is not really far from Bangkok. Very professional in their work and well established. When you do an NGV installation, you should be sure that the installer is part of the panel approved by PTT. Otherwise it would be hel_l in getting your PTT NGV fuel card that you need to show at most NGV stations.

[sysmaster]

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

After reading the weekend papers and the comments by the Ministry of TraNSPORT this weekend I am going to go with NGV. .

NOw where in Bangkok can I get the NGV conversion done?? Anyone have contact details.

I don't know where you live, but the company I went also does NGV, what's more, their own gas station supplies NGV to (about 100 up that same road).

website: http://www.ps-pornsak.com they are located on On Nut Road, close to the intersection with Udom Suk Road (next to the outer ring road -- east side).

And as I mentioned, if required, they have English speaking staff.

I spoke to a mechanic on the phone who said d they don't do NGV(Only LPG) but as there is a lot of extension numbers I may have got a section that only deals with LPG. I tried to get the operator but they didn't pick up.

After checking their website again, they do not mention NGV, so you might be right, my mistake.. caused by the fact that when I was in the workshop, I saw NGV stuff laying around (tank etc). Thus I assumed that they did NGV....or did they converted an NGV to LPG, and those parts where leftovers?...everything is possible.

As for their phone-system, happened to me to, but after seeing the action in their office, I could understand why....

For other installers... maybe check the http://www.gasthai.com website, and crawl your way through.

[Plus]

After running my LPG conversion from diesel to a 2.5 litre Toyota engine + LPG about 6 months ago:-

...

Average cost per kilometre 2 baht on a long trip. Top speed of 130 KPH

I installed a bigger, 3l engine with VVTi. Average cost per km is about the same, 2 baht, top speed is unknown.

All I know is that when accelerating it switches to fourth gear at 170km/h. I have no chances to test how much faster it would go.

[yamatokh]

I need to correct something I said. The little Green Leaf station downstairs (Onnut 30) is CNG. Price 8.50 (the junk should be sold by weight not volume)

Yesterday they had supplies. I notice they load the fuel via the hood instead of the back like LNG.

My quote from another forum:

I came across a Nisson dealer who also install NGV and LPG for all brands of cars. They have a show case to show you exactly what parts they use with brand name print on them and certificates (All parts are from Italy, there are 3 brands mixed. The tank is from Thailand with government certification). I haven't yet see a shop outside that show you detail like that and it really give you a peace of mind to have installation done there. But the price is not cheap though, for a 4 cylinder runs 50,500. If want to upgrade the tank size adds 1000 for one size upgrade, there are total of 3 sizes available. Their NGV installation is 60K, parts I did not see, but was told from Italy as well, the tank is from PTT.......

So if anyone would like to install NGV, I highly recommand to install there. This dealer is located on Sinakarin road. If you comes from Bangna-Trad (Novotel Bangna) goes towards Seacon Square, after you pass Seacon, it's about 1Km driving and the it will be on your right hand side. (If you reach intersection for of Jusco, you have gone too far).

Hope this helps.

sounds good do you know the name and phone number. i speak Thai .

The number is 02-722-8485-6, cell is 086-337-6084. The guy's name is Varat Jarukulsin. Hope this helps.

Last time when I visit them (two weeks ago), the schedule wait time is until August, not sure about now. Do expect a long waiting list though as this dealer does not work on Sunday as compare to other shops who works 24-7.

[bellagrego]

Hey guys, I am really impressed at the depth and accuracy of the information offered on our website. Most of the junk quoted in other forums are quite simply crap. We must have a lot ex pat sae engineers among us.

My conclusion is it's too soon to tell which way to go on my pending purcharse of a new car or truck. The current administration is pumping up NGV with huge subsidies just like the LPG. When they get the mix the way they want it, I have no doubt, goodbye subsidies. That could cripple the edge for these gaseous fuels. Right now, I lean toward the Chev/Opa/ Optra, with its's factory installed NGV. A whopping 17+kml is hard to pass up, if it's true.

r/bell

[tigerbeer]

Hey guys, I am really impressed at the depth and accuracy of the information offered on our website. Most of the junk quoted in other forums are quite simply crap. We must have a lot ex pat sae engineers among us.

My conclusion is it's too soon to tell which way to go on my pending purcharse of a new car or truck. The current administration is pumping up NGV with huge subsidies just like the LPG. When they get the mix the way they want it, I have no doubt, goodbye subsidies. That could cripple the edge for these gaseous fuels. Right now, I lean toward the Chev/Opa/ Optra, with its's factory installed NGV. A whopping 17+kml is hard to pass up, if it's true.

r/bell

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is? Or am i missing some piece of information here. Can someone with more information shed some light on this?? It is however anticipated the the price of NGV shall rise by 50% in the year 2010 as quoted by a Bangkok Post Motoring journalist in today's Bangkok Post ie: 7th July.

Also what gives a whopping 17+kml?

[monty]

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is?

YEs there is!

Real price of NGV is around 14 Baht/kg, so there currently is about 5-6 Baht subsidy...

Source:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/040708_Business...l2008_biz01.php

[PattayaParent]

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is? Or am i missing some piece of information here. Can someone with more information shed some light on this?? It is however anticipated the the price of NGV shall rise by 50% in the year 2010 as quoted by a Bangkok Post Motoring journalist in today's Bangkok Post ie: 7th July.

Also what gives a whopping 17+kml?

The Thai government are pushing NGV because they have gas fields and will be self sufficient in the supply but are still subsidising it to encourage people to convert.

They were an exporter of LPG but as they fixed the domestic price at $320 a tonne people started converting their cars to run on LPG and the demand became so great that they had to IMPORT LPG at the world market rate of $900 a tonne.

Buying at 900 and selling at 320 makes Mr. McCawber a very unhappy chappy so they removed the subsidy.

They are also an importer of petrol.

Also what gives a whopping 17+kml? Answer a petrol driven Toyota Vios.

[dotcom]

I sense the return of the 1.3 liter & 1.5 liter engines & manual transmissions.

[PattayaParent]

I sense the return of the 1.3 liter & 1.5 liter engines & manual transmissions.

Have they ever gone away? My new Vios is 1.5 litre engine and manual transmission.

[tigerbeer]

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is?

YEs there is!

Real price of NGV is around 14 Baht/kg, so there currently is about 5-6 Baht subsidy...

Source:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/040708_Business...l2008_biz01.php

thanks for pointing that out Monty. I was in the impression that NGV was not being subsidised since there is not much talk about it. At least CNG is more stable since its not traded on the futures markets.

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is? Or am i missing some piece of information here. Can someone with more information shed some light on this?? It is however anticipated the the price of NGV shall rise by 50% in the year 2010 as quoted by a Bangkok Post Motoring journalist in today's Bangkok Post ie: 7th July.

Also what gives a whopping 17+kml?

The Thai government are pushing NGV because they have gas fields and will be self sufficient in the supply but are still subsidising it to encourage people to convert.

They were an exporter of LPG but as they fixed the domestic price at $320 a tonne people started converting their cars to run on LPG and the demand became so great that they had to IMPORT LPG at the world market rate of $900 a tonne.

Buying at 900 and selling at 320 makes Mr. McCawber a very unhappy chappy so they removed the subsidy.

They are also an importer of petrol.

Also what gives a whopping 17+kml? Answer a petrol driven Toyota Vios.

Being self sufficient is soooo important during these days isnt it? thanks for the info !

I sense the return of the 1.3 liter & 1.5 liter engines & manual transmissions.

Have they ever gone away? My new Vios is 1.5 litre engine and manual transmission.

I would always opt for a manual transmission for anything at 1.5 or lower.

[sysmaster]

I have not read of any subsidies towards NGV, unless there is?

YEs there is!

Real price of NGV is around 14 Baht/kg, so there currently is about 5-6 Baht subsidy...

Source:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/040708_Business...l2008_biz01.php

THANK YOU! Monty....

[davehowden]

Can anyone tell me the cost per kilometere for using NGV for a standard 1600 cc car?

[tigerbeer]

Can anyone tell me the cost per kilometere for using NGV for a standard 1600 cc car?

approx 60 satang.

[Upcountry]

clausewitz, thanks for starting this good and timely thread.

Well, it's interesting. Looks like I need to modify my old 95 burner to handle ethanol even if I convert to LPG.

Has anyone heard of the Vogas Sequential Gas Injection system? It's is an advanced system, as opposed to more conventional ones, the biggest difference being "no power or performance loss", which I'd like to avoid.

http://www.lpg-kits.com/bmw.htm

Googling does not bring up any results relevant to Thailand, so I wonder if I can find it here.

-UC

[sysmaster]

clausewitz, thanks for starting this good and timely thread.

Well, it's interesting. Looks like I need to modify my old 95 burner to handle ethanol even if I convert to LPG.

Has anyone heard of the Vogas Sequential Gas Injection system? It's is an advanced system, as opposed to more conventional ones, the biggest difference being "no power or performance loss", which I'd like to avoid.

http://www.lpg-kits.com/bmw.htm

Googling does not bring up any results relevant to Thailand, so I wonder if I can find it here.

-UC

Googled : http://www.euroautogas.co.th/main/products.php

They are sellling Vogas, apparently it's a product from Voltran (TR).

Going through their spec's and claims, seems interesting, but also triggers some questions.

They claim that no Flashlube is required because they are using a mix of LPG and gasoline.

Might very well work nicely, but you will be using more gasoline than you would on a pure

LPG system, that would only use gasoline in the cold phase of the engine.

No power-loss... probably by changing the mix LPG/Gasoline when HP's are required,

resulting in a different THB/KM figure.....

The so-called no-power-loss claims are virtual, a LPG system can be tuned to "almost"

equal performance compared to gasoline, with one drawback... clearly higher gas consumption.

Its up to the driver what he want's to achieve.

[Plus]

I don't notice any power loss with my mixer+injector heads system when I switch between petrol and LPG already, though sequential injection system is the next step in development, they must have something else going for it.

How about a system that automatically adjusts ignition to take advantage of higher octane value of LPG? That would give it MORE power than running on petrol.

[Upcountry]

I'm considering the cost/benefit of just getting the filter and rubber tube upgrades my car needs to run on ethanol vs installing an LPG system.

Now that I've learned that the car still needs to start on gas/ethanol, and that the Vogas system mixes whatever is in the car's gas tank, it gets tricky.

I don't want to fill the tank with ethanol just for starting. Ethanol tends to evaporate (degrade?) faster than gasoline, right?, so that's not great. My car requires 95 octane gas, which is getting near impossible to find in my area (Shell stopped selling it), so my choice is either 91 or ethanol.

I wonder how this figures into the Vogas octane equation, since by design, it seems to me, it is meant to mix the car's required octane with the LPG. This involves timing adjustments, for sure. Would this fuel combination actually give me the benefits that Vogas promises?

Given the complexity, maintenance and expense of the LPG setup, maybe I'm better off just suffering with ethanol.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Have just seen a shop here in Phuket on Bypass rd putting LPG in cars, my God i would not like to have it done there, if they are certified to do it then i would be very scared

Forgot: the 3 cars they where working on was very old cars

Edited July 17, 2008 by HDRIDER

[Gary A]

This past several months, 95 octane gasoline has been getting harder and harder to find. Just recently I was pleased to see E20 for sale in this area. I expected to suffer economy problems as compared to 95 octane gasoline. I have now decided that Ford sacrificed 95 octane gasoline economy at the expense of being able to efficiently use E20. So far the E20 experience has been a very good one. I really think the car has more power with E20 and the fuel economy is every bit as good as with 95 octane gasoline as near as I can tell. Two tank fulls is not enough to know for sure.

I was quite disappointed with my fuel economy and HAVING to use 95 octane. I investigated changing to LPG but didn't want to lose my warranty. I then thought about trading for a Focus diesel. I'm still not convinced that the dry fuel LPG is the whole answer. The new Vogus split fuel systems DO appeal to me. Maybe by the time my warranty is finished, they will have improved split fuel systems available.

High compression engines benefit from E20 fuel because of the higher octane. I'd bet that if your engine is able to use 91 octane, you will be disappointed with E20.

[clausewitz]

Picked up my Honda city with the new NGV installed today. Runs so well. It automatically changes to NGV as soon as moter reaches 40C (about 20secs) and the change is undetectable.

I went for a 90L tank rather than the standard 70for the extra range.

Cost was 64,000baht at http://osu.co.th/contact.php Guys name was teddy and he speaks good English .

I see LPG could go up to 32baht/l equivalent if all subsidies are droped so it seems NGV is teh best solution.

[sysmaster]

Picked up my Honda city with the new NGV installed today. Runs so well. It automatically changes to NGV as soon as moter reaches 40C (about 20secs) and the change is undetectable.

I went for a 90L tank rather than the standard 70for the extra range.

Cost was 64,000baht at http://osu.co.th/contact.php Guys name was teddy and he speaks good English .

I see LPG could go up to 32baht/l equivalent if all subsidies are droped so it seems NGV is teh best solution.

Congratulations and welcome to the "gang".

well if the 32THB/L becomes reality, gasoline will also have reached new heights, so there will still be a bit of a profit margin, thus not to much to worry about. Worst case we convert to NGV then, since part of the LPG installation is reusable like ECU, injectors, sensors etc, just tank, gas lines and evaporator/regulator needs replacement (I think).

In another thread I made a simple calculation on the break-even between LPG and gasoline, in my case LPG can reach 30THB/L before it is more expensive to run LPG, but these calculations are based upon current pricing.

[Plus]

LPG will probably be raised to 18 baht/l, not more than that, but this first hike is just around the corner.

[clausewitz]

FUEL POLICY

Lpg for vehicles set for price rise early next month

By Achara Deboonme

The Nation

Published on July 22, 2008

Experts warn government against subsidies after evidence they do not cut consumption

If things go as planned, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) for vehicles will rise in price early next month, while the price of the same gas for household use will be maintained until the end of next January.

While the government hopes the price hike will discourage the use of LPG in vehicles, energy industry experts say the increase is too small. Instead, they say the price should be raised across the board and measures introduced to help those affected.

Reports suggest LPG for vehicles, commonly known as autogas, could cost an additional Bt10 per kilogram, while its price for household use would remain at Bt18.13. At the present global price of US$920 (Bt30,700) per tonne, the retail price should be about $1.09 a kilogram, to reflect its actual cost. Filling up LPG tanks would then cost about Bt32 a litre (given that 1 kilogram equals 1.04 litres).

"People in Europe are asking me why Thailand has never learned from others' lessons. Subsidies result only in a steep state burden and do not lower energy consumption," said an energy expert who asked not to be named.

However, in Thailand the government has never encouraged the use of LPG in vehicles, and it is easy to understand why. First, LPG - better known here as cooking gas and elsewhere among motorists as autogas - is hugely subsidised, because it is reserved mainly for household use. Second, Thailand is tapping its own vast reserves of natural gas. Since LPG is a petroleum by-product, it is better for a country where 90 per cent of crude oil is imported to cut those imports by switching to the locally sourced product.

Despite all of this, the government's heavy subsidies have boosted the use of LPG in vehicles, and even though the price is set to rise, Bangkok motorists continue to queue up at LPG stations. They say is it is more convenient to find an LPG filling station than one selling natural gas for vehicles (NGV), because most of these seem to be outside of the city area.

Based on the country's refining capacity for crude oil of 1 million barrels per day, LPG outputs from refineries vary from 5-8 per cent of this figure. About 7,000 tonnes of LPG per day also comes from gas-separation plants handling about 60,000 barrels of natural gas a day.

In all, Thailand's LPG output amounts to 3 million tonnes a year. However, demand has now risen to 3.5 million tonnes, and Thailand, which was once a net exporter of LPG, began importing the gas in April.

It is conservatively estimated that Thailand will import more than 300,000 tonnes of LPG this year and nearly 1 million tonnes next year if the government's subsidy remains in force.

PTT, the only importer of LPG, says so far it has not been affected financially by the yawning difference between the global price it pays and the domestic price it receives. However, with estimated unrealised losses from the LPG trade reaching Bt60 billion this year, there is no telling when PTT's burden will be cleared. Thailand was lucky to clear oil subsidies of nearly Bt90 billion in a year, but that concerns motorists and not household consumers, who are relatively poorer.

This situation would not have occurred if demand for LPG from vehicle-owners and industrial plants had not skyrocketed. Household consumption remains at 60 per cent of output.

Due to continuously rising oil prices - which in turn raises LPG prices - the previous government planned to end the LPG subsidy with a five-step plan. However, the plan never advanced beyond the first step.

The Samak Sundaravej government is also reluctant to lift the gas price for fear that household users will suffer. For a month, it has been working on measures to halt the conversion of vehicles to household gas.

Another energy expert agreed the price of LPG should be lifted across the board and that the move should be made now.

"If the government is concerned about household users, it could still subsidise their use, but in a different way," he said.

The expert suggested the government survey household gas consumption and offer a cut in electricity bills as a subsidy.

An Energy Ministry source said the government could give rebates to buyers returning gas tanks for new purchases. Alternatively, gas-tank receipts could be used to claim rebates from a bank.

It seems strategies like this must be pondered rather than measures to prevent the continuing conversion of vehicles to household gas. Only an across-the-board price increase will put a brake on the erroneous use of cooking gas to drive auto engines.

Edited July 23, 2008 by clausewitz

[Plus]

the retail price should be about $1.09 a kilogram, to reflect its actual cost. Filling up LPG tanks would then cost about Bt32 a litre (given that 1 kilogram equals 1.04 litres).

1 kg of LPG equals about 2 litres, not 1.04. That's why I think the real price will be a lot less, 18 baht/l is the figure mentioned earlier, I believe they'll stick to it for psychologial reasons.

[monty]

If LPG gets 100% floated, it will cost 30,700 Baht/tonne, or 30,7 Baht/kg, or 17 Baht/liter.

Retail will be around 10% higher.

[Upcountry]

I called BMW Thailand today. After talking to a Thai technician, he transferred me to a German man connected to customer relations, I think. He adamantly stated the company line, that LPG is very bad for the car. He called LPG taxi's rolling bombs (connections the same as we see in the kitchen here - scary!).

Obviously, the car company doesn't want to touch any liability issues with "a ten foot pole", but it does point up how tricky it is to get the job done right. The other issue is the burn temperature, etc. He warned that engine life would suffer. I could not get him to discuss the fuel-mix aspect of the Voltran Vogas system, which I hoped he would be able to tell me might solve the problems.

One engineer did say that the 'BM could be tuned to handle 91, but there would be long-term problems doing that (see my note above about mixing 91 with LPG via the "Voltran Vogas system with split fuel technology").

The German guy maintained that E10 is fine for my '93 BMW, and this flies in the face of what I've been told before (fuel filter change, etc.).

Weird, eh?

Edited July 29, 2008 by Upcountry

[junkofdavid2]

One thing that pleased me very much on this installation is that the "greaser-kit" is automatically installed as well. this is a small tank containing "Flashlube", this lube is mixed into your gas as a lubricant for your cylinder valves, to compensate for lack of "natural" greasing that occurs when driving on gasoline. My advice is that where ever you have your LPG conversion done, make sure this kit is included.

Does anyone have a picture of what this bottle looks like when attached to the engine?

Or if not, does anyone have a picture of what this "extra-lubrication" system looks like when attached to an LPG powered engine?

I'm looking to buy a used LPG powered car, and I wana know what this extra-lubrication looks like. Thanks.

[sysmaster]

One thing that pleased me very much on this installation is that the "greaser-kit" is automatically installed as well. this is a small tank containing "Flashlube", this lube is mixed into your gas as a lubricant for your cylinder valves, to compensate for lack of "natural" greasing that occurs when driving on gasoline. My advice is that where ever you have your LPG conversion done, make sure this kit is included.

Does anyone have a picture of what this bottle looks like when attached to the engine?

Or if not, does anyone have a picture of what this "extra-lubrication" system looks like when attached to an LPG powered engine?

I'm looking to buy a used LPG powered car, and I wana know what this extra-lubrication looks like. Thanks.

Hi there,

see the attached picture, the original bottle is easily recognizable by that flow control valve on the side. (that brass thing)

the feeder tube goes downward to the engine and is normally attached to the crank-case breather hose outlet (the one that goes to the air intake of the carbs)

Edited July 31, 2008 by sysmaster

[sysmaster]

I called BMW Thailand today. After talking to a Thai technician, he transferred me to a German man connected to customer relations, I think. He adamantly stated the company line, that LPG is very bad for the car. He called LPG taxi's rolling bombs (connections the same as we see in the kitchen here - scary!).

Obviously, the car company doesn't want to touch any liability issues with "a ten foot pole", but it does point up how tricky it is to get the job done right. The other issue is the burn temperature, etc. He warned that engine life would suffer. I could not get him to discuss the fuel-mix aspect of the Voltran Vogas system, which I hoped he would be able to tell me might solve the problems.

One engineer did say that the 'BM could be tuned to handle 91, but there would be long-term problems doing that (see my note above about mixing 91 with LPG via the "Voltran Vogas system with split fuel technology").

The German guy maintained that E10 is fine for my '93 BMW, and this flies in the face of what I've been told before (fuel filter change, etc.).

Weird, eh?

Who to trust..., I don't remember if I mentioned it before, but I had similar issues with Chevrolet, more specifically concerning the Zafira. When the E-fuels hit the market here, GM TH was quick in issuing a statement that their cars can handle E-fuels without problems....., however Opel Germany, who originally builds the Zafira, strongly advised against E-fuels in the Zafi, only last March they gave a green light for it, still excuding one engine type (but that's only installed on the Zafira B model, not available in TH)

Funny is that Opel talked about the engine, not the fuel tubing, filters etc (since they are identical on all models), and since the local Zafira's have those engines directly imported from Germany... all those following GM's advice where just lucky that GM TH guessed right.