Is the grass greener elsewhere?

[djinn]

It seems now is the moment to study alternatives for long stay in S E  asia as Thailand governement does not seem to wish to see farangs too long anymore

Perhaps a new topic allowing us to to share our experience  of important points like

- incentive programs initiated by authorities

- people attitude for foreigners (do we feel welcome)

- country stability  and type of governement

- security of people and of the goods

- cost of living

- availability  quality  and costs of medical facilities

- interesting places to stay

- availability  quality  and costs of lodging

- working regulations (hassle or not)

- insurance costs (medical,car,condo….)

- sanuk availability and cost (OK I know they are specialized forums for this point but it is a choice factor ;so I think it has to be treated)

This forum could be organised by country of destination.

Just to add my 2 cents on Cambodgia.I discussed last year with a friend  living and working in Phnom  Penh and he pointed the following points:

- attitude to foreigners: very positive for farangs.UN and various western countries have helped a lot to rebuild the country after the Red Khmer period.

- Country stability very week.Corruption a lot worse than in Thailand.A little example.If your house is burning you will have to tip the firemen BEFORE they begin to work…….

- Security: not very good

- Cost of living : same same Thailand

- Medical facilities: BAD.Phnom Penh has the “Hopital Calmette” driven by French doctors and following my friend’s words  “ specialized in medical mistakes” .

Only one other reliable very small clinic (Naga Clinic).Just to give you an idea there is no scanner in the city.You have to “rush” to Bangkok.

The city is very dusty and not to be advised to people having lung problems.

not a lot to do in the city.During the week days the city is empty at 9.30 PM

[mrvietnam2001]

Hi,

How long were you in Cambodia??

Regards

Mr Vietnam  

[Bob Chittie]

i think the problem for a lot of us is that we have made some life here. We have friends (thai and farang) and are familiar with the language and people, maybe even own a condo. Now suddenly the attitude is changing. Even if there was another similar country nearby, it would be hard for many of us to leave what we have here behind.

[mrvietnam2001]

HI Bob,

I lived in Vietnam for 22 months and then went on to Koh Samui for a total of 10 months.

I noticed that Brits put up with a LOT in Thailand. I didn't go thru that except with the locals in the development I was in. The thai government was an open door to me as an investor and I learned from being in Vnam to never ( ever) allow my assets to be out in the open there. This was a major help in me creating what I think was the first free trade agreement between an American individual and the government in Vnam. Without going into details on a forum, I can honestly say I couldn't get that much openess in the US, unless I was very rich and bought off the politicians. ( oops, did I say something aggregious?  )

The people were incredibly receptive and helpful, especially when 9/11 hit. Strangers came to my house offering everything from food, to "protection" and even the communist government who I personally saw took a lot of people off, were so helpful, that I was able to do things there with regards to openning lines of communication and dialogue that was almost surreal. ( case in point I flew the Dixie battle flag on my house during Tet, friends regularly sent me VERY Libertarian magazines and newspapers, films, etc, the kind of thing that people generally disappear over)

Perhaps it was that particular space in time. Maybe my attitude ( a British friend told me that Brits would never take the "kick the door in New York attitude I did) I don't know. I'd like to believe that my real laizzez faire attitude was so transparent, and my just wanting to be left alone as well as the fact I represent an un-touchable dollar asset ( I have employees there still) that it became as mesmerizing to them as it did for me. I'm still very much involved in day to day activities in the country and have many aquaintences and a few friends that have developed into deep enough intimacies, I would use the word "friend" in descibing them.

I didn't get the same impression from Thai's at all. Definitely not the Chinese ( I spent a lot of time in China). And friends of mine from Canada as well as Australia have told me they never got as deep into the culture as I did ( in Vnam).

Perhaps the Thai people have been exposed to a different side of western culture that they are themselves confused over. They see the money and it would almost seem they've come to think they're entitled to it. I couldn't believe the laziness I saw in Samui. Or the arrogance I saw in BKK. Maybe the current bunch in government there need to be slapped around a bit to start to realize that we foreigners really "can" and "do" represent income to the country. Maybe it would in fact helpn for foreigners to take a more "arms length" approach and maybe, just maybe if they were left to peddle their wares on the basis of mutual respect, then maybe the attitude will change.

It's like the US. People here really do think this is the only game in town. That attitude allows the government to rip people off ( in my case IF they could based on income, would steal over 50% of my earnings) and there's a lot of Americans in this boat but never took the time to get on an airplane and look at how many other places there are in the world that are beautiful, and if one keeps the money away from the government, find themselves treated like desireable assets that require certain inalienable rights. And get them or leave.

People will never do that in the US to the extent that the Brits I know have done to just wave adios. Perhaps after this current gang in government spends a few more trillion dollars that they're going to collect as you all well know in the UK, then maybe there will be a new group of expats joing the ranks worldwide.

Maybe eventually with enough chutzpah we'll all find freedom in an unfree world.

Thanks for hearing me out and regards.

Mr Vietnam  

P.S. I'm still looking for that island BTW. Think PT!

[Thetyim]

MrVietnam,

From your last post I gather you are, like me, a fan of

Dr W.G. Hill.

Are you a fan or am I perhaps talking to him now ?

[djinn]

Hi,

mrvietnam2001,just to answer to your question.

I stayed ....3 days in Cambodgia.

My 2 cents are a resume of the conversations I had with my expat friend who live there for years.

I am astonished.No real suggestion or answer to my initial quote  

Perhaps do everybody feel  so happy in Thailand they even don't wish to think to go elsewhere ???

Have a nice day

djinn

[mrvietnam2001]

Dear Mr Thetyim

I think I was the first and only rare coin dealer that scope recommended:)

Great to hear from someone who knows.

Best Regards

Mr Vietnam  

[chaladmak]

Vietnam.... hmmm...

last night in internet cafe couple of Vietnameese approached me for help with e-mail or so mething. they are trying to get away - somewhere to Slovakia ! may be because it is easier than to go to some more developed country?

but sure - grass is always greener - just look around , how many expats are here ! -

[appleman_thai]

I have been in THailand 5 years. I worked in computers as an expat under BOI visa.

After i finished my contract (my decision not to renew) I was given 7 days to get out of THailand!!! yes, thats how much they want us!

So I left and came back on a tourist visa. I have investigated all sorts of Visas to see if i can stay here without having to go to the border every month.

I have bought 2 condos here worth 12 million and i should be entitled to an investment visa but the hoops they make you jump through to get this is just a joke.

Now I am a businessman, i am educated, polite (normally), can read, write and speak Thai and they are still treating me like a second class citizen.

My brother has been visitng me here for years and is into international property development on a large scale. He wanted to invest here and my advise was NOT to. The situation in Thailand is not positive at the moment and i think it will get bad before it gets better!

So instead we are looking at Vietnam and they are opening as many doors as they possibly can. THEY keep coming back to us - they get over the red tape and just get on with it!

I think Thailand needs to wake up fast or they will be left behind in economic doldrums!

[jdinasia]

hmmm Thailand is fairly simple to live in ... have some $$. Find a Biz to invest in .. or be ovr 50 and your visa problems are solved.

Strangly Ido not feel like the situation is unstable here and yes I think the 7 day notice to exit the country upon expiry of a work-permit is a bit much. Would be better to be 30 days imho. However .. get a job offer and that will be extended etc etc

Edited July 17, 2006 by jdinasia

[GuestHouse]

This post goes back to 2003!

[alexth]

I have been in THailand 5 years. I worked in computers as an expat under BOI visa.

After i finished my contract (my decision not to renew) I was given 7 days to get out of THailand!!! yes, thats how much they want us!

So I left and came back on a tourist visa. I have investigated all sorts of Visas to see if i can stay here without having to go to the border every month.

I have bought 2 condos here worth 12 million and i should be entitled to an investment visa but the hoops they make you jump through to get this is just a joke.

Now I am a businessman, i am educated, polite (normally), can read, write and speak Thai and they are still treating me like a second class citizen.

My brother has been visitng me here for years and is into international property development on a large scale. He wanted to invest here and my advise was NOT to. The situation in Thailand is not positive at the moment and i think it will get bad before it gets better!

So instead we are looking at Vietnam and they are opening as many doors as they possibly can. THEY keep coming back to us - they get over the red tape and just get on with it!

I think Thailand needs to wake up fast or they will be left behind in economic doldrums!

Wondering if they ever will. They are just keep hanging on that stupid ideea that we are here because they have allowed us to be here and they are living under the impression that everything there is here are under their property (people, ideeas, land, businesses, development) and that they can make it on their own. I know many of the members would disagree, but I don't care, this country is very sick and it's getting sicker unless they don't wake up (and I have a feeling they won't wake up untill they'll completely fall). Just came back from Singapore...they're 1 zillion years away and they do live on this planet, I wouldn't say the same thing about thais.

[jdinasia]

This post goes back to 2003!

555

didn't notice!

People are bringing up/reviving long dead threads often there days!

[Charma]

It is very interesting to note that the same grumbles from 2003 are still much in evidence on the forum today! Would also be interesting to know how many packed up and left.

[Jockstar]

Man it must be quiet/boring for some members round here that some VERY old posts are being revived.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Jockstar

[Thaible]

Hahahaha. So many farangs talk the talk, but the complainers will never leave. Be grateful Thailand lets you stay here, as the more successful farangs are.

We know that certain unsuccessful types will always fail and always blame others no matter where they live - no need to cater to them.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Thaible

[gabe]

I have long felt that the U.S.A. government needs to have and implement stricter/tougher immigration laws for individual people and families that have no ties or legitimate business in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley all that i can do is rant and complain about this issue on internet forums because i am not a lawmaker in the U.S.A.

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants and the U.S.A. has its own culture, heritage and identity. Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.

My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

[Jockstar]

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants

Yes it is!(Unless you are a native Indian)

citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way

Are you sure about that?

My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A.

Are you still unsure about the immigrant thing?

Sorry i wouldnt usually have a go. But seriously. The Us was founded by immmigrants and so on and so on.

[alexth]

I have long felt that the U.S.A. government needs to have and implement stricter/tougher immigration laws for individual people and families that have no ties or legitimate business in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley all that i can do is rant and complain about this issue on internet forums because i am not a lawmaker in the U.S.A.

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants and the U.S.A. has its own culture, heritage and identity. Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

That sounds a little bit racist

[Charma]

My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

I suppose it must have all gone downhill from there - they will let anyone in now!

[chownah]

AS an organic gardener I can say with certainty that the grass is greener on the side where the soil has the higher nitrate concentration....but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily a good thing.

[Charma]

I have long felt that the U.S.A. government needs to have and implement stricter/tougher immigration laws for individual people and families that have no ties or legitimate business in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley all that i can do is rant and complain about this issue on internet forums because i am not a lawmaker in the U.S.A.

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants and the U.S.A. has its own culture, heritage and identity. Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

That sounds a little bit racist

A little bit racist?

[alexth]

I have long felt that the U.S.A. government needs to have and implement stricter/tougher immigration laws for individual people and families that have no ties or legitimate business in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley all that i can do is rant and complain about this issue on internet forums because i am not a lawmaker in the U.S.A.

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants and the U.S.A. has its own culture, heritage and identity. Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

That sounds a little bit racist

A little bit racist?

OK, that sounded really racist. Any invites for the KKK, Gabe?

[gabe]

I see. A person can only be a racist if they're white.

[Charma]

No, anyone can be a racist. So are you saying that you are then?

[thaiknot]

Gee,Gabe what happened to the 30 million true Americans,the Native Americans?

And don't worry your pointy little head about America's future as the Hispanic population will surpass the "white" population in a couple decades.Habla espanol usted?

Edited July 17, 2006 by thaiknot

[Chang_paarp]

Man it must be quiet/boring for some members round here that some VERY old posts are being revived.

Jock

We keep telling people to use the search facility and to look at the old threads before asking questions.

I suppose we get what we ask for.

[appleman_thai]

Sorry - i am the one to blame for resurrecting this post. BUt I did use the search and in fact the info (although old) was still relevant.

I dont want to go down the racist line cause thats not why i posted. However, I was interested to see if anyone had actually jumped ship from THailand to Vietnam and what experiences they have.

I have heard on numerous occasions that people believe THailand is easier to live in but way more difficult to do business in compared to Vietnam, Laos, etc

Mostly on the basis that they havent had any western influence here in THailand and that they really are xenophobic.

I really like living here but am finding it more and more difficult to come to terms with all the restrictions they place on me. Although I know I will always be an outsider sometimes it is just hard to take.

[Chang_paarp]

I have long felt that the U.S.A. government needs to have and implement stricter/tougher immigration laws for individual people and families that have no ties or legitimate business in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley all that i can do is rant and complain about this issue on internet forums because i am not a lawmaker in the U.S.A.

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants and the U.S.A. has its own culture, heritage and identity. Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.

My family came from europe (Scotland and Ireland) and settled in the U.S.A. before the Declaration of Independence.

I don't know if you have looked at the census figures or at the CIA World fact book;

CIA World Factbook

white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)

note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)

I would hazard a guess from personal and anacdotal experience that a good % of the "white" figure are what you would call Hispanic and the black figure might be a little low. These figures would not include the large number of illegal immigrants (4-6mil est). I wander what happened to the "Give us your poor, your homeless ....." I saw on Ellis Island.

For the folk from Latin America the grass seems to be a very bright shade of green.

Edit for clarity.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Chang_paarp

[Sing_Sling]

Gabe, Gabe, Gabe . . . what utter nonsense you write, the first biggie being:

The U.S.A. is not a nation of immigrants

Seriously mate - what in God's name made you write something so basically incorrect? Did you never learn anything at school. There's this statute in NY, right on the water, in one hand she is holding a . . . nah, you wouldn't know it.

Oh, hang on, in one of the next pearls of wisdom you mention that:

My family came from europe

So, just a bit of a sail-by (in those days), was it? Or were they IMMIGRANTS?

It does sound a bit silly, doesn't it, Gabe. Oh, I almost forgot another gem, raw as it may be, that sprung from your clearly strong wrist:

Most citizens of the U.S.A. (americans) are caucasians (white) of european descent and i would like to see it stay that way.

Umm, do you actually realise that this is a Thailand Forum and Thailand is inhabited by people with a perennial tan, not the white Caucasian oak you are hewn from?

So, I can only surmise that you are:

a) Trying to turn Thai people off coming to the USA, country of Immigrants, by showing them how red your neck is . . .

Having trouble making sense while touching those little button-thingys on your computer

c) Totally unaware that you are showing yourself to be an ignorant, uneducated racist prat.

You may choose either answer a, b or c. Of course you may also chose the 'all of the above' option.