Cng(ngv) Or Lpg?

[lannarebirth]

Well Bubba,

As you may have noticed, I'm driving a Chevrolet Zafira, and do have some connections into Chevrolet....

Be it one of their service centers.

There seems to be more problems than pleasures with the NGV converted Optra's, this of course being an unofficial statement. So I advise your friend to think twice, if he is driving a 1.8L and the warranty would be void anyway, let him get a LPG conversion for 30 to 40 K. THB (hopefully you $60K was a typo).

---OT---

Basically car manufacturers should be called to court for their whole "warranty void" policy, by enforcing it they force buyers to keep running expensive fuels for at least 3 years after the purchase of the vehicle.

And believe me, all of them know exactly what kind of damage is to be expected depending on the alternative fuel used.

When Gasohol became the latest cry of this country, GM/Chevrolet was quick to assure that their cars where Gasohol compliant..... however the original manufacturer of the Zafira (Opel Germany) was not issuing a green light for the engines used in the Zafira's, not until March this year. So who do you have to believe.

(just something to think about)

--- OT end ---

Another tidbit: I have a friend with a Chevy Optra who contacted Chevrolet regarding an NGV conversion, since Chevrolet are now producing new Optras out of the factory with NGV. Chevrolet said that yes, they will do an NGV conversion at their service centres. They have certified NGV for their 1.6L engine and the warranty would not be voided for an NGV conversion with that engine. They can also do the conversion on the 1.8L engine, but the warranty would be voided (even done at the Chevy shop), because they have not "certified" the NGV conversion for that engine.

And the cost? Chevrolet told him about $60K.

Where would one mount the tank on a Zafira? Inside the passenger cabin? Remove the third seat? Wouldn't a gas leak asphyxiate the occupants? I ask, because I'm looking at a Zafira to buy but don't see am appropriate mounting place. i guess the same problem exists for all vans.

[sysmaster]

Well Bubba,

As you may have noticed, I'm driving a Chevrolet Zafira, and do have some connections into Chevrolet....

Be it one of their service centers.

There seems to be more problems than pleasures with the NGV converted Optra's, this of course being an unofficial statement. So I advise your friend to think twice, if he is driving a 1.8L and the warranty would be void anyway, let him get a LPG conversion for 30 to 40 K. THB (hopefully you $60K was a typo).

---OT---

Basically car manufacturers should be called to court for their whole "warranty void" policy, by enforcing it they force buyers to keep running expensive fuels for at least 3 years after the purchase of the vehicle.

And believe me, all of them know exactly what kind of damage is to be expected depending on the alternative fuel used.

When Gasohol became the latest cry of this country, GM/Chevrolet was quick to assure that their cars where Gasohol compliant..... however the original manufacturer of the Zafira (Opel Germany) was not issuing a green light for the engines used in the Zafira's, not until March this year. So who do you have to believe.

(just something to think about)

--- OT end ---

Another tidbit: I have a friend with a Chevy Optra who contacted Chevrolet regarding an NGV conversion, since Chevrolet are now producing new Optras out of the factory with NGV. Chevrolet said that yes, they will do an NGV conversion at their service centres. They have certified NGV for their 1.6L engine and the warranty would not be voided for an NGV conversion with that engine. They can also do the conversion on the 1.8L engine, but the warranty would be voided (even done at the Chevy shop), because they have not "certified" the NGV conversion for that engine.

And the cost? Chevrolet told him about $60K.

Where would one mount the tank on a Zafira? Inside the passenger cabin? Remove the third seat? Wouldn't a gas leak asphyxiate the occupants? I ask, because I'm looking at a Zafira to buy but don't see am appropriate mounting place. i guess the same problem exists for all vans.

The same question kept me back from installing LPG for a long time, I did not want to lose the third row.

the obvious alternative would be a Toroid tank in the space occupied by the spare tire, this is commonly done in EU, with all required safety certifications (meaning that the German TUV fully accepts toroid tanks)

But until now Toroids are forbidden in TH....

So back to the third row.., there are two options: they can install a tank behind the third row, not a big one of course and it is not accepted by the TH car inspection.. or you put a tank across your third row, losing the extra seats.

The best solution is to give up one seat and install a tank lengthwise, this still leaves you 6 seats to be used instead of 7, most installers are following that option now.

If it is properly done, the installation can be removed with minor traces remaining (in case the Toroids are legal in TH) and the seat can be reinstalled.

They will probably install a standard 58 liter tank, this will still allow access to the lower and rear-left storage compartments. (access to the lower compartment is required to remove your spare tire, would you however drill a large hole in that cover in the correct location to access the fixing screw, you can keep that lid closed.{remove your toolkit first}).

If you do not require access to those compartments, a substantially larger tank can be mounted.

As for the possible dangers of gas leakage in to the car, when properly installed, there is practically no possibility that gas is entering the cabin.

Properly means that the tank access points are covered with a gasket sealed box (plastic or aluminum) and that the in- and out- gas lines are packed in an extra (sealed) hose/tubing that is open to the outside of the car, any leakage will then escape though those tubings and vented to the exterior of the car.

(as done by my installer).

I have my GAS since a few weeks now and until now didn't detect (smell) any leakage in the car.

If you want an absolute failsafe, have the tank covered by an extra sealed enclosure and install a common "smoke detector" in it. Smoke detectors also detect minor traces of household gas (LPG).

[monty]

In general gas leakage is not really dangerous. LPG contains a very strong smell agent, you experience the very strong gas smell way before it gets dangerous, both explosion and asphyxiation wise!

And indeed, proper installations are completely sealed from the interior of your car, with all pipes running inside sealed tubes vented to the exterior.

[sysmaster]

They will probably install a standard 58 liter tank, this will still allow access to the lower and rear-left storage compartments. (access to the lower compartment is required to remove your spare tire, would you however drill a large hole in that cover in the correct location to access the fixing screw, you can keep that lid closed.{remove your toolkit first}).

If you do not require access to those compartments, a substantially larger tank can be mounted.

something I forgot to mention... a 58 liter tank will allow you to fill it with 43 liters of LPG....on my Zafi good for about 300 KM, but then my surplus body weight directly translates to my foot pressure on the accelerator.

[lannarebirth]

Thanks Sysmaster, for your comprehensive replies.

[monty]

something I forgot to mention... a 58 liter tank will allow you to fill it with 43 liters of LPG....on my Zafi good for about 300 KM, but then my surplus body weight directly translates to my foot pressure on the accelerator.

Seems to be a tad on the low side.

Normally you can fill to 80% which would be 46.5 liter.

My 58 liter tank cuts of at 48 liter.

In another car I have an electronic controlled (injection) LPG system, with a 68 liter tank.

Straight out of the shop it could only take 41 liter (60%)!

The installer changed the valve thing on the tank (under warranty) after which I could fill 55 liters of LPG...

[dotcom]

Sync. At about 6 pm I looked out to find the little green leaf station closed. I went down there & asked "mote mai"? Yes. Price 8.50. Will you have more tomorrow? Answer Yes.

<deleted> can't the government keep up with demand? Clowns.

[dotcom]

Thanks monty.

Any idea the difference between LPG & LNG?

If you use the wrong term the taxi drivers look at you like you are retarded.

If LNG is liquid natural gas it seems it will become very cold & go into a liquid state at maybe some rather high pressues (like 1000 bar).

[dotcom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lng

o OK. It turns to a liquid by cooling it.

[sysmaster]

Sync. At about 6 pm I looked out to find the little green leaf station closed. I went down there & asked "mote mai"? Yes. Price 8.50. Will you have more tomorrow? Answer Yes.

<deleted> can't the government keep up with demand? Clowns.

Maybe you got it wrong Dotcom, remember the first times that gasoline prices where jumping up... at that time gas stations regularly ran out of gasoline the evening before, this basically due to two factors, 1 everybody was filling up like monkeys the day before the raise, 2 some gas stations simply declared that they where out of it but in reality where holding back their cheaper stock to make a nice profit the next day.

So, maybe this is now the case for LPG as well... case 1 and/or 2 may apply

Last night one of my family members managed to get the tank filled at 13 THB per liter....

[sysmaster]

Thanks monty.

Any idea the difference between LPG & LNG?

If you use the wrong term the taxi drivers look at you like you are retarded.

If LNG is liquid natural gas it seems it will become very cold & go into a liquid state at maybe some rather high pressues (like 1000 bar).

and what is NGV then? I'm familiar with LPG, CNG, LNG, NGV is then probably a local specialty, extra spicy

[dotcom]

I think I mentioned before - it means Natural Gas Vehicle.

btw - sys - they never did get a shipment today. Is 8.50 a good price?

[sysmaster]

something I forgot to mention... a 58 liter tank will allow you to fill it with 43 liters of LPG....on my Zafi good for about 300 KM, but then my surplus body weight directly translates to my foot pressure on the accelerator.

Seems to be a tad on the low side.

Normally you can fill to 80% which would be 46.5 liter.

My 58 liter tank cuts of at 48 liter.

In another car I have an electronic controlled (injection) LPG system, with a 68 liter tank.

Straight out of the shop it could only take 41 liter (60%)!

The installer changed the valve thing on the tank (under warranty) after which I could fill 55 liters of LPG...

Thanks for the info, I'll tell them to check it once more.

on the other hand, since there are also some parts on the inside of the tank that occupy space (take volume away), I wasn't really concerned, but if your 58 liter tank can hold 46.5 liters, I would like that to happen to my tank also.

[sysmaster]

I think I mentioned before - it means Natural Gas Vehicle.

btw - sys - they never did get a shipment today. Is 8.50 a good price?

Oops, got it wrong again,assumed LPG, 8.50 is the regular price as far as I know.

And.. I didn't notice any shortage on NGV yesterday, except the normal

cycle.

[dotcom]

Yeak OK Uncle Joe Stalin sets the prices.

Do you know that other station I mentioned to you?

[sysmaster]

Yeak OK Uncle Joe Stalin sets the prices.

Do you know that other station I mentioned to you?

Nope, I rarely go into the city, and if never use On Nut road for that.

(If you are refering to that new station you mentioned)

If I'm driving somewhere and it looks that I'm running out of LPG,

I mostly switch on my GPS, the map also contains all? the gas stations,

when there are a few (normal) along a road and there is one more on the map

but I can's see a brand sign (esso/caltex etc), then until now that was

always a LPG station.

And when I'm going ito a direction that is a bit of the usual track, I tend

to check the database on the Google Earth map at home before leaving

(see one of my previous postings)

[sysmaster]

On Thai TV news they just discussed the issue of the current LPG shortage.

Apparently the tanker (ship) couldn't dock in Laem Chabang due to the lack of space.

{Whatever excuse is fitting}

It was also mentioned that there are some crooks storing the LPG until the new pricing is active....

[dotcom]

sys. The station just past New Fiber 4X4 shop & expat motors. On Udom Suk 103 & Srinakarin.

Maybe I misunderstood where you live. Sorry.

[tigerbeer]

Thanks monty.

Any idea the difference between LPG & LNG?

If you use the wrong term the taxi drivers look at you like you are retarded.

If LNG is liquid natural gas it seems it will become very cold & go into a liquid state at maybe some rather high pressues (like 1000 bar).

and what is NGV then? I'm familiar with LPG, CNG, LNG, NGV is then probably a local specialty, extra spicy

LNG is Liquefied Natural Gas and has to be stored at very cold temperatures. There are no LNG serving stations in thailand as far as I know. Its too costly, both in term of logistics and of storing.

NGV is Natural Gas for Vehicles which simply refers to Natural Gas used for vehicles. duh!. well the proper term is CNG, Compressed Natural Gas.

LPG : Liquefied petroleum gas.

After all the fiasco yesterday about LPG. I am super glad that I decided on NGV. Just did a drive from Chiang Mai to Bangkok and it cost me THB400 baht per way with filling stations all the way down. Yes you heard me right THB400. As compared to THB3,000 baht if I ran on Petrol.

I anticipated this fiasco to happen late last year and you can bet anything that there is going to be a lot more of it! They are talking about 40Bht plus equivalent per kilo of LPG in other neighboring countries, its going to come here? sure it is. just a matter of time.

TB..

[monty]

I anticipated this fiasco to happen late last year and you can bet anything that there is going to be a lot more of it! They are talking about 40Bht plus equivalent per kilo of LPG in other neighboring countries, its going to come here? sure it is. just a matter of time.

Would still be acceptable to me!

1 kilo LPG is over 1.8 liters, working out to about 22 Baht/liter.

I have 1 major problem, our cars are mostly used for airport runs, a round trip being 230 km. The closest NGV station is 25 km away in exactly the other direction then the airport.

Our cars would get a maximum of around 160-170 km on a filling of NGV.

So on 1 airport trip we would run 170 km on NGV and 110km on petrol.

Which would be more expensive then running on LPG at 22 Baht/liter.

Additionally, having a 90 kg tank in the trunk, along with all the luggage of the passengers will not be a good idea...

Even with more filling station, the range really would be a killer...Passengers wouldn't appreciate the wait queuing up for filling up...

[tigerbeer]

I anticipated this fiasco to happen late last year and you can bet anything that there is going to be a lot more of it! They are talking about 40Bht plus equivalent per kilo of LPG in other neighboring countries, its going to come here? sure it is. just a matter of time.

Would still be acceptable to me!

1 kilo LPG is over 1.8 liters, working out to about 22 Baht/liter.

I have 1 major problem, our cars are mostly used for airport runs, a round trip being 230 km. The closest NGV station is 25 km away in exactly the other direction then the airport.

Our cars would get a maximum of around 160-170 km on a filling of NGV.

So on 1 airport trip we would run 170 km on NGV and 110km on petrol.

Which would be more expensive then running on LPG at 22 Baht/liter.

Additionally, having a 90 kg tank in the trunk, along with all the luggage of the passengers will not be a good idea...

Even with more filling station, the range really would be a killer...Passengers wouldn't appreciate the wait queuing up for filling up...

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

[intumult]

After running my LPG conversion from diesel to a 2.5 litre Toyota engine + LPG about 6 months ago:-

Initially a few concerns over the engine running smoothly and the power loss.

Also overheating problems.

I had the engine checked over and the main prolem was down to the second radiator fan cutting out. Took some time and 3 garages to discover the problem.

I run the engine on LPG all the time unless I cannot find an LPG gas station and have to switch to 90 Octane.

2 recent trips from Nakhon Sawan to Pattaya cost me 650 Bhat each way. 1 tank full does the trip to Pattaya. Well over 1,000 baht E.W. on Diesel at older prices. Maybe nearer 1,500 Baht now.

Average cost per kilometre 2 baht on a long trip. Top speed of 130 KPH

Costs around town 2.75 Baht Kilometre

All in all I am more than happy with the conversion.

[clausewitz]

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

After reading the weekend papers and the comments by the Ministry of TraNSPORT this weekend I am going to go with NGV. .

NOw where in Bangkok can I get the NGV conversion done?? Anyone have contact details.

Edited July 2, 2008 by clausewitz

[dotcom]

I need to correct something I said. The little Green Leaf station downstairs (Onnut 30) is CNG. Price 8.50 (the junk should be sold by weight not volume)

Yesterday they had supplies. I notice they load the fuel via the hood instead of the back like LNG.

[sysmaster]

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

After reading the weekend papers and the comments by the Ministry of TraNSPORT this weekend I am going to go with NGV. .

NOw where in Bangkok can I get the NGV conversion done?? Anyone have contact details.

I don't know where you live, but the company I went also does NGV, what's more, their own gas station supplies NGV to (about 100 up that same road).

website: http://www.ps-pornsak.com they are located on On Nut Road, close to the intersection with Udom Suk Road (next to the outer ring road -- east side).

And as I mentioned, if required, they have English speaking staff.

[yamatokh]

I need to correct something I said. The little Green Leaf station downstairs (Onnut 30) is CNG. Price 8.50 (the junk should be sold by weight not volume)

Yesterday they had supplies. I notice they load the fuel via the hood instead of the back like LNG.

My quote from another forum:

I came across a Nisson dealer who also install NGV and LPG for all brands of cars. They have a show case to show you exactly what parts they use with brand name print on them and certificates (All parts are from Italy, there are 3 brands mixed. The tank is from Thailand with government certification). I haven't yet see a shop outside that show you detail like that and it really give you a peace of mind to have installation done there. But the price is not cheap though, for a 4 cylinder runs 50,500. If want to upgrade the tank size adds 1000 for one size upgrade, there are total of 3 sizes available. Their NGV installation is 60K, parts I did not see, but was told from Italy as well, the tank is from PTT.......

So if anyone would like to install NGV, I highly recommand to install there. This dealer is located on Sinakarin road. If you comes from Bangna-Trad (Novotel Bangna) goes towards Seacon Square, after you pass Seacon, it's about 1Km driving and the it will be on your right hand side. (If you reach intersection for of Jusco, you have gone too far).

Hope this helps.

[clausewitz]

I need to correct something I said. The little Green Leaf station downstairs (Onnut 30) is CNG. Price 8.50 (the junk should be sold by weight not volume)

Yesterday they had supplies. I notice they load the fuel via the hood instead of the back like LNG.

My quote from another forum:

I came across a Nisson dealer who also install NGV and LPG for all brands of cars. They have a show case to show you exactly what parts they use with brand name print on them and certificates (All parts are from Italy, there are 3 brands mixed. The tank is from Thailand with government certification). I haven't yet see a shop outside that show you detail like that and it really give you a peace of mind to have installation done there. But the price is not cheap though, for a 4 cylinder runs 50,500. If want to upgrade the tank size adds 1000 for one size upgrade, there are total of 3 sizes available. Their NGV installation is 60K, parts I did not see, but was told from Italy as well, the tank is from PTT.......

So if anyone would like to install NGV, I highly recommand to install there. This dealer is located on Sinakarin road. If you comes from Bangna-Trad (Novotel Bangna) goes towards Seacon Square, after you pass Seacon, it's about 1Km driving and the it will be on your right hand side. (If you reach intersection for of Jusco, you have gone too far).

Hope this helps.

sounds good do you know the name and phone number. i speak Thai .

[dotcom]

The first set of lights you come to is Onnut.

Jusco is at Phattakarn - a good ways past that.

[clausewitz]

Yes you mentioned a few times about your constraints on the fueling stations for NGV. I do get 230km per filling though Monty.

For others, please consider NGV. If for not any other sake, running a car on NGV is extremely friendly to the environment. Although it being costly to install to start off with but you see a big saving after a few months and realise that you have paid the installation off. I am very close to paying off mine. On petrol i would be spending between THB12k to 16k per month, now i pay between 1k to 1.5K.

After reading the weekend papers and the comments by the Ministry of TraNSPORT this weekend I am going to go with NGV. .

NOw where in Bangkok can I get the NGV conversion done?? Anyone have contact details.

I don't know where you live, but the company I went also does NGV, what's more, their own gas station supplies NGV to (about 100 up that same road).

website: http://www.ps-pornsak.com they are located on On Nut Road, close to the intersection with Udom Suk Road (next to the outer ring road -- east side).

And as I mentioned, if required, they have English speaking staff.

I spoke to a mechanic on the phone who said d they don't do NGV(Only LPG) but as there is a lot of extension numbers I may have got a section that only deals with LPG. I tried to get the operator but they didn't pick up.

[clausewitz]

Jeez

I just spoke with sirisaeng in Din Daeng and they have a waiting list that begins in September.