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[sylviex]

Should we not at least let Khun Dee know about what we have talked about here, and that conclusion ? Just briefly, of course .

(I have felt slightly uncomfortable all along about the fact that he has not been a participant in this discussion.)

[Ulysses G.]

I find it is very easy to over-complicate different issues with Thais when I try to explain every thought to them in stilted Thai. If I could speak Thai like Joe Cummings, I would probably mention it and ask for Khun Dee's opinion, but almost none of us is anywhere close to Joe's level. I think that if it was important, my Thai employee would bring it up to him and they would sort it out between them, but I have a feeling that she feels that he does not need to be part of the decision on this.

If anyone does not agree, I have no problem with someone bringing it up with him, but please make sure that he is getting an accurate translation.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[eek]

We all agreed that no final decision on this would have been made without consultation with Khun Dee.

This project is new, and who knows if the enthusiasm will die down, or if the funds raised will be ongoing sufficient for the cats as stands. If we were to (in collaboration with Khun Dee) officially further promote the Temple I think it should be done so with a good backup of funds raised. Of course the catch is that in order to raise funds, one needs to promote, but, with the project being new, i would say its also wise to take baby steps and tread carefully. As the fund is just at a starting stage, it at least can cover the cats at present, and help to keep them good health. Last thing I think Khun Dee or the Temple needs is to be overwhelmed by work. I also think it would put a burden on us to raise more funds, as would be wrong for us to walk away. At the same time, many of us dont have time, and are trying to do just as much as we possibly can. So.... would be better to re-evaluate a little further down the line, right?

As for letting Khun Dee know what has been discussed, maybe it would just give him undue concern. Nothing bigger is planned at present (promotion-wise), so why not wait and see if the fund does well, then re-evaluate, then, if decided it would be good to do more, discuss the idea of further promoting the Temple with Khun Dee then?

Btw: how is the fund coming along UG? tnx!

[Ulysses G.]

This is one of the things that I'm thinking about. We have a good amount of food and enough cash to fix all the cats, but after that, we won't have a great deal left for emergencies and medical expences ( The woman who is taking care of the funds is not here right now, so I can't be exact). As I've said many times, almost all of our funds have come from TVers and it is very possible that most of the people who want to help already have. I would like to keep things as manageable as possible, so that if just a few of us are able to help them in the future, we will be able to afford it.

I am guessing that no one has contributed for more than a month (although it is possible that someone did, but no one bothered to mention it to me).

Food doesn't seem to be a big problem, but we want to fix ALL of them and keep them happy and in the best health possible.

If the whole thing stays small, we should be able to swing it, but if the place gets too famous, with too many animals, it could become difficult to manage.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Calico]

I've just learned that we'll be published in the next issue of Cat Tails, which is a free weekly, and in the August issue of Catnip Chronicles. I'd like to think that means a few overseas dollars will trickle into my PayPal account, so I can make a donation at Gecko. It won't be enough for the long-term solution we're shooting for here, but it's something.

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks again Calico. Every bit helps!

[sylviex]

As for letting Khun Dee know what has been discussed, maybe it would just give him undue concern.

I understand that but I am pretty sure another Thai would know how to have a chat with him on the subject without causing him concern. It might give him encouragement to know people have sent money from other countries, for instance. It just doesn't feel quite right not to give the main carer some idea of what's been done & discussed and to gain his perspective on things.

[Ulysses G.]

I get what you are saying, but it also might get him overly excited about future possibilities and leave him dissapointed if things pretty much remain at the level that they are now.

[sylviex]

I get what you are saying, but it also might get him overly excited about future possibilities and leave him dissapointed if things pretty much remain at the level that they are now.

And I did wonder the same, but again, I am sure another Thai would know how to deal with any such propensity.

Are we not patronising him a little ?

[Ulysses G.]

Perhaps, but I do find that most Thais do not think the way that we do. I try to do my best to minimize cultural misunderstandings.

[sylviex]

I try to do my best to minimize cultural misunderstandings.

By avoiding all communication ? (just kidding)

Light has finally dawned regarding a certain *material* aspect of the program, hitherto largely unconsidered by me, which is a well known subject of cultural misunderstandings and is no doubt influencing some of the caution shown in this thread.

Could someone scratch their nose if I am now on the right path ?

[Bill97]

I try to do my best to minimize cultural misunderstandings.

By avoiding all communication ? (just kidding)

Light has finally dawned regarding a certain *material* aspect of the program, hitherto largely unconsidered by me, which is a well known subject of cultural misunderstandings and is no doubt influencing some of the caution shown in this thread.

Could someone scratch their nose if I am now on the right path ?

Avoiding communication is often the path chosen by Thais for a variety of good reasons and may well be the appropriate in this situation.

All of your hints did not help. What do you mean by "a certain *material* aspect of the program"?

[Ulysses G.]

All I know is that my employee seems dead set against letting too many Thais find out about the Sanctuary. I was advised against it by farangs in the animal rescue business also - and she does not seem to feel the need to to confer with Khun Dee. I know that she is using her own time and money to help out and has the cat's best interests at heart and she is Thai and I trust her, so I am following her lead.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[sylviex]

That's fine, but I don't understand why it would preclude having a talk with Khun Dee ?? He has been and is the main carer of the cats.

Bill, I thought perhaps there was some caution about potential for misuse of funds; something that can & does occur anywhere.

P.S.

Avoiding communication is often the path chosen by Thais for a variety of good reasons and may well be the appropriate in this situation.

I am well aware that Thais sometimes choose this path. What I have no clue about is why we would not wish to be in communication with the person caring for the cats at the wat.

Edited July 29, 2008 by sylviex

[Ulysses G.]

I said before that I have no problem with someone talking with Khun Dee if they think that their Thai is up to being understood well.

I just don't see any reason to arrange a big pow wow with translators to consult him about writing articles for the Thai press since most people who have given an opinion either don't think we should do it, or don't seem real upbeat on the idea. I am including the opinions of the pros who do this kind of thing full time.

If you want to ask him, you could share your findings here.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Bill97]

That's fine, but I don't understand why it would preclude having a talk with Khun Dee ?? He has been and is the main carer of the cats.

Bill, I thought perhaps there was some caution about potential for misuse of funds; something that can & does occur anywhere.

P.S.

Avoiding communication is often the path chosen by Thais for a variety of good reasons and may well be the appropriate in this situation.

I am well aware that Thais sometimes choose this path. What I have no clue about is why we would not wish to be in communication with the person caring for the cats at the wat.

Seems to me that UG is overlooking the use of the funds and that he knows how to look after money.

I do not think that anybody is suggesting that there should not be communications with Khun Dee. Communications about the immediate issues of taking care of the cats are clearly appropriate. Clear communications, not numerous people confusing him with what he perceives as different directions.

Communications about publicity, possible future growth of the program or other possibilities are more likely to cause unnecessary concern or misunderstandings with unintended results. Unless of course you are truly fluent in Thai, can represent the views of the supporters of the program and have sufficient experience working with Thais so that you can correctly anticipate the range of possible responses that Khun Dee might have and never communicate to you and the unwanted things he might do because he thought they were what you wanted.

This seemed to be a good project when I first started reading about it but now with the publicity issues, grow and get famous issues, confusion about how to deal with Khun Dee and the Temple, my support is on hold. Too many cooks and too large a menu.

[Priceless]

I am a bit confused as to what we should confer with Khun Dee about. Are we supposed to tell him that we considered starting a "PR campaign" but decided against it? What would his interest be?

I agree with those that have pointed out that the "project" is still in early days. We need to ensure that we can sustain the support for the present number of cats, before we take the risk of Khun Dee getting a lot more to take care of. If we should even ask him whether he would be willing to do that, we ought to be able to, more or less, "guarantee" the financial and other support that he would need. I realize that we are facing a "chicken and egg" situation, but think it would be wiser to err on the side of caution.

We must not forget that Khun Dee is caring for the cats out of the goodness of his heart, he is not being paid or getting any other benefit from it. To quote him as to why he does it: "The cats are my children".

/ Priceless

[sylviex]

I said before that I have no problem with someone talking with Khun Dee if they think that their Thai is up to being understood well.

My Thai is far from being at that level. As I recall, nobody else contributing to this thread has felt confident about that, either. I think there was some sentiment expressed earlier that a fellow Thai would be best, for cultural reasons, too. I thought the last person - and perhaps the only person - suggested as having that level was one of the Ghecko staff. I am not clear if this person is the one who "does not see the need to confer with Khun Dee".

I just don't see any reason to arrange a big pow wow with translators to consult him about writing articles for the Thai press since most people who have given an opinion either don't think we should do it, or don't seem real upbeat on the idea.

Nor do I.

Please see my posts above.

I said :

Should we not at least let Khun Dee know about what we have talked about here, and that conclusion ? Just briefly, of course .

I am just talking about including him in some way in some of the things we've discussed, and the conclusions reached. Just seems sensible and practical, as well as polite.

Eek said :

We all agreed that no final decision on this would have been made without consultation with Khun Dee.

and I had been under the same impression.

What do the others think ? Worthwhile or a not to communicate with Khun Dee ?

[sylviex]

Bill & Priceless - thanks for adding your perspectives.

I am a bit confused as to what we should confer with Khun Dee about. Are we supposed to tell him that we considered starting a "PR campaign" but decided against it? What would his interest be?

Yes, we could tell him we had considered an interview/article about him & the cats for the Thai press but decided it against due to concerns about him and the wat being overwhelmed, and because we have no means of ensuring the current level of support will continue.

We could also tell him some articles have appeared in the English language press. He might simply like to know that and have a copy to show his grandkids.

Clear communications, not numerous people confusing him with what he perceives as different directions.

Yes; that's precisely why we were discussing it here.

Edited July 29, 2008 by sylviex

[eek]

What i meant was, if we were going to go ahead with promoting the sanctuary on a bigger level, and we know we could cover the costs, then a suitable person would discuss our idea then with Khun Dee.

Personally I dont really see the point in discussing something that we all have agreed we do not think is a good idea and responsibility-wise cannot carry out at this stage.

If i was in Khun Dee's shoes and someone came to tell me that some people were thinking to find ways to promote the sanctuary, but now have decided its not a good idea as they are unsure if they could help financially, or if he would have the man power to cope, I would think why on earth am i being told this. Now, if I were Khun Dee and someone came to me to ask my thoughts on the sanctuary being promoted because there is/or believe there will be enough financial aid to help cover costs and if he has the man-power, that i could understand.

Things are ticking along, the situation is going along nicely, the cats are in good health. I think anything extra that is pie in the sky is unnecessary information to be honest. I understand your concern, but I personally cannot see the value in discussing it with Khun Dee.

[sylviex]

Eek, fair enough (though if I were Khun Dee I *would* want to know ).

However, is he even aware there had been an article in CM Mail ? and that we have set up a bank a/c and a loosely-knit support group ? I just feel that would give him encouragement and some well-deserved praise for doing something that's a little exceptional here.

[Ulysses G.]

Seems to me that UG is overlooking the use of the funds and that he knows how to look after money.

One of my staff that Priceless suggested is managing the money, however, I do look over her shoulder every once in a while and I try to keep Priceless up on how the fund is doing. I am perfectly willing to show anyone what we have collected and where the funds have gone.

She is the one who doesn't seem to feel that we need to consult Khun Dee about the decision on more publicity for the Cat Sanctuary as she doesn't want to expand fund raising to the Thai community. I don't want to push her to go talk to him about this issue because she uses a lot of her own time already going there and I think that she is right. However, it was more the advice I got from other Animal Rescue people that made me wary of publicizing with Thais and her opinion convinced me.

The truth is that I can tell that she doesn't want to do it, and I don't like forcing her to do something that she thinks is a waste of her time.

Remember that she is Thai and perhaps has her own reasons for not making him part of the decision that she is not going to explain to me. They don't like to explain every move they make, farang style. I have gotten to the point when dealing with Thais where I don't try to force the issue. If it is someone I trust, I just let them get on with it.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[sylviex]

One of my staff that Priceless suggested is managing the money, however, I do look over her shoulder every once in a while and I try to keep Priceless up on how the fund is doing. I am perfectly willing to show anyone what we have collected and where the funds have gone.

I am not suggesting ANY impropriety about the finances and I am absolutely certain nobody else would. I merely mentioned the funds because there seemed to be some aspect to this discussion I was missing, and it suddenly occurred to be that might be it.

She is the one who doesn't seem to feel that we need to consult Khun Dee about the decision on more publicity for the Cat Sanctuary as she doesn't want to expand fund raising to the Thai community. I don't want to push her to go talk to him about this issue because she uses a lot of her own time already going there and I think that she is right. However, it was more the advice I got from other Animal Rescue people that made me wary of publicizing with Thais and her opinion convinced me. The truth is that I can tell that she doesn't want to do it, and I don't like forcing her to do something that she thinks is a waste of her time. Remember that she is Thai and perhaps has her own reasons for not making him part of the decision that she is not going to explain to me.

Understand completely; that possibility had occurred to me and there could be any number of reasons behind it.

Is she happy to communicate with Khun Dee about other, more practical stuff ?

[Bill97]

Eek, fair enough (though if I were Khun Dee I *would* want to know ).

However, is he even aware there had been an article in CM Mail ? and that we have set up a bank a/c and a loosely-knit support group ? I just feel that would give him encouragement and some well-deserved praise for doing something that's a little exceptional here.

Are your views on this question of communication based on the culture you brought with you or on your experience of working with Thais over many years?

Maybe he just wants to continue his relationship with the cats on a day to day basis and would be upset or offended if he was praised or considered to be doing something exceptional, bringing him into the limelight. He might just quit if he knew there was an article in a newspaper about what he was doing. He may well prefer to lay low and be largely anonymous. Maybe he has zero interest in making any commitment to the activity with a bunch of farangs or even one farang messing with his head.

[Ulysses G.]

sylviex Today, 2008-07-29 19:37:17 Post #303

Is she happy to communicate with Khun Dee about other, more practical stuff ?

Yes, she likes him and values what he is doing. Perhaps, she feels that (I am only guessing) he is not "worldly" enough to understand what making The Cat Santuary famous might do to it in a negative way.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[sylviex]

Are your views on this question of communication based on the culture you brought with you or on your experience of working with Thais over many years?

Difficult to say what culture I "brought with me". It's a long time since I have lived in my home country. I have decades of experience with Asian culture.

Maybe he just wants to continue his relationship with the cats on a day to day basis and would be upset or offended if he was praised or considered to be doing something exceptional, bringing him into the limelight. He might just quit if he knew there was an article in a newspaper about what he was doing. He may well prefer to lay low and be largely anonymous. Maybe he has zero interest in making any commitment to the activity with a bunch of farangs or even one farang messing with his head.

He might; he might not. That's why it might be good to get to know him a little so we can sound him out a little about his feelings.

The Asian style of developing any kind of relationship is, initially, mostly about spending time together and getting to know one another. We need to do this with Khun Dee in some form or other, I believe.

Yes, she likes him and values what he is doing. Perhaps, she feels that (I am only guessing) he is not "worldly" enough to understand what making The Cat Santuary famous might do to it in a negative way.

I see.

[Priceless]

Are your views on this question of communication based on the culture you brought with you or on your experience of working with Thais over many years?

Difficult to say what culture I "brought with me". It's a long time since I have lived in my home country. I have decades of experience with Asian culture.

Maybe he just wants to continue his relationship with the cats on a day to day basis and would be upset or offended if he was praised or considered to be doing something exceptional, bringing him into the limelight. He might just quit if he knew there was an article in a newspaper about what he was doing. He may well prefer to lay low and be largely anonymous. Maybe he has zero interest in making any commitment to the activity with a bunch of farangs or even one farang messing with his head.

He might; he might not. That's why it might be good to get to know him a little so we can sound him out a little about his feelings.

The Asian style of developing any kind of relationship is, initially, mostly about spending time together and getting to know one another. We need to do this with Khun Dee in some form or other, I believe.

Yes, she likes him and values what he is doing. Perhaps, she feels that (I am only guessing) he is not "worldly" enough to understand what making The Cat Santuary famous might do to it in a negative way.

I see.

I can't claim to know Khun Dee, as my Thai is even more limited than his English. My impression, however, is that he is a rather retiring and "unworldly" person who likes to spend whatever free time he has with the cats. My guess is that if we start wanting to "spend more time" with him, this may just as well result in him withdrawing from any contact with us (or even conceivably with the cats). Furthermore, I still cannot see what we would achieve by putting more stress on the man, who clearly is not comfortable with contacts with farang "do-gooders" (even though he very obviously appreciates us bringing food and is very aware of the fact that there are now some resources to help with veterinary care and whatever else may be needed).

/ Priceless

[sylviex]

My guess is that if we start wanting to "spend more time" with him, this may just as well result in him withdrawing from any contact with us (or even conceivably with the cats). Furthermore, I still cannot see what we would achieve by putting more stress on the man, who clearly is not comfortable with contacts with farang "do-gooders"

OK. I was not aware he was so uncomfortable with the foreign "do-gooders".

Edited July 30, 2008 by sylviex

[Tywais]

I know I will come across as the bad guy here but unfortunately this topic has gone way too long in overstepping the following forum rule.

8) All advice voluntarily given by any member in any of the fora which constitute thaivisa.com is provided free of charge, and it is not permitted to either solicit for, or accept, donations, gifts etc. for providing such advice to visitors and members. Likewise, it is not permitted to either steer, or promote, or solicit people to go to locations or businesses in which it is necessary to pay for services or assistance with the exception of thaivisa.com sponsors, who may reasonably promote themselves.

As such it is necessary to close it. Other mods and admin have agreed on this decision but if you wish to contact admin for a reprieve, please feel free. Possibly you can take it to another venue other then TV.

Sorry guys.