Cng(ngv) Or Lpg?

[jaideeguy]

"Forget it, it's impossible. It's like "can I use a canister instead of my fuel tank?"

If it's the same gas, then it's not impossible. The reason I was asking that stupid question is that I was thinking of getting a cheap old mazda pick-up and have that converted for just cruising around outside town and there are no LPG or CNG stations near by and the gas bottles could be stored just behind the cab. I'm sure that this has been done....does anybody know??

I'd use my diesel guzzling colorado for town trips.

[swain]

slightly off topic, does anyone know if s there a way of finding out where PTT have NGV pumps throughout thailand, internet???

This is a great question and I hope someone hits on it... a site that keeps updating where the lpg/ngv stations are. Then when considering a conversion you will have all the information you need to make an educated decision, plus when going on extended travel being able to print this list out and take it with you. I would be willing to build the site if I could get the information .... any thoughts on where this information might be obtained either in Thai or English.

Edited June 20, 2008 by swain

[madjbs]

"Forget it, it's impossible. It's like "can I use a canister instead of my fuel tank?"

If it's the same gas, then it's not impossible. The reason I was asking that stupid question is that I was thinking of getting a cheap old mazda pick-up and have that converted for just cruising around outside town and there are no LPG or CNG stations near by and the gas bottles could be stored just behind the cab. I'm sure that this has been done....does anybody know??

I'd use my diesel guzzling colorado for town trips.

It can be done but is very dangerous in the case of an accident, defiantly not a good idea. It is also illegal.

[clausewitz]

Hopefully not a stupid question, but can a car/truck be fitted with the 'cooking gas' tanks??

It would take up a little more space, but would be much easier to replace when empty. Gas shops everywhere!!!

3 questions....

Would the cooking gas tanks be as safe as a fitted tank??

Would the cost/per ltr be the same as an LPG fill up??

Is the gas and pressure the same same?

It is done occasionally, last year a motorcylist blew up using a home made cooking gas conversion. Illegal of course, but that won't stop idiots.

[snowflake]

I have a brand new Honda Jazz, just wondering if I could swap to NGV or LPG, how much would that cost and how much would I save??? Would I lose the warranty on my car??? Guess so...

Just ranting along here... Ignore my stupid brain...

[sysmaster]

Well Bubba,

As you may have noticed, I'm driving a Chevrolet Zafira, and do have some connections into Chevrolet....

Be it one of their service centers.

There seems to be more problems than pleasures with the NGV converted Optra's, this of course being an unofficial statement. So I advise your friend to think twice, if he is driving a 1.8L and the warranty would be void anyway, let him get a LPG conversion for 30 to 40 K. THB (hopefully you $60K was a typo).

---OT---

Basically car manufacturers should be called to court for their whole "warranty void" policy, by enforcing it they force buyers to keep running expensive fuels for at least 3 years after the purchase of the vehicle.

And believe me, all of them know exactly what kind of damage is to be expected depending on the alternative fuel used.

When Gasohol became the latest cry of this country, GM/Chevrolet was quick to assure that their cars where Gasohol compliant..... however the original manufacturer of the Zafira (Opel Germany) was not issuing a green light for the engines used in the Zafira's, not until March this year. So who do you have to believe.

(just something to think about)

--- OT end ---

Another tidbit: I have a friend with a Chevy Optra who contacted Chevrolet regarding an NGV conversion, since Chevrolet are now producing new Optras out of the factory with NGV. Chevrolet said that yes, they will do an NGV conversion at their service centres. They have certified NGV for their 1.6L engine and the warranty would not be voided for an NGV conversion with that engine. They can also do the conversion on the 1.8L engine, but the warranty would be voided (even done at the Chevy shop), because they have not "certified" the NGV conversion for that engine.

And the cost? Chevrolet told him about $60K.

[Lancashirelad]

in continuation to my first posting, yesterday we went for a "life" tuning because the "static" tuning did not

solve all quirks, now there is almost no measurable difference in performance between gasoline and LPG.

The guy was slightly impressed about the performance of a 2.2 Zafira, he said that this was the first time that he did a life tuning on a Zafi, other Zafi customers seemed to be more gentle to their engine and did not require a life tuning.

I don't know how this last tuning is going to reflect on consumption, usage will show, specially the weight of my right foot.

sysmaster, just for clarity, did you mean live tune up? i.e. done on the move? Or life, i.e. 1 tune up will outlast the life of the vehicle?

[sysmaster]

"It is done occasionally" is probably the understatement of the year, up-country they are converting whatever gasoline driven vehicle to run on LPG or so.

Using household gas tanks is even more done than installing presumably safe tanks.

Also here in BKK I saw several motorbikes that where running LPG, from smaller

household gas bottles, one of them was a gas "supplier/deliverer" who apparently had

converted his whole "fleet" of delivery motorcycles.

A few months ago, there was an article of a boat operator who was running LPG....

from household gas bottles.

When I was at my installer, there was a disabled lottery sales guy on his "trike",

inquiring a possible conversion to LPG, and the technician said it would be no

problem at all. If it was finally done I don't know, since the price would probably

be a bit to steep for the guy, but in this country everything goes.

Technically speaking , there is no problem to convert motorcycles to LPG, only

some serious engineering should be done to develop a safe system.

The only thing that happens here is that the powers declare it unsafe/should not be done/forbidden,

instead of putting some engineers/designers to it and make it feasible. But as long as the installation

of toroid tanks on cars remains forbidden, not much will change, safe motorcycle tanks require a

bit of "out of the box" thinking.

in reply to the 3 questions:

1- NO, but with proper rigging and mounted in a safe zone of the car, it would be an alternative

2- apparently yes

3- probably yes, since LPG is filled in the bottle to a liquified state.

3a- does it have the same propane/butane mixture, I don't know, but probably yes since it has

already been demonstrated that it works (motorcycles e.d.)

Hopefully not a stupid question, but can a car/truck be fitted with the 'cooking gas' tanks??

It would take up a little more space, but would be much easier to replace when empty. Gas shops everywhere!!!

3 questions....

Would the cooking gas tanks be as safe as a fitted tank??

Would the cost/per ltr be the same as an LPG fill up??

Is the gas and pressure the same same?

It is done occasionally, last year a motorcylist blew up using a home made cooking gas conversion. Illegal of course, but that won't stop idiots.

[sysmaster]

Lancashirelad,

In the context, "Life" tune up was me driving and the technician adjusting the GAS ECU.

This removes all little problems because he then adjusts "under load" conditions that are

quite different from just rev'ing the engine in the shop.

A bit dangerous as well, certainly when you're driving 120+++ and the ECU misunderstood

a programming sequence that causes the engine to die instantly..... you're then very happy that

you strapped yourself in..

And one tune up will certainly not last the life span of the car.

in continuation to my first posting, yesterday we went for a "life" tuning because the "static" tuning did not

solve all quirks, now there is almost no measurable difference in performance between gasoline and LPG.

The guy was slightly impressed about the performance of a 2.2 Zafira, he said that this was the first time that he did a life tuning on a Zafi, other Zafi customers seemed to be more gentle to their engine and did not require a life tuning.

I don't know how this last tuning is going to reflect on consumption, usage will show, specially the weight of my right foot.

sysmaster, just for clarity, did you mean live tune up? i.e. done on the move? Or life, i.e. 1 tune up will outlast the life of the vehicle?

[Lancashirelad]

just as i thought, you did indeed mean live tune up.

thanks for the clarification. :-)

Edited June 20, 2008 by Lancashirelad

[Plus]

The only thing that happens here is that the powers declare it unsafe/should not be done/forbidden,

instead of putting some engineers/designers to it and make it feasible.

That's why they design LPG tanks for cars. Are you saying that all this "dangerous" thing is only a marketing ploy to sell more expensive tanks?

What they do "upcountry" to save costs is their business, they are not known for being great on safety, I wouldn't even think of following their "safe" practices that include driving without lights on the wrong side of the road.

I assumed the question was not really about "possible", but also "advisable". Lots of things are possible, technically speaking.

[sysmaster]

I would certainly not say that this is a ploy to sell more expensive tanks, the local tanks are a lot cheaper than the imported toroid tanks.

"official" statements that I've heard until now are that toroid tanks are unsafe, that the gov. is afraid that local installers are incapable of properly installing toroids, and a few more excuses in that context.

an "unofficial" statement was that the ruling against toroids is only a market protection ploy, currently no TH tank manufacturer is producing toroids, but I think that when one of them manages to manufacture them the ban will be lifted.

I do admit that the use of toroid tanks in TH would be more dangerous than in EU, the general road conditions and the frequent use of speedbumps is all sizes and shapes pose a real danger for unprofessionally installed toroids.

Safety has always been an issue here, or better said the lack of it. Those who implement these home brew solutions are probably aware of the dangers, but the fact that they can save a few bucks will overrule the "fear factor".

Possible..... Yes, advisable..., in the context of how things tend to be done here, not really. And if they will really save a lot of money with driving a LPG converted motorcycle is questionable,

the extra weight and the limited capacity of the gas tanks will probably reduce the gained profit.

But as long as any profit/gain is possible, it will be done.

The only thing that happens here is that the powers declare it unsafe/should not be done/forbidden,

instead of putting some engineers/designers to it and make it feasible.

That's why they design LPG tanks for cars. Are you saying that all this "dangerous" thing is only a marketing ploy to sell more expensive tanks?

What they do "upcountry" to save costs is their business, they are not known for being great on safety, I wouldn't even think of following their "safe" practices that include driving without lights on the wrong side of the road.

I assumed the question was not really about "possible", but also "advisable". Lots of things are possible, technically speaking.

[Plus]

I was talking about converting common cooking gas cylinders at home vs. factory manufactured LPG tanks for cars, not toroids or motorcycles.

As I said earlier - it's like fitting a plastic canister instead of your petrol tank. Possible - yes, advisable?

[sysmaster]

Sorry, was on the wrong track....

and as far as using normal gas cylinders on a vehicle, not advisable, the wall thickness is to thin and will probably not survive a crash.

I was talking about converting common cooking gas cylinders at home vs. factory manufactured LPG tanks for cars, not toroids or motorcycles.

As I said earlier - it's like fitting a plastic canister instead of your petrol tank. Possible - yes, advisable?

[sysmaster]

Since this also interest me, I did some digging in the www and found following link:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp...c013653&z=8

and

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp...49970152b0a3e86

in following article: http://www.fordfocusclub.com/forum/index.p...opic,780.0.html

The first Google map is apparently not containing all, the second map is more complete.

You will need Google Earth is you want to use the data in your computer, otherwise you have to check it

each time via the link on an on-line map.

disadvantage of the more complete second map is that all information is in Thai, the first map contains a certain amount of English references.

But at least now we have something to go on.

as for reference how an LPG station might look on Google maps: 13°42'30.79"N 100°32'35.17"E

This is a Lpg station on Nang Linchee road, "clearly?" recognizable is the storage tank(s) at the rear right

corner of the lot.

slightly off topic, does anyone know if s there a way of finding out where PTT have NGV pumps throughout thailand, internet???

This is a great question and I hope someone hits on it... a site that keeps updating where the lpg/ngv stations are. Then when considering a conversion you will have all the information you need to make an educated decision, plus when going on extended travel being able to print this list out and take it with you. I would be willing to build the site if I could get the information .... any thoughts on where this information might be obtained either in Thai or English.

Edited June 23, 2008 by sysmaster

[sunny747]

LPg price has increased from 11.02 baht to 11.35 baht..............i guess it will go more high..

[sysmaster]

Looks like it, it's on the raise since Saturday.... let's see where it ends

Hopefully not at a level that we will be pleasing the environmentalists and

ALL switch to public transport....

LPg price has increased from 11.02 baht to 11.35 baht..............i guess it will go more high..

[monty]

Same here, up to 9.99 Baht from 9.69 last week...

Rumour is that they will go for different price between automotive use LPG and cooking LPG (which is identical over here)...

[clausewitz]

I pick up my new car on Monday and still can't decide whethe rto go for the fuel inject LPG or NGV. dam_n this is hard. I plan on keeping the car for 3 years, and there are several NGV fueling stations near where I live..

[Captain Haddock]

So if I want to buy a 10-yr +old car, as it is stronger in a crash and not made of plastic/metal crap that folds like balsa wood, and I intend to use it in the south of Siam, which would be better - LPG or NGV?

[monty]

I pick up my new car on Monday and still can't decide whethe rto go for the fuel inject LPG or NGV. dam_n this is hard. I plan on keeping the car for 3 years, and there are several NGV fueling stations near where I live..

If you live close to refueling stations, the only thing to consider is range.

Depending on your car expect between 150 and 250 km range at best.

The problem of LPG at the moment is price. It's still heavily subsidized, anyone's guess when they will let the price float.

Market price would be around the 20 Baht mark, still have of current petrol prices, but double of what LPG costs today...

[sysmaster]

I pick up my new car on Monday and still can't decide whethe rto go for the fuel inject LPG or NGV. dam_n this is hard. I plan on keeping the car for 3 years, and there are several NGV fueling stations near where I live..

If you live close to refueling stations, the only thing to consider is range.

Depending on your car expect between 150 and 250 km range at best.

The problem of LPG at the moment is price. It's still heavily subsidized, anyone's guess when they will let the price float.

Market price would be around the 20 Baht mark, still have of current petrol prices, but double of what LPG costs today...

I had the choice, but seeing those queue's at the NGV stations every day, the limited range of one tank filling and the 90Kg. empty tank weight set my decision to LPG.

As far as the price will go, the future will tell...

[Lancashirelad]

If they're anything like the British Governement, as soon as they realise lots of people are using gas, they'll remove the subsidy & whack the tax up.

Diesel used to be cheap in England until diesel cars grew in popularity. Now its dearer than petrol! A lesser refined product!

[marshbags]

Bangkok Post, AUTOMOBILES 24-06-2008

Ref url for the complete article :- http://www.bangkokpost.com/240608_Business...n2008_biz24.php

Insurance extended to NGV conversion damage

In an attempt to encourage car owners to shift to using natural gas for vehicles (NGV), 47 local insurance firms have agreed to offer 10% discounts on insurance premiums against vehicle damage caused by modifying to NGV.

According to Suchin Wanglee, president of the General Insurance Association (GIA), owners of cars that switch to NGV would be offered the special discount until June 30, 2009.

The discount would apply to all types of voluntary motor insurance on the condition that the owner proves that the car has been converted to use NGV.

According to Mr Suchin, the special insurance scheme would also extend coverage against damage to NGV equipment. Existing motor insurance excludes NGV equipment.

Installation expenses including equipment for vehicles modified for NGV average 50,000 to 60,000 baht.

Unquote

Apologies if this is posted elsewhere, thought it complimented this thread nicely.

marshbags

Edited June 24, 2008 by marshbags

[yamatokh]

If they're anything like the British Governement, as soon as they realise lots of people are using gas, they'll remove the subsidy & whack the tax up.

Diesel used to be cheap in England until diesel cars grew in popularity. Now its dearer than petrol! A lesser refined product!

It's a world of demand and supply. The government can only do so much.

[sysmaster]

Apparently high in demand and no supply, I just wanted to refill and all LPG stations in my area are out of LPG, that is On Nut/Srinakarin/Patanakarn.

Asking the guy at the pump when there would be gas again.... Mai Ru...

(maybe Tuesday morning, after the deregulation of the LPG prices)

If they're anything like the British Governement, as soon as they realise lots of people are using gas, they'll remove the subsidy & whack the tax up.

Diesel used to be cheap in England until diesel cars grew in popularity. Now its dearer than petrol! A lesser refined product!

It's a world of demand and supply. The government can only do so much.

[dotcom]

I drive a honda civic 06 fitted with NGV. Let me share my opinions:

- there is some power loss using NGV. approx 15%.

- frustrating queues for fill ups at the moment. PTT has promised to increase NGV delivery trucks by 3 fold before the end of this year. refueling stations by 2 fold before the end of year.

- PTT extremely strict on who installs the NGV system in your car. A full report is given to you on the testing of your tank etc. No approval card from PTT, no NGV for you. simple as that.

- at least 60k installation for a 4 cylinder car.

- no one i know does NGV conversions for Audi. (confirmed cause my we asked around for our Audi). their reason: too difficult to do and the engine just does not run well on NGV. i am not a technical person, so don't ask me why.

- car runs very smoothly with NGV. no major problems. just little teething problems that perhaps takes a month of two to sort out to perfect it. as in initial tuning etc.

- the range for my car is exactly 220km on a 70 litre tank. of course the fill up is by Kgs. approximately THB120 for a fill up. its 10.35 per kg for CNG here in chiang mai. 8 baht something in bangkok. a 100 litre tank can be installed for a camry or an accord. (mid sized cars) which would technically give you the same range of 220 or more.

- the tank is heavy! you might be required to do some modifications to the back suspension system. i added more coil and the car is a bit higher on the back. but perfect now. honda's have very soft suspensions.

- NGV is the fuel for the future.

- green car - 90% less pollutants for the environment. feel proud being part of this.

my thoughts for LPG:

- the most "make sense" conversion for the moment. its widely available and cheaper to install and gives you a longer range.

- my only concern is at least 1 baht increase for every few months for the rest of the year. It would still be cheaper than petrol no doubt but still volatile. I do not like being unsure!.. hence my choice for NGV.

- safety issues, too many LPG installers, too many different manufacturers of LPG parts. how is the quality control of installation and parts? just paranoid about it.

its actually very clear on what would be your preferred choice. but i would recommend converting to NGV if you intend to drive that car of yours for a while.

TB..

Need to be very careful of terminology: NGV - a sticker on the back of buses to indicate they have been converted to run on Natural Gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

CNG = Compressed Natural Gas

Natural Gas if compressed enough will turn into a liquid.

It sounds to me like the newer system just means reduced filling times but the tank is at a much higher pressure. Is that right?

[dotcom]

Apparently high in demand and no supply, I just wanted to refill and all LPG stations in my area are out of LPG, that is On Nut/Srinakarin/Patanakarn.

Asking the guy at the pump when there would be gas again.... Mai Ru...

Sync. Srinakarin heading toward Samut Prakarn. Make a left at the lights at Udom Suk. Just past the 4X4 shop is a LNG station that all the taxis use. Would that work?

A new station just opened here at Onnut Soi 30 - there are about 30 taxis out there right now. Hopefully it's 24 hour service.

For all you guys dreaming about installing a bank of cooking gas bottles in the back of your pickup. Don't. They aren't designed to survive a crash. We already too much crazy & dangerous stunts to invent even more.

[dotcom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

[monty]

Need to be very careful of terminology: NGV - a sticker on the back of buses to indicate they have been converted to run on Natural Gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

CNG = Compressed Natural Gas

Natural Gas if compressed enough will turn into a liquid.

It sounds to me like the newer system just means reduced filling times but the tank is at a much higher pressure. Is that right?

Nope, natural gas will stay gas! Even at the very high pressures NGV tanks get filled. Which is why so little range you get out of them!

LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) turns into a liquid at actually quite low compression. I think 1 liter of liquid petroleum turns into about 250 liters of gas. Which is why you can get very good range out of a LPG tank. (I get 400 km out of a 58 liter LPG tank with a fuel guzzling 25 year old Volvo!).

FYI LPG is a mixture of Butane and Propane, Butane turns liquid a 2.2 bar, propane at 22 bar (at 20 degrees C). The LPG mixture will be anywhere in between, normally it will liquefy around 8 bar (kg/sq cm)...