Cng(ngv) Or Lpg?

[clausewitz]

I started a new thread as the other threads are long and getting dated.

I buy a new car in June and am trying to decide whether to install LPG or NGV. I put LPG in my old car and the savings are excellent. However there is some loss of power, it idles rougher than it should and it needs regular tune-ups to optimize mileage and keep the idle working.

As I see it here are the points regarding NGV/LPG

1. LPG cheaper to install. 14,000baht for my conversion versus 65,000 for CNG (can I get cheaper?)

Question: if I had paid for the expensive LPG conversion (that injects directly or something??) would my idle/tuning problem disappear?

2. LPG going up in price. In Bangkok it is now 10.95 versus 8.5 for CNG. But it is expected to jump in price in July and continue to increase as the governement removes the current subsidies.

3. Many staions for LPG versus CNG.

4 CNG has no power loss and runs smoothly - is that true??

5. CNG takes longer to fill . How long?

6. Less stations for CNG. But are there waiting lines in bangkok?

If I go for CNG - which I am now leaning towards- any recomendations for a installer in Rangsit or Bangkok?

[monty]

1. LPG cheaper to install. 14,000baht for my conversion versus 65,000 for CNG (can I get cheaper?)

Question: if I had paid for the expensive LPG conversion (that injects directly or something??) would my idle/tuning problem disappear?

Not sure about the installation price of CNG. A small part is subsidized by the government.

Your rough idling would definitely dissapear with the more expensive LPG injection system. You'll also never need to re-tune!

2. LPG going up in price. In Bangkok it is now 10.95 versus 8.5 for CNG. But it is expected to jump in price in July and continue to increase as the governement removes the current subsidies.

Price of LPG will go up, but the government will do it very very slowly, as LPG is what the nation cooks on!

3. Many staions for LPG versus CNG.

True

4 CNG has no power loss and runs smoothly - is that true??

Not sure, never was in a car running on CNG. As said before, if your LPG system is tuned properly, it should run even smoother then on petrol

5. CNG takes longer to fill . How long?

Two kinds of filling pumps exist, low and high pressure. Most new stations use the high pressure system, where a fill up will take around 5 minutes

6. Less stations for CNG. But are there waiting lines in bangkok?

One of the problems. Most people are not that bothered by the slow filling, but more by the 20 minute cues!

If I go for CNG - which I am now leaning towards- any recomendations for a installer in Rangsit or Bangkok?

Don't forget one of the biggest problems with CNG. The range is very limited. Expect a very economic car (vios, jazz,...) to run about 200 km on one filling. If however you have a bigger/heavier car (accord, camry, CRV,...), range will be less then 150km between fill ups. You better live close to a CNG station then, if not, and you loose 20 km getting to one, there hardly any range left over!

[Plus]

Can anyone point to CNG installers in Bangkok?

LPGs are on every street corner and all ESSO stations advertise LPG conversions it seems but CNG ads are very rare.

[ruddick]

Last October I had a direct injection LPG system installed on our 6 cylinder Nissan Cefiro. It cost just over 40,000 Baht and has worked flawlessly since. If anything the car goes better on gas now then it did on petrol. It has it's own ECU which can be used for either LPG or NGV so an upgrade to NGV in the future would not mean that all the 40,000 Baht cost of the LPG installation was wasted.

You can get an LPG direct injection system for a 4 cylinder car now for around 30,000 baht. I wouldn't install the old style fixed mixer system for the reasons you have already pointed out. Also the wife's car had the old system and we did notice a little loss in power but it ran well made quite a few trips from Bangsaen to Udon Thani with no problem.

Prior to converting my Nissan I spent a lot of time checking out the various systems for both LPG and NGV. After a lot of investigation I picked a direct injection system for LPG. I do however feel that NGV is the fuel of the future in Thailand but it is not for me at present because of the following reasons.

1. Not many NGV filling stations once you are out of Bangkok area. I guess will get better in future.

2. NGV is at a very high pressure compared with LPG, you have to use high quality equipment and a high standard of installation. Most accidents involving NGV have been due to faulty material or poor workmanship. Again I would guess it will get better in future.

3. I have not as yet found an NGV filling station that didn't have a big line down the waiting to fill up.

4. The tank used for NGV is over 90Kgs empty, so it is just like having me lying in the boot permanently.

In summary for me it's LPG for now in the future NGV???

[madjbs]

Does anyone know how much it costs to upgrade your LPG system from the cheap type to the new direct injection type? How much stuff can be re-used?

[ruddick]

Does anyone know how much it costs to upgrade your LPG system from the cheap type to the new direct injection type? How much stuff can be re-used?

I am not 100% sure but I could guess using the following assumptions. The cost of a basic fixed mixer system is about 14,000 baht and the cost of a new direct injection system start at 30,000 baht up.

Depending on the condition of the existing equipment you should be able to re-use the tank complete with valves, the filler pipes and the pipes from the tank into the engine compartment. However a lot of the good installers will only re-use the tank and will want to replace the pipe work unless they are sure it is in very good condition.

The tank cost about 5,000 baht so there is the saving and perhaps the filler pipe and the copper pipes from the tank to the engine. You may also be able to sell your old stuff as apparently there is a market here for used LPG equipment. You may be able to save up to 7,000 to 8,000 baht but certainly no more.

[monty]

Last October I had a direct injection LPG system installed on our 6 cylinder Nissan Cefiro. It cost just over 40,000 Baht and has worked flawlessly since. If anything the car goes better on gas now then it did on petrol. It has it's own ECU which can be used for either LPG or NGV so an upgrade to NGV in the future would not mean that all the 40,000 Baht cost of the LPG installation was wasted.

You can get an LPG direct injection system for a 4 cylinder car now for around 30,000 baht. I wouldn't install the old style fixed mixer system for the reasons you have already pointed out. Also the wife's car had the old system and we did notice a little loss in power but it ran well made quite a few trips from Bangsaen to Udon Thani with no problem.

Prior to converting my Nissan I spent a lot of time checking out the various systems for both LPG and NGV. After a lot of investigation I picked a direct injection system for LPG. I do however feel that NGV is the fuel of the future in Thailand but it is not for me at present because of the following reasons.

1. Not many NGV filling stations once you are out of Bangkok area. I guess will get better in future.

2. NGV is at a very high pressure compared with LPG, you have to use high quality equipment and a high standard of installation. Most accidents involving NGV have been due to faulty material or poor workmanship. Again I would guess it will get better in future.

3. I have not as yet found an NGV filling station that didn't have a big line down the waiting to fill up.

4. The tank used for NGV is over 90Kgs empty, so it is just like having me lying in the boot permanently.

In summary for me it's LPG for now in the future NGV???

Don't forget he biggest problem with NGV, range.

The smaller cars like a vios and a Jazz get about 200 km out of 1 tank of NGV.

These cars do about 12 or more km/liter (around 8 liter/100km)

I too have a cefiro with a computer controlled LPG injection system. The mileage of the cefiro (on petrol) is around 9 km/liter (11 liter/100km).

This is a consumption 25% higher then the small cars, so I can expect at best a range of 150 km out of 1 tank!

This is simply not practical!

I also have an older (25 years) Volvo 245. With that car I'd be lucky to get 120 km out of a tank pf NGV. I currently have a 78 liter LPG tank (66 liter usable) in there, giving me a very comfortable 500 km range between fill ups (around 650 Baht)!

[cclub75]

Don't forget he biggest problem with NGV, range.

The smaller cars like a vios and a Jazz get about 200 km out of 1 tank of NGV.

These cars do about 12 or more km/liter (around 8 liter/100km)

I too have a cefiro with a computer controlled LPG injection system. The mileage of the cefiro (on petrol) is around 9 km/liter (11 liter/100km).

This is a consumption 25% higher then the small cars, so I can expect at best a range of 150 km out of 1 tank!

This is simply not practical!

I also have an older (25 years) Volvo 245. With that car I'd be lucky to get 120 km out of a tank pf NGV. I currently have a 78 liter LPG tank (66 liter usable) in there, giving me a very comfortable 500 km range between fill ups (around 650 Baht)!

Could you tell us how much cost a refill of NGV ?

And regarding your volvo on LPG... one refill of 66 liters costs you 650 THB and gives you 500 km... right ? Let's assume you swtich to regular gasoline with the same tank... a refill would cost 66x39 THB = 2500 THB... but how many km you could do ?

It would be good to find a website that gives clearly all the datas for gasoline/NGV/LPG, so people could be able to choose the best and cheapest solution, regarding installation costs, refills, range etc.

[monty]

I get about 10% more km per liter of petrol compared to LPG.

So the 66 liter of petrol would get me 550km.

If you reduce to price/km, LPG would cost me 1.3 Baht/km, while petrol would cost me 4.5 Baht/km.

One tank of NGV costs around 120 Baht, so price/km with the Volvo would be 1 Baht/km or about 30% cheaper then LPG.

Only problem, with only 120 km range, I would be running on petrol a lot because of running out of NGV before getting to a fill up station, which would completely negate any savings!

Actuall my savings are getting bigger by the day, the Volvo can only take 95 octane (no gasohol, a 25 year old injection system would be wrecked pretty quick on gasohol), and the price is currently already over 40 Baht/liter.

[Who, me ?]

I went yesterday to check a shop on Srinakarin Road. Name is e.g@s

The guy told me that all his compinents are imported from Italy, and he makes the job for 42,000 baht , takes 2 days. He was doing a Benz , and he did show me everything , including the way he is tuning,and made a demonstration about automatic switch from benzene to LPG and reverse....

I intend to convert a Corolla altis 1.6

Any one knows this shop, or heard about it ?

Thanks

[monty]

I went yesterday to check a shop on Srinakarin Road. Name is e.g@s

The guy told me that all his compinents are imported from Italy, and he makes the job for 42,000 baht , takes 2 days. He was doing a Benz , and he did show me everything , including the way he is tuning,and made a demonstration about automatic switch from benzene to LPG and reverse....

I intend to convert a Corolla altis 1.6

Any one knows this shop, or heard about it ?

Thanks

Don't know the shop, but the price seems to be a tad on the high side for a 4 cylinder conversion. Normally the top notch conversion for a four cylinder engine is around 35,000 Baht.

I paid 40,000 for the conversion of a 6 cylinder engine (different computer and 2 extra injectors/piping), with an additional 500 Baht for upgrade to a bigger tank (standard tank is 58 liter, I have 68)

[Who, me ?]

I went yesterday to check a shop on Srinakarin Road. Name is e.g@s

The guy told me that all his compinents are imported from Italy, and he makes the job for 42,000 baht , takes 2 days. He was doing a Benz , and he did show me everything , including the way he is tuning,and made a demonstration about automatic switch from benzene to LPG and reverse....

I intend to convert a Corolla altis 1.6

Any one knows this shop, or heard about it ?

Thanks

Don't know the shop, but the price seems to be a tad on the high side for a 4 cylinder conversion. Normally the top notch conversion for a four cylinder engine is around 35,000 Baht.

I paid 40,000 for the conversion of a 6 cylinder engine (different computer and 2 extra injectors/piping), with an additional 500 Baht for upgrade to a bigger tank (standard tank is 58 liter, I have 68)

I also think it is a bit high, but.....if it is for a higher stanfard , why not ? Where did you have your job done ? I might check with this company too . Thanks

I saw another company , and price is 35,000 baht. I was not very impressed as they tried to puch for the mixer solution at 16,000 b, which lead me to think that they are not too good on direct injection. But I might be wrong....Company is Metal mate on Srinakarin. They produce tanks themselves

[monty]

Probably not much help as I', located in the Pattaya area!

Anyway (for the benefit of Pattaya members as well): TC service, on Sukhumvitabout 500 meters before Mini Siam when going the Sattahip direction, in the back of the biggest and cheapest LPG station in Pattaya (16 filling points, 9.69 Baht/liter).

[Who, me ?]

Thanks anyway, Monty

[sunny747]

with my lancer 93, 1.3cc, i can drive 350 km with full tank in bangkok. I spent about 550 baht for full tank. So it's about 1.5 baht per KM. I was thinking of swapping my engine to 1.8 cc. The mechanic guy told me the gas consumption would be less compare to 1.3 cc. No idea though.

talking about the LPG tuning, i'm feeling i'm not getting full power. When i start my car it vibrates a lot but after few acceleration it gets better. i want to drive both in LPG and Petrol depending on the situation.

But it seems if they tune it for the LPG purpose, the petrol part doesn't work properly.

Can anybody please shed some light about the LPG tuning? Do i need to change/clean the filter/injector often? How much do they charge for lpg tuning?

thanks

[monty]

with my lancer 93, 1.3cc, i can drive 350 km with full tank in bangkok. I spent about 550 baht for full tank. So it's about 1.5 baht per KM. I was thinking of swapping my engine to 1.8 cc. The mechanic guy told me the gas consumption would be less compare to 1.3 cc. No idea though.

talking about the LPG tuning, i'm feeling i'm not getting full power. When i start my car it vibrates a lot but after few acceleration it gets better. i want to drive both in LPG and Petrol depending on the situation.

But it seems if they tune it for the LPG purpose, the petrol part doesn't work properly.

Can anybody please shed some light about the LPG tuning? Do i need to change/clean the filter/injector often? How much do they charge for lpg tuning?

thanks

Since you have a traditional LPG mixer, you loose power, both on LPG and petrol.

This is because of the "injector", the metal ring in your air tube somewhere, is restricting the airflow.

LPG is a less powerful fuel then petrol. However it has a much higher octane number then petrol (around 120, compared to the 91/95 of petrol).

This means that most LPG installers will advance the ignition, which gives more power. You can only advance the ignition when the octane is high enough of the fuel you use.

That's often the reason you get problems when switching back to petrol, the ignition is advanced so much that the engine starts pinging when running the 95 octane petrol. No problem with the 120 octane of LPG!

Tuning the LPG system is easy, and should be done every 3 months. You can do this very easily yourself!

In the small black tube running from the evaporator (the big round thing with all the tubes connected to it) to the injector (as described above) has a regulating valve in it.

Start engine.

Get the engine to run at around 3000 RPM, get somebody in the car to help you out.

Keep the gas pedal at exactly the same place.

Slowly close the regulating valve until the engine starts to slow down, then open back up again about 1/4 turn.

This should give close to perfect tuning. Opening the valve more will only increase consumption, it will not increase power!

On the evaporator is also a regulating screw, adjust this one to regulate the LPG going to the engine at idle. (Just put it where the engine seems to run the smoothest).

Putting a bigger engine inside might not really increase economy in the city a lot, but you'll have much better power. On the highway at 110 kph economy will increase!

The main problem on an older 1.3 liter engine, is that you already do not have a lot of power to play with, put in an old style LPG system and you loose 10% of that little power on top. This means you constantly pushing your engine to the edge, just to get around, making your engine wear out faster and also use a lot of gas!

[sunny747]

with my lancer 93, 1.3cc, i can drive 350 km with full tank in bangkok. I spent about 550 baht for full tank. So it's about 1.5 baht per KM. I was thinking of swapping my engine to 1.8 cc. The mechanic guy told me the gas consumption would be less compare to 1.3 cc. No idea though.

talking about the LPG tuning, i'm feeling i'm not getting full power. When i start my car it vibrates a lot but after few acceleration it gets better. i want to drive both in LPG and Petrol depending on the situation.

But it seems if they tune it for the LPG purpose, the petrol part doesn't work properly.

Can anybody please shed some light about the LPG tuning? Do i need to change/clean the filter/injector often? How much do they charge for lpg tuning?

thanks

Since you have a traditional LPG mixer, you loose power, both on LPG and petrol.

This is because of the "injector", the metal ring in your air tube somewhere, is restricting the airflow.

LPG is a less powerful fuel then petrol. However it has a much higher octane number then petrol (around 120, compared to the 91/95 of petrol).

This means that most LPG installers will advance the ignition, which gives more power. You can only advance the ignition when the octane is high enough of the fuel you use.

That's often the reason you get problems when switching back to petrol, the ignition is advanced so much that the engine starts pinging when running the 95 octane petrol. No problem with the 120 octane of LPG!

Tuning the LPG system is easy, and should be done every 3 months. You can do this very easily yourself!

In the small black tube running from the evaporator (the big round thing with all the tubes connected to it) to the injector (as described above) has a regulating valve in it.

Start engine.

Get the engine to run at around 3000 RPM, get somebody in the car to help you out.

Keep the gas pedal at exactly the same place.

Slowly close the regulating valve until the engine starts to slow down, then open back up again about 1/4 turn.

This should give close to perfect tuning. Opening the valve more will only increase consumption, it will not increase power!

On the evaporator is also a regulating screw, adjust this one to regulate the LPG going to the engine at idle. (Just put it where the engine seems to run the smoothest).

Putting a bigger engine inside might not really increase economy in the city a lot, but you'll have much better power. On the highway at 110 kph economy will increase!

The main problem on an older 1.3 liter engine, is that you already do not have a lot of power to play with, put in an old style LPG system and you loose 10% of that little power on top. This means you constantly pushing your engine to the edge, just to get around, making your engine wear out faster and also use a lot of gas!

thank you so much. it was very knowledgeable. Really good to know all these. i think i still can't do the tuning by myself. somebody needs to show me first. but thanks anyway,

so what can i do now? can i add new LPG mixer module for better performance and get that 10% for the time being?.....

[monty]

You can, but it will be expensive.

If they re-use the tank / piping, count on 25,000 -30,000 Baht for the new injection system!

I personally think for that money you are better of putting in the 1.8 liter engine, and keep your current evaporator system.

Quick question, how old is the current installation? And was it new when installed?

These evaporators do wear out after a time (maybe 75,000 km) and then you're engine will not run properly and burn more LPG.

They are not that expensive to replace! (around 4,000 - 5,000 Baht I think)

[sunny747]

You can, but it will be expensive.

If they re-use the tank / piping, count on 25,000 -30,000 Baht for the new injection system!

I personally think for that money you are better of putting in the 1.8 liter engine, and keep your current evaporator system.

Quick question, how old is the current installation? And was it new when installed?

These evaporators do wear out after a time (maybe 75,000 km) and then you're engine will not run properly and burn more LPG.

They are not that expensive to replace! (around 4,000 - 5,000 Baht I think)

my Lpg system is about 6 months old. u are right, i should change to 1.8 lit .........well, i'll do it later this year. But before that i want to get the best out of my 1.3 cc.

thanks for ur support.

[hans1977]

Running on gas requires better performance of the ignition system than when running on petrol. Your ignition system might therefore be the reason why you would not get full power when running on gas.

It's common that people think the problem is their new gas installation, but there could in fact be problems with the rest of the engine system instead.

I'd suggest you renew your ignition system as much as possible, and fit an electronic ignition drive if you have an old-style mechanical points system.

/Hans

with my lancer 93, 1.3cc, i can drive 350 km with full tank in bangkok. I spent about 550 baht for full tank. So it's about 1.5 baht per KM. I was thinking of swapping my engine to 1.8 cc. The mechanic guy told me the gas consumption would be less compare to 1.3 cc. No idea though.

talking about the LPG tuning, i'm feeling i'm not getting full power. When i start my car it vibrates a lot but after few acceleration it gets better. i want to drive both in LPG and Petrol depending on the situation.

But it seems if they tune it for the LPG purpose, the petrol part doesn't work properly.

Can anybody please shed some light about the LPG tuning? Do i need to change/clean the filter/injector often? How much do they charge for lpg tuning?

thanks

[Steele404]

Has anyone got LPG with their Toyota VIOS 1.5 or know someone who has?

You guys got recommendations for places to add the LPG system? (ones that are trustworthy with waranties, looking at 30,000 baht to install one)

[monty]

Has anyone got LPG with their Toyota VIOS 1.5 or know someone who has?

You guys got recommendations for places to add the LPG system? (ones that are trustworthy with waranties, looking at 30,000 baht to install one)

What area?

The good injection systems might be a few thousand Baht over your budget but definitely worth it!

[Who, me ?]

I just ordered from one shop on Srinakarin road (Nano ) , close to DTac office

Starting price 33,000 for a basic one, 35,000 for one imported from Poland, and 38,000 for a system from Italy, with, I have been told, a much better electronic

I ordered this one at 38,000

The guy seemed to me that he knows what he is talking about, and he offered me to see some cars that were in process, and some finished. Very clean job, and (it seems to me) made by experienced staff ! will be done within 3 weeks

My 2 cents

[Gary A]

For you people converting your fuel systems, keep in mind that if the car is still under warranty, the factory warranty may become void. I was told that was the case but I emailed Ford and found out for sure. The answer was that any modifications that are not approved by Ford would void the warranty and as of right now there are no approved alternate fuel systems.

[Who, me ?]

The car which is going to be converted just turn 100,000 and 3 years ......... no worry then !

But thanks for the information, Gary A

[Steele404]

The car which is going to be converted just turn 100,000 and 3 years ......... no worry then !

But thanks for the information, Gary A

So did you got your Altis 1.6 converted at "Nano" at sirinakrin? Why will it be done in 3 weeks, it generally takes that long??

If you dont mind, can you provide me a link to the website? if not, a telephone number would be good thanks.

[Who, me ?]

The car which is going to be converted just turn 100,000 and 3 years ......... no worry then !

But thanks for the information, Gary A

So did you got your Altis 1.6 converted at "Nano" at sirinakrin? Why will it be done in 3 weeks, it generally takes that long??

If you dont mind, can you provide me a link to the website? if not, a telephone number would be good thanks.

it will be done in 3 weeks because there is a queue !! I am not the only one to give the job to this guy, so, first in first served. The job itself takes less than 2 days.

So, Nano is located next to DTAC Office on Srinakarin roag, between Bangna Trad and Theparak

Phone number: 02 386 7099 or 081 343 7155 ....ask for Kavit. He speaks little English. Hope this helps

WM

[clausewitz]

For you people converting your fuel systems, keep in mind that if the car is still under warranty, the factory warranty may become void. I was told that was the case but I emailed Ford and found out for sure. The answer was that any modifications that are not approved by Ford would void the warranty and as of right now there are no approved alternate fuel systems.

Ford take an incredibly strict line then, shocking actually. I wrote to Nissan about this issue and received this reply:

Dear Sir,

We would like to express our appreciation toward you interest in Nissan vehicles. We have detail see below.

1. Latio limit warranty 3 years / 100,000 km.

2. When you install NGV , If your engine or some parts of electrical control system malfunction or damage . After we check or investigated , if we found the root cause of problem come from the NGV installing and effected to Nissan parts, all of that damage parts will out of warranty also.

Best regards,

CALL CENTER

Siam Nissan Automobile Co.,Ltd

[Steele404]

it will be done in 3 weeks because there is a queue !! I am not the only one to give the job to this guy, so, first in first served. The job itself takes less than 2 days.

So, Nano is located next to DTAC Office on Srinakarin roag, between Bangna Trad and Theparak

Phone number: 02 386 7099 or 081 343 7155 ....ask for Kavit. He speaks little English. Hope this helps

WM

Thanks hey, I can speak perfect Thai dont worry.. I'll call them up tmrrw.

[Lancashirelad]

Now this thread leads me onto an interesting question:

Can a diesel pick-up be converted? I've not specified the make & model as its a hypothetical question for the future.

Now before some of you jump in & say "not possible" the more knowledgeable of those among you will know that indeed it is..... well at least onto CNG/LNG with larger capacity engines anyway. I've been in a 7.5 tonne truck here in the UK which was running on it and some companies such as Wiseman Dairies & Warburtons Bakers are running artics on LNG. Drivers are happy as they run quieter without diesel knock.

But can smaller diesels be converted? Onto what gas? Conversion available in Thailand?

Discuss........

apologies to the OP for leading the thread off on a tangent, but seems you'd got your answers anyway.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Lancashirelad