Volunteer Opportunity

[sriracha john]

Things work out so much better for all concerned when the cart is placed AFTER the horse.

[Greenside]

The expat members of CM Friends would, however, be fully aware of the illegality of any work conducted without a work permit. I doubt any one of them lack the requisite papers, yet their website promotes volunteer work to the retirees they hope to use their (paid) services without any mention of the WP.

I think you're being a little hard on them.

Firstly, as I perceive it, the paid for packages that Retire In Chiang Mai offer are not the same as this initiative although one could be forgiven for being a bit confused as to exactly how CM Friends Group and RICM are related. No one has mentioned payment to me so far and I don't expect to have to fork out for a volunteer opportunity. That said, organising stuff like this - as anyone who has tried it will know only too well - comes at considerable expense if only as "opportunity cost" if one is running a business at the same time.

Secondly, your response gives me the impression that you imagine the Friends Group standing by rubbing their hands with glee as innocent aged farangs get lured into working illegally. I'm sure that those involved are satisfied that the undertakings from the Mayor's office are of sufficient strength to protect people kind enough to donate their time to serving the municipality in this way.

The real question is whether they are correct and in a society where it's often the norm for government departments and even individual officials to make the rules up as they go along, who can say? Even if you had a bit of paper with some kind of official stamp on it that appeared to give to permission to volunteer, why would you believe anyone else would respect it?

"Oh the old style WPW form 102b? No good now! You'll have to download a 102b from the intern........ Sorry, that's pick one up from the office in Trat....No, they've stopped issuing those because too many people wanted one. Try Ubon. By the way, that'll be 500 baht for every day you've had Cornflakes for breakfast. etc.

At the end of the day, it'll probably be down to what individual volunteers are prepared to accept as reassurance, a degree of trust all round and a certain amount of luck but if the scheme proves itself then perhaps it will pursuade the guys at the Labour department to come up with some kind of volunteer permit that is not too onerous to get, so appropriately qualified people can contribute to the community.

[sylviex]

The real question is whether they are correct and in a society where it's often the norm for government departments and even individual officials to make the rules up as they go along, who can say? Even if you had a bit of paper with some kind of official stamp on it that appeared to give to permission to volunteer, why would you believe anyone else would respect it?

Indeed.

I would not ever, in any country, wish to be in clear violation of the law.

Other posters have made the point that many "farangs" would never imagine a WP would be required for volunteer work. If it were your website targetting business with retirees, would you not wish to make it perfectly clear that you would accept no responsibilities for working here illegaly ?

Sorry, but the whole thing reeks of an attempt at cronyism, Asian-style.

And sorry, I don't think this is a sincere effort to get the local and expat communities co-operating; something I and many others would welcome.

[richard10365]

When I refer to some people in this thread being ignorant I mean people who do not know the facts and refuse to try to find them out. They then make comments about what they ASSUME to be true. Someone wanted me to point out the post I think are ignorant.

78,76,3, 7, 8, 11, 15, 18,20.....etc

I gave up looking after that.

Bottom line is if you want the facts then contact Boong for details.

Also, stop making ignorant (meaning your just guess you know what your talking about) comments.

I too feel she should defend herself against the negativity of this thread; however, she feels she does not want to waste her time with people who are so negative. Maybe she is right. The people who are willing to volunteer are keeping her busy enough.

Edited June 9, 2008 by richard10365

[sriracha john]

Fact: Working in Thailand, whether for salary or volunteering, requires a work permit.

Fact: In the absence of a work permit, a work permit exemption letter issued from the Labor Ministry is required.

In the absence of either of the above, the work described in this thread is illegal.

If the volunteers working for this organization do possess either of these, please post same in the thread and the issue will be resolved.

[ovenman]

I'd be curious to know why the preferred solution to the work permit problem for government-sponsored volunteers always seems to be to (supposedly) grant the volunteers some sort of exemption from that legal requirement. If the officials involved with these programs have so much stroke with the Labour Ministry so as to (supposedly) grant these programs some form of blanket exemption, wouldn't it be easier to operate within the established system and use that influence to issue these volunteers the actual required work permits?

Edited June 9, 2008 by ovenman

[sriracha john]

You've already shown you understand the situation elsewhere, Richard.... so you are aware of the facts.

I am a volunteer working somewhere in Thailand. I don't work with any organization. I just want to help Thai people. I dont get any money. I only work Saturday and Sunday. I help teach english to poor farm kids.

Now, the kids I teach seem like family to me. I don't like breaking the law, but not sure how to help the children.

Nobody is being intentionally "negative"... unless not wishing to be illegal is considered being "negative"

[PeaceBlondie]

Two hours of work per week, volunteering? That is work, but not enough, in practice, to bother with official labour ministry paperwork. Part time paid workers, such as English teachers at a dozen language centers in the Chiang Mai province, cannot get WP's partly because it is not worth the trouble. I am ignorant, but I heard that you have to work ten hours per week or per month to even get a WP. Of course, that would not apply to Labour Ministry waivers, I suppose.

I do not wish to bother Khun Boong, especially with hypothetical, "what if?" questions. I suppose that she cannot guarantee over her own witnessed signature that the mayor or any ministerial office will do anything. If she has been sponsoring volunteer programs for a while now (as she told me, personally), does Khun Boong have copies of the waivers or WP's she secured for those volunteers?

It is not the fault of Khun Boong, the mayor, the volunteers, the schools, etc. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings.

[sylviex]

Two hours of work per week, volunteering? That is work, but not enough, in practice, to bother with official labour ministry paperwork. Part time paid workers, such as English teachers at a dozen language centers in the Chiang Mai province, cannot get WP's partly because it is not worth the trouble. I am ignorant, but I heard that you have to work ten hours per week or per month to even get a WP. Of course, that would not apply to Labour Ministry waivers, I suppose.

I do not wish to bother Khun Boong, especially with hypothetical, "what if?" questions. I suppose that she cannot guarantee over her own witnessed signature that the mayor or any ministerial office will do anything. If she has been sponsoring volunteer programs for a while now (as she told me, personally), does Khun Boong have copies of the waivers or WP's she secured for those volunteers?

It is not the fault of Khun Boong, the mayor, the volunteers, the schools, etc. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings.

Well said yet again, PeaceBlondie.

Edited June 9, 2008 by sylviex

[sriracha john]

Two hours of work per week, volunteering? That is work, but not enough, in practice, to bother with official labour ministry paperwork. Part time paid workers, such as English teachers at a dozen language centers in the Chiang Mai province, cannot get WP's partly because it is not worth the trouble. I am ignorant, but I heard that you have to work ten hours per week or per month to even get a WP. Of course, that would not apply to Labour Ministry waivers, I suppose.

I do not wish to bother Khun Boong, especially with hypothetical, "what if?" questions. I suppose that she cannot guarantee over her own witnessed signature that the mayor or any ministerial office will do anything. If she has been sponsoring volunteer programs for a while now (as she told me, personally), does Khun Boong have copies of the waivers or WP's she secured for those volunteers?

It is not the fault of Khun Boong, the mayor, the volunteers, the schools, etc. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our not changing archaic laws ourselves, that we are underlings.

Ditto. Well said again, PB.

Edited June 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[richard10365]

I can see why Boong refuses to bother with this thread.

John, I am quite aware of the facts. There is nothing wrong with the facts you posted. You do need a work permit to do any work in Thailand. Also, without that, you do need the exemption letter from the Labor Ministry. Since the mayor is taking care of the required paperwork required by the Labor Ministry then the work described in this thread is legal.

Peace Blondie, she says she would appreciate it if you asked her directly. I'm not sure why the people posting such negative responses are afraid to take the time to email her your concerns. It seems you have plenty of time to post your assumptions here. Why not take the time to ask her directly instead of telling everyone they are breaking the law if they participate in this program. If you don't know the facts of what the mayor has done for this program then you are just assuming.

[KevinHunt]

Edited June 9, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[sriracha john]

I can see why Boong refuses to bother with this thread.

John, I am quite aware of the facts. There is nothing wrong with the facts you posted. You do need a work permit to do any work in Thailand. Also, without that, you do need the exemption letter from the Labor Ministry. Since the mayor is taking care of the required paperwork required by the Labor Ministry then the work described in this thread is legal.

We're back to the cart and horse scenario.

If the processing of the legally-required paperwork has been completed, evidence of such should have been incorporated into the OP of this thread as supposedly it was significant enough to apparently laud it in the OP.

If the process is present tense "the mayor is taking care of," then the work is illegal until such time as it has been finished. As the program is launching this week... we have the horse pushing the cart instead of pulling it.

It's an either/or situation..... Either they have work permits/work permit exemption letters or they don't. Until such proof is furnished, it remains to be considered illegal work.

Why it's necessary to continually dance around this issue for years throughout this and multiple other related threads is amazing. It all lends small credence to the credibility of the participants.

As the saying goes.... "seeing is believing"....

Is the small request to simply submit proof of legality that stupefying???

Edited June 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[Nienke]

As the saying goes.... "seeing is believing"....

Your concerns and what you all say about the WP or WPEL are all legitimate. But, if you want 'proof' or any other details, contact Khun Boong or the Lady Mayor directly.

Not everybody feels the need to communicate on a public forum, let alone that for contracts or WPEL's for that matter one usually contacts the people/authorities concerned directly.

If you don't wish to make direct contact or know more about this project that's perfectly fine, but then stop biggering about it. IMHO, this project and the Chiang Mai Friends Group is a great initiative and I'm glad I can be a part of them.

My last few setangs on this subject,

Nienke

[Loaded]

There's a very easy long-term legal solution to this: the CM friends establish a foundation and through the foundation work permits are obtained. It's what any other volunteer group is required to do.

Anyway, does a 'mayor' or K. Boong have the executive authority to issue wp exemptions?

Edited June 10, 2008 by Loaded

[sriracha john]

this project and the Chiang Mai Friends Group is a great initiative and I'm glad I can be a part of them.

Is there not a single member of this Chiang Mai Friends Group that is participating in the project and is also a member of Thaivisa?

If so, please provide the forum the necessary WP/WPEL so as to provide legitimacy for others that are contemplating joining the project.

If not, then I have been mistaken as I presumed that some of the posters on this thread met the above criteria due to their promoting both the Group and the project as well as several references that quite a few Group members are also TV members.

If there is not a single person willing to stand up and be pro-active for the Group and the project and take the initiative on this very simple request, then I'll contact Khun Boong personally.

Edited June 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[Priceless]

this project and the Chiang Mai Friends Group is a great initiative and I'm glad I can be a part of them.

Is there not a single member of this Chiang Mai Friends Group that is participating in the project and is also a member of Thaivisa?

If so, please provide the forum the necessary WP/WPEL so as to provide legitimacy for others that are contemplating joining the project.

If not, then I have been mistaken as I presumed that some of the posters on this thread met the above criteria due to their promoting both the Group and the project as well as several references that quite a few Group members are also TV members.

If there is not a single person willing to stand up and be pro-active for the Group and the project and take the initiative on this very simple request, then I'll contact Khun Boong personally.

As I understand it, this is exactly what the group has been asking you (and all others interested in volunteering) to do from the very beginning.

/ Priceless

[sriracha john]

this project and the Chiang Mai Friends Group is a great initiative and I'm glad I can be a part of them.

Is there not a single member of this Chiang Mai Friends Group that is participating in the project and is also a member of Thaivisa?

If so, please provide the forum the necessary WP/WPEL so as to provide legitimacy for others that are contemplating joining the project.

If not, then I have been mistaken as I presumed that some of the posters on this thread met the above criteria due to their promoting both the Group and the project as well as several references that quite a few Group members are also TV members.

If there is not a single person willing to stand up and be pro-active for the Group and the project and take the initiative on this very simple request, then I'll contact Khun Boong personally.

As I understand it, this is exactly what the group has been asking you (and all others interested in volunteering) to do from the very beginning.

/ Priceless

And why it seemed so unnecessary to do so given that there are members of TV who are also associated with the Group....

But ok, that was a mistaken belief of mine that someone within the Group would be enthusiastic enough about the project to provide it for the entire board to view rather than necessitate the need for a dozen different individual emails....

If the Group members don't want to take it on to promote their very own project, I will do it for them.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, richard10365, for letting me know that Khun Boong would not mind me sending her an email about a hypothetical "what if?" question, which many folks here in Thailand generally do not want to answer. I had to wade through the first 66 posts here just to find the URL'S to the Retire in Chiang Mai and the Friends Group, and I will write Khun Boong now. Since forum rules required the email address to be deleted, I will guess the email address.

I did not intend to be take sides in this very worthwhile civic volunteer endeavor. Even the road to He11 is paved with good intentions.

[Priceless]

Thanks, richard10365, for letting me know that Khun Boong would not mind me sending her an email about a hypothetical "what if?" question, which many folks here in Thailand generally do not want to answer. I had to wade through the first 66 posts here just to find the URL'S to the Retire in Chiang Mai and the Friends Group, and I will write Khun Boong now. Since forum rules required the email address to be deleted, I will guess the email address.

I did not intend to be take sides in this very worthwhile civic volunteer endeavor. Even the road to He11 is paved with good intentions.

PB, I don't think you have to guess the e-mail address. It took me all of 15 seconds to find it, using a wonderful new invention called 'Google'

/ Priceless

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, richard10365, for letting me know that Khun Boong would not mind me sending her an email about a hypothetical "what if?" question, which many folks here in Thailand generally do not want to answer. I had to wade through the first 66 posts here just to find the URL'S to the Retire in Chiang Mai and the Friends Group, and I will write Khun Boong now. Since forum rules required the email address to be deleted, I will guess the email address.

I did not intend to be take sides in this very worthwhile civic volunteer endeavor. Even the road to He11 is paved with good intentions.

PB, I don't think you have to guess the e-mail address. It took me all of 15 seconds to find it, using a wonderful new invention called 'Google'

/ Priceless

Priceless, maybe you have one of those miraculous ADSL connections at 9 billion tetrabytes per nanosecond. I have sent my letter to info (at) retireinchiangmai.com but it took my incredibly snail's-paced dialup several minutes to find the URL, etc. Let me see - oh shit, it came back undeliverable! Their inbox is full! Priceless, or richard10365, or Nienke (who is a Friend of all), would you please give this question to Khun Boong, since I tried and failed?

Does the Mayor already have in hand now, documentation from the Ministry of Labour, that her project is waived of the normal law requiring aliens to work in Thailand without proper work permits, and would somebody please publish such documentation on ThaiVisa?

Thank you, Khun Boong.

[Priceless]

Thanks, richard10365, for letting me know that Khun Boong would not mind me sending her an email about a hypothetical "what if?" question, which many folks here in Thailand generally do not want to answer. I had to wade through the first 66 posts here just to find the URL'S to the Retire in Chiang Mai and the Friends Group, and I will write Khun Boong now. Since forum rules required the email address to be deleted, I will guess the email address.

I did not intend to be take sides in this very worthwhile civic volunteer endeavor. Even the road to He11 is paved with good intentions.

PB, I don't think you have to guess the e-mail address. It took me all of 15 seconds to find it, using a wonderful new invention called 'Google'

/ Priceless

Priceless, maybe you have one of those miraculous ADSL connections at 9 billion tetrabytes per nanosecond. I have sent my letter to info (at) retireinchiangmai.com but it took my incredibly snail's-paced dialup several minutes to find the URL, etc. Let me see - oh shit, it came back undeliverable! Their inbox is full! Priceless, or richard10365, or Nienke (who is a Friend of all), would you please give this question to Khun Boong, since I tried and failed?

Does the Mayor already have in hand now, documentation from the Ministry of Labour, that her project is waived of the normal law requiring aliens to work in Thailand without proper work permits, and would somebody please publish such documentation on ThaiVisa?

Thank you, Khun Boong.

I'm sorry, but I am in no way connected with the Chiang Mai Friends group, so I'd rather not get involved. I will however PM Khun Boong's e-mail address to you in a minute or so.

/ Priceless

[higgy88]

On the subject of old archaic laws in Thailand.

Dumb Laws in Thailand

It is illegal to leave your house if you are not wearing underwear.

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/international/thailand

[PeaceBlondie]

I am in touch with Khun Boong, who prefers to meet personally. I will try to meet her at her office soon.

[sylviex]

Nienke wrote :

Professor Paws - Humane education: Living Safely with Dogs - is part of the English teaching program at the schools. Soraya (Care for Dogs) and I (LuckyDogs) will start next Friday at one of these schools.

We need, however, more volunteers. If you are interested, please pm me or contact Soraya through Care for Dogs.

Can I ask Nienke if this English program is one of the CM friends/retireinchiangmai programs ?

Loaded wrote :

There's a very easy long-term legal solution to this: the CM friends establish a foundation and through the foundation work permits are obtained. It's what any other volunteer group is required to do.

Right .

Has anyone been able to establish whether the CM friends/retireinchiangmai are a business or a foundation or some other entity ?

Look forward to PeaceBlondie's report later.

[sriracha john]

I am in touch with Khun Boong, who prefers to meet personally.

*sigh* I got the same response.

My written request had seemed such a straight-forward and simple one..... oh well.

Edited June 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

Last Thursday, June 5, Duenpen Chaladlam from the Chiang Mai Friends Group invited local foreign residents to an Orientation Day for volunteers interested in the teaching of English to the municipality and in 11 municipal schools.

Fifteen volunteers attended the briefing, joining a further seven who had previously registered but unfortunately were not able to attend. The prospective teachers included ex-professors and lecturers, ordinary teachers with TEFL qualifications, housewives, and even house husbands! Along with the eleven schools, 95 Municipal employees from all levels have expressed an interest in learning to communicate more efficiently in English. The school students being taught will be aged between 11 - 12 years old.

The Mayor of Chiang Mai, Dr Duentemduang na Chiengmai, officially welcomed the group, and fully endorses the efforts of the Cross-Culture Education Project, hoping it will bring about a better understanding between all citizens and residents of Chiang Mai. She also hopes this will lead to better communication between municipal officials and foreign residents.

For those who had concerns about their visa status, it was explained that all volunteers would have special permission to teach at the Municipality and the schools, and that this would be endorsed by the Immigration Office of Chiang Mai.

Volunteers would be expected to teach for 2 hours per day, 1 day per week.

To those without experience of teaching in Thailand, Hugh Leong gave an interesting insight into the necessary skills, and emphasised that conversation skills, including pronunciation and the rhythm and emphasis of the English language, as well as its culture-related aspects, should be paramount.

Anyone wishing to volunteer with the group should contact Chiang Mai Friends Group at retireinchiangmai AT gmail.com .

chiangmai-mail.com/current/community.shtml

None the wiser from this .

Can others wishing to do volunteer work apply to CM Immigration Office for the "special permission" ?

[Rasseru]

For what it is worth, I was initially interested in the idea of getting involved in the volunteer work that is the subject of this thread, but I am not any more.

[Greenside]

Can others wishing to do volunteer work apply to CM Immigration Office for the "special permission" ?

Why would you think that? It appears as if you need some kind of organised group with the endorsement of the Mayor and co-operation from someone in CM Immigration. Maybe if you put something together that qualified then the same deal would be available (not withstanding the question mark that still hangs over the ultimate validity of their waiver arrangement, of course).

[sylviex]

Maybe if you put something together that qualified then the same deal would be available (not withstanding the question mark that still hangs over the ultimate validity of their waiver arrangement, of course).

Yes, that's what I mean.

If that is indeed possible, and we ever manage to resolve the questions about the legality of the "arrangement", many groups would undoubtedly be interested.

I wonder if it would be appropriate to move this tread to the Visa subforum, now. It would be interesting to hear what the visa/WP experts (Sunbelt and others) might have to say.

I expect most of the people who read the CM subforum have already absorbed the information in the OP.