Government To Hasten Introducing E85 Gasohol In 3-6 Months

[george]

Government to hasten introducing E85 gasohol in 3-6 months

BANGKOK: -- In a bid to boost energy conservation in Thailand, the government plans to accelerate making E-85 gasohol available for sale in service stations within 3-6 months

Speaking of the resolution of the economic ministers' meeting chaired by Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej on Monday evening, Deputy Prime Minister Surapong Suebwonglee in his capacity as Finance Minister said many energy-saving measures had been proposed and approved.

One of them is to introduce E85 gasohol, a mixture of 85 per cent ethanol and 15 per cent gasoline, to the market within the next 3-6 months and cut the excise tax on vehicles using the alternative fuel.

He believed that the E85 gasohol would be available for sale at 30-50 service stations at that time.

Should motorists turn to use the alternative fuel, he said, it would help reduce oil imports by more than Bt97 billion per year.

Regarding a plan to promote the use of natural gas for vehicles (NGV), he said its price would be kept unchanged at 8.50 baht per kilogramme until the end of this year.

Then, the price would be adjusted reasonably, but would not exceed 12 baht per kilo.

Dr. Surapong said the government would encourage plans to lay a gas pipeline, increase the number of petrol stations where NGV is available to 300 in the next few years, extend the period of tax reduction and exemptions on using NGV kit imports to 2012, and study the possibility of importing a set of NGV cylinder and kits from China for sale because it is priced at only Bt30,000.

The minister said the measures that would be implemented immediately include an instruction for state agencies to set air-conditioner temperatures at 25-26 Celsius and permission for state employees whose jobs do not involve direct public service to work at home.

-- TNA 2008-05-27

[Tywais]

Does anyone in the government do ecological/economic impact studies regarding this? Farmers moving crops to support bio-fuel by replacing rice fields and other crops with what they think is more profitable. This is a concern in other countries that are migrating more towards gasohol fuel.

[h90]

Does anyone in the government do ecological/economic impact studies regarding this? Farmers moving crops to support bio-fuel by replacing rice fields and other crops with what they think is more profitable. This is a concern in other countries that are migrating more towards gasohol fuel.

cynic

Well what is the alternative solution? Well we could drive small cars which need 4 liter/100 km instead of a SUV with 20 liter/km or go with the train sometimes. But no serious person even consider that. Instead better use Alcohol and let some poor die.

/cynic

[Tywais]

cynic

Well what is the alternative solution? Well we could drive small cars which need 4 liter/100 km instead of a SUV with 20 liter/km or go with the train sometimes. But no serious person even consider that. Instead better use Alcohol and let some poor die.

/cynic

I'm not discounting the importance of it, just that it needs to be planned properly to prevent the issues I mentioned. But yes, when it comes to the government and priorities, I am a cynic.

[h90]

cynic

Well what is the alternative solution? Well we could drive small cars which need 4 liter/100 km instead of a SUV with 20 liter/km or go with the train sometimes. But no serious person even consider that. Instead better use Alcohol and let some poor die.

/cynic

I'm not discounting the importance of it, just that it needs to be planned properly to prevent the issues I mentioned. But yes, when it comes to the government and priorities, I am a cynic.

(not complete serious, but an idea)

The solution in the west would be to add another 20 % tax on the gasoline and reduce other taxes to keep the total tax the same, to push into energy saving. Actually when you look on the street, gasoline is still too expensive.

As well it is complete sick that the trucks (private cars as well) go up and down the south in Thailand while there is an almost unused railway.

(I know there wasn't much investment since Rama V). But it could take a 5 % of the traffic without any investment.

[Thai at Heart]

Does anyone in the government do ecological/economic impact studies regarding this? Farmers moving crops to support bio-fuel by replacing rice fields and other crops with what they think is more profitable. This is a concern in other countries that are migrating more towards gasohol fuel.

Doubt in the long run it will be any more profitable than growing sugar cane now. Thailand already exports 60% of it's sugar so USD for sugar exports in a volatile market or dump ethanol into gasoline? Not sure of the economic balance, but it simply means slightly less requirement for importation of oil.

[Galong]

Does most of Southern Thailand really need to be covered in rubber trees? Jathropa, switchgrass and a very promising algae farming method all make much more sense than sugar cane, corn (really dumb idea unless you're a corn farmer already ). My point is that fuel crops don't necessarily have to compete will food crops.

Why wouldn't any serious person consider not driving a gas-guzzling SUV? Conservation is the best choice of all options. It beats cheating the system with carbon credit and other silly ideas that only make rich people think that they're actually doing something helpful. God forbid someone has to do without something they want... especially if it's just for the common good! That'd be down-right communist!

[ThaiAdventure]

Does anyone in the government do ecological/economic impact studies regarding this? Farmers moving crops to support bio-fuel by replacing rice fields and other crops with what they think is more profitable. This is a concern in other countries that are migrating more towards gasohol fuel.

Doubt in the long run it will be any more profitable than growing sugar cane now. Thailand already exports 60% of it's sugar so USD for sugar exports in a volatile market or dump ethanol into gasoline? Not sure of the economic balance, but it simply means slightly less requirement for importation of oil.

Brazil have been using E100 for years.

Ethanol Fuel in Brazil

It's derived from (you guessed it) sugar cane. Not much of a change really for many Thai farmers! I think this is probably a pretty smart move, not for environmental reasons but for thailand to reduce it's dependency on oil imports. They could (in theory) be virtually self sufficient (like Indonesia) since currently they only import about 60% of thier oil requirements.

Edited May 27, 2008 by ThaiAdventure

[Farma]

Just curious, how many cars on the market at the moment are E85 ready?

[stumonster]

I wonder where the modified fuel systems and engines will be introduced

E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to injection approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

[ThaiAdventure]

Just curious, how many cars on the market at the moment are E85 ready?

Not many.

Nearly all modern cars will run fine on E10. Most manufacturers recommend engine modification > E20

[Thai at Heart]

Does anyone in the government do ecological/economic impact studies regarding this? Farmers moving crops to support bio-fuel by replacing rice fields and other crops with what they think is more profitable. This is a concern in other countries that are migrating more towards gasohol fuel.

Doubt in the long run it will be any more profitable than growing sugar cane now. Thailand already exports 60% of it's sugar so USD for sugar exports in a volatile market or dump ethanol into gasoline? Not sure of the economic balance, but it simply means slightly less requirement for importation of oil.

Brazil have been using E100 for years.

Ethanol Fuel in Brazil

It's derived from (you guessed it) sugar cane. Not much of a change really for many Thai farmers! I think this is probably a pretty smart move, not for environmental reasons but for thailand to reduce it's dependency on oil imports. They could (in theory) be virtually self sufficient (like Indonesia) since currently they only import about 60% of thier oil requirements.

It will bring another source of domestic demand to the market for sugar which can't be a bad thing for farmers. It will marginally reduce the total amount of oil required for import. Would it be bad for the refined sugar industry? Definitely. These buggars are probably more responsible for the worlds health problems than tobacco. If anyone can give me one benefit the refined sugar industry brings to the world, please inform me. Buggar Coca-Cola, drink water and eat an orange instead.

It will in the long term be in Thailand's benefit. As far as I know, Brazil exports ethanol also so it may become a nice foreign currency earner too. Will it be allowed to impinge on Thailand's food productivity, I doubt it very much.

Whether they can pull it all together into a proper working long term policy is in the hands of ...... oooops, politicians. Let's see what happens.

[Thai at Heart]

I wonder where the modified fuel systems and engines will be introduced

E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to injection approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

All new model Hondas run on E80, just bought one

[Thai at Heart]

I wonder where the modified fuel systems and engines will be introduced

E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to injection approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

All new model Hondas run on E80, just bought one

E20, correction

[ThaiAdventure]

I wonder where the modified fuel systems and engines will be introduced

E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to injection approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

All new model Hondas run on E80, just bought one

Thats unfortunate for you...they are introducing E85

[Thai at Heart]

I wonder where the modified fuel systems and engines will be introduced

E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to injection approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

All new model Hondas run on E80, just bought one

Thats unfortunate for you...they are introducing E85

Got confused, apologies. There are absolutely no cars on the Thai market as far as I know that can take E85. E20 fuels are supposed to be rolled out in the next year or so. There is an excise benefit on all new Hondas to encourage. Where this E85 capable supply of cars is supposed to come from who knows.

[PeaceBlondie]

Label me a cynic as well, toward easy press-release statements by Thai politicians. They met, decided that all of Thailand really needs to make many awesomely monstrous changes to its infrastructure and its modern culture. They set an unobtainable goal, appropriated little or no funds, and adjourned for whiskey and soda at the country club.

[ThaiAdventure]

Label me a cynic as well, toward easy press-release statements by Thai politicians. They met, decided that all of Thailand really needs to make many awesomely monstrous changes to its infrastructure and its modern culture. They set an unobtainable goal, appropriated little or no funds, and adjourned for whiskey and soda at the country club.

Pretty much sums it up!

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.

Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

Edited May 27, 2008 by ThaiAdventure

[tracker]

It would make thailand completely independent from oil if they adopted the brazil idea. It would be also good for agriculture, since almost every crop can be used for making alcohol (some require more or less steps to make the mass suitable for fermentation), which means that even ground, not suitable for foodcrops, can be used for alcohol-production (e.g. use the mesquite tree). Over the years the ground would be turned into good growing ground provided they not using any (oil-based) fertilizers.

Most older cars, not suitable for E85 can be modified (provided their compression ratio is > 1:8)

Actually, its a win-win situation for thailand going into alcohol-fuel.... Now only if those rich oil-boys would take a hike... (please do..)

[Plus]

I'm very sceptic about supposed benefits of growing crops for cars instead of food.

For starters Thailand doesn't have enough land for food crops as it is.

In Brazil they are happily destroying rain forests to make land for ethanol production, god knows what it will do to their country in long term, they never think about conservation, they want to learn form their own mistakes.

In Thailand food prices are very important for an awful of people, ethanol production on such scale will drive food beyond the reach for millions.

God knows what it will do to Thailand's competitiveness in the world market, too.

That's one big decision by a bunch of fart bags on otherwise non-descript afternoon before adjourning for a round of golf.

I'm glad that fuel import problem has been solved, though. Keep up the good work, guys. Next week let's issue a decree on stopping guerilla war in the South.

[PeaceBlondie]

Most older cars, not suitable for E85 can be modified (provided their compression ratio is > 1:8)

Actually, its a win-win situation for thailand going into alcohol-fuel.... Now only if those rich oil-boys would take a hike... (please do..)

I just bought another version of my 2003 motorbike. Compression ratio is the same for 2008, 11:1. Check your owner's manual. I imagine even my standard 1997 Nissan NV (with dohc and 16 valves) is way over 9.5:1. Modifying compression ratio requires new pistons. That, plus the reduced firepower of ethanol, would equate to a power loss of maybe 25%. It sounds more like a lose-lose situation.

[dominique355]

(not complete serious, but an idea)

The solution in the west would be to add another 20 % tax on the gasoline and reduce other taxes to keep the total tax the same, to push into energy saving. Actually when you look on the street, gasoline is still too expensive.

As well it is complete sick that the trucks (private cars as well) go up and down the south in Thailand while there is an almost unused railway.

(I know there wasn't much investment since Rama V). But it could take a 5 % of the traffic without any investment.

Yeah right! When did that ever happen?

[Galong]

Label me a cynic as well, toward easy press-release statements by Thai politicians. They met, decided that all of Thailand really needs to make many awesomely monstrous changes to its infrastructure and its modern culture. They set an unobtainable goal, appropriated little or no funds, and adjourned for whiskey and soda at the country club.

There is a bright side.... at least they didn't use the word HUB this time.

It's my understanding that all cars built before 2007 will have 0-ring problems from the ethanol eating away at the rubber components. That sounds expensive, probably more than a few tanks of fuel too.

[Galong]

I'm very sceptic about supposed benefits of growing crops for cars instead of food.

For starters Thailand doesn't have enough land for food crops as it is.

Have you done much driving in the south? Most of the land is used to grow rubber trees. I don't think they're a food crop.

[Thaddeus]

It would make thailand completely independent from oil if they adopted the brazil idea.

I don't think so.

Most older cars, not suitable for E85 can be modified (provided their compression ratio is > 1:8)

Buses, lorries, tractors, iron-buffalo and thousands if not millions of two wheeled vehicles may have a problem though, no.

[tigerbeer]

they change policies faster than anything else i notice. one day its e10, another day e20, now e85, sometimes ngv.sometimes eco cars.

a newspaper article even mentioned one minister who thinks people should not rely on ngv cause prices can be volatile and hence should instead concentrate on solar and wind power. still wondering where the connection is ...

[Gary A]

I think most people are missing the main point. The money spent on alternative fuels will stay in the country rather than going out of the country to OPEC and creating a huge trade imbalance. Hopefully more of Thailand's farm land will be utilized if the farmers have a market for their products. If you have traveled throughout Thailand you will have seen a LOT of marginal land sitting idle. Farmers can't make any money trying to grow conventional food crops on marginal farmland.

[stumonster]

a newspaper article even mentioned one minister who thinks people should not rely on ngv cause prices can be volatile and hence should instead concentrate on solar and wind power. still wondering where the connection is ...

yes , it will be sails and solar panels on song taews , and the energy saving will be multiplied as the low hanging power lines get torn down. - you do have to wonder how much electrical power is squandered due to bad electrical practices.

[Plus]

Rubber planations is not a food crop, but should Thailand squeeze a successful export industry to produce ethanol for fuel?

Besides, those new planations will depend on fertilisers that depend on oil price - high fertiliser cost is blamed on the current rise in food crops prices.

Has the government commissioned any real study on long term effects of their proposal? I don't think so.

>>>

"Lots of unused land" - you need a real revolution to take that land away from its owners.

>>>

We inquired about the cost of upgrading last year Camry from e10 to e20. About 80,000 baht. Converting to E85? Forget about it.

[Cuban]

Gas stations will be huge - two forms of 'gas' gas and about 6-8 types of gas/diesel on offer.

I saw on Bloomberg last night the headline - Thailand to introduce a new railway line....

Any ideas where?