Color Discrimination In Relationship

[NotNew2You]

When staff at a restaurant thought my dark-skinned man was from Oman we got great treatment. The moment they had him pinned as a lower-class Thai (Isaan) the service dropped dramatically. The colour of his skin didn't change but their categorization of him did and their behavior changed accordingly.

Very well stated and illustrated with a concrete example.

However, in addition, when wealthier /lighter-skinned Thais find out someone is from Issan and change their behavior towards them, there may also be a tinge of nationalism at work, because this area of the country is populated mainly by migrants/settlers from Laos (upper-Issan) and Khmers [Cambodians] lower-Issan. The same would hold for darker southern Thais, as they are ethnically and culturally Malay. However, all these people are "Asian" races so sorta hard to be "racist" against your own race. Discrimination by socio-economic status is certainly in the cards, however.

[shikonjewel]

During my short few weeks in Thailand, I never experienced anything remotly like this form of classism what you've all said here. Although eyes would generally creep towards my bf and I, I never assumed any of them to be hateful ones. Though I did see some of this form of classism displayed from others, which did throw me for a loop.

I'm more interested to know now if anyone has experienced any of this in their western societies. I've only experienced racism towards our relationship once in our entire 5 years of knowing each other. We were walking into a restaurant when a very drunk older man looked at me and then my bf and said to him (while trying to immitate some form of an asian accent) "Not bad, not bad! How much, how much?"

I had never seen my bf so livid.

[bina]

well shikon, here in the cozy middle east, we are ethnocentric, xenophobic and religiuos fanantics so i get looks and questions along the lines of 'what, no jewish men available?" ; i was once asked if i serviced all the guys in the caravan (on moshav where thai workers worked in a greenhouse, i went to visit with anon)..; 'bring your worker to take the packages' (an israeli assumption that if he is thai and with me, then i am the boss and he is my worker(labourer actually, a lower life form even then just 'worker')...coulour has nothing to do with it.

thats in jerusalem and surroundings. in tel aviv, no one really looks twice, or they think its 'cool' (depending on age group and socioeconomic background )

. here, the better educated and/or wealthier, the less outwardly racist the poeple are. the lower socio economic or more religious or from ethnic backgrounds like yemen or morroco, the response is more racist, outwardly (dont u worry about your dog, he might eat it?... etc) btu then again, people are racist here aganst anyone who isnt jewish, or jewish religous, and yes, the ethiopians which no one really likes (primitive, etc etc),

skin colour also here causes racist (subtle but existing) comments or actions or assumptions because if dark skinned than must be from north africa (morroco yemen etc) and therefore more like the arabs and primitive...

education doesnt or didnt until recently play a role. russion immigrants here are super educated but israeis dislike them. my ex, a kibbutznik, never finished high school like most guys his age, but he, until he met his present partner, (traditional religious yemenite background moshav woman) was super prejudiced towards dark skinned north african moshav i.e. back county lacking culture -types.... and he and his peers considered themselves the 'blue bloods' of israel...

most thai here are also higher on the 'cool' scale then ethiopians even if they are workers, BECAUSE THEY ARE TEMPORARY (and have a good name as good strong steady workers, soft spoken and not arguementative) and will not be staying here to 'mix and thin the pure blood'... ethiopians are maybe or maybe not jewish but they are a threat cause they are here to stay. their dark colour just makes them more noticeable.

dont always read american or british style racist styles in to other counties and their racist problems... people from the 'outside' dont often catch the subtle differences or how different groups perceive themselves or each other...

bina

Edited July 25, 2008 by bina

[Goinghomesoon]

Ha the nationalism thing is so true. When I first started dated my hubby-to-be he was clattering around with some pots and pans in the kitchen. In passing I said "gosh you are very loud". He stopped and stared at me, puzzled "Why you think I Lao? I not Lao, I THAI. Jing-jing I THAI not Lao!" Too funny

[bina]

too funny.......)))

bina

[Amyji]

bina, your perspective about racism in Israel is very enlightening. I'm living in an isolated bubble of the world known as the San Francisco Bay Area where any reference to racism is absolutely shocking. Thank you for showing me a piece of what the real world is, even if it isn't pretty.

[LaReina]

Teej: I loved your (essay) response. How come you can not accept pm's?

Sad but true, all races at some time or the other looked down on members of their group that were darker in colour. Only thing is Caucasians in general seem to have gotten over it, while every other groups (from Indian, to Blacks to Latinos to Asians) still hold that superiority chip on their shoulder.

At the end of the day it boils down to a group of ignorant people needing an ego boost to feel good about themselves. People who are confident in who they are, where they have come from and where they are going, never feel the need to look down on others. No matter what (natural or un-natural) shade they are.

[mssabai]

Teej: I loved your (essay) response. How come you can not accept pm's?

Sad but true, all races at some time or the other looked down on members of their group that were darker in colour. Only thing is Caucasians in general seem to have gotten over it, while every other groups (from Indian, to Blacks to Latinos to Asians) still hold that superiority chip on their shoulder.

At the end of the day it boils down to a group of ignorant people needing an ego boost to feel good about themselves. People who are confident in who they are, where they have come from and where they are going, never feel the need to look down on others. No matter what (natural or un-natural) shade they are.

Have we really got over it? Or is it that in the west we have such culturally mixed societies, that instead of having colour discrimination within our own race, we can just discriminate against other races within our culture...

Compared to Africans here, dark Thais are heads above....

[sylviex]

I am wondering if it is true that all "races" have discriminated against darker folk ? I seem to recall a Chinese fable about the white babies being rejected because they were not cooked long enough and the black for being cooked too long. The golden ones, who had been cooked for just the right length of time, were Chinese.

Also, if an African is accorded lower status than a dark Thai, does that mean it's about nationality rather than colour ?

I think colour may be just part of a package of "undesirable" traits (dirty, smelly, poor, uneducated, ugly, uncivilised ... ) that one group will attribute to another.

[LaReina]

Teej: I loved your (essay) response. How come you can not accept pm's?

Sad but true, all races at some time or the other looked down on members of their group that were darker in colour. Only thing is Caucasians in general seem to have gotten over it, while every other groups (from Indian, to Blacks to Latinos to Asians) still hold that superiority chip on their shoulder.

At the end of the day it boils down to a group of ignorant people needing an ego boost to feel good about themselves. People who are confident in who they are, where they have come from and where they are going, never feel the need to look down on others. No matter what (natural or un-natural) shade they are.

Have we really got over it? Or is it that in the west we have such culturally mixed societies, that instead of having colour discrimination within our own race, we can just discriminate against other races within our culture...

Compared to Africans here, dark Thais are heads above....

Okay.. let me back up a bit, as I can not speak for the masses, but coming from the US, a white american who can not hold a tan will never look down on another american who tans. Besides (at least amongst my generation) being able to say.. "I'm dark because I have Italian, or Greek or Spanish" in my ancestry is quite the fad. Of course any mention of African blood is left out.

Then if you are light skinned hispanic.. any African blood is left out.

So I think Caucasians as a whole have gotten over it. Bronzers are in.

But when you look at other races.. you have hispanics categorizing skin colour.. and giving rankings..

Morena, Trigena, Negra, Negrita.. Trigenita... color cafe..

African Americans give rankings according to hair texture.. Nice hair, bad hair.. all the while with an internal discrimination of skin colour. Suppossedly a fall back from Salvery (whatever! Talk about looking for an excuse)

Then in Africa you have the same thing again.. the Colonial Masters.. who preferred the lighter skined people to work in the houses (okay so I got that from Hotel Rwanda).

And as you go through the races you see the same thing. Discriminating against others is one thing (ignorance and fear of the unknown), but then against your own, is just mind boggling.

[LaReina]

Also, if an African is accorded lower status than a dark Thai, does that mean it's about nationality rather than colour ?

I think colour may be just part of a package of "undesirable" traits (dirty, smelly, poor, uneducated, ugly, uncivilised ... ) that one group will attribute to another.

Sylviex,

I actually think that there is a different kind of discrimination here in Thailand (when it comes to races). I think Thais deep down discriminate against everyone.. white, black, brown, purple you name it.. but as a form of pride in being a Thai person. In my opinion, it is not the same as what is propagated in the west. But then again, I may be dead wrong.

[sylviex]

So, nationalism & ethnocentricism are important factors, too. Alive and well in many places.

Where you fit into the hierarchy is a product of many factors.

[HYENA]

The racism in Thailand is disgusting. The good part is if anyone mistreats my wife. they get NO TIP. If someone asks too many questions or cops an attitude, I defend her. People who claim they're 100% Thai have no clue it's all Chinese ancestry feeding this self feeding "I'm higher than you" attitude. I adopt the western standard that you are respected if you act respectful.

When my wife worries about the sun making her too dark; I tell her it's sexy jingjing! I tell her you sexy not sexy is "up to me" stop worrying what others think...what others think has nothing to do with you; it's THEIR baggage not yours-they aren't your husband!

So far, two major business deals were blown because I had my wife contact the company (She's Isaan). I made sure the company's owners knew this racism/skin color crap is costing them money and if they'd like to act reasonable and think about money (not the messenger) then maybe we have a deal.

One lady in the sky train saw my wife with me and told my wife to get up, as only the seats were for children. Had I understood, I would have smiled and said in a kind manner to see if she could insert her head into her rear end, then she could see more clearly. My wife, used to feeling lower immediately stood out of the seat. I told her not to succumb to doing this and that only because someone "thinks" they're higher than you (no children were around to sit and there were no signs) but my wife didn't want to be disrespectful since the hag was older.

In my view, old or young, you have to earn respect. What the lady did was a controlling racial act and I'd have no issue telling her "highness" was merely floating higher in the sespool of her mind.

I prefer Isaan dark skinned women mainly because they don't get the respect. 7 months and she'll come to America and be an equal. Where I live, people don't pull that crap at all. Opinions are like *SSholes; everyone has one.

The thought someone is high or low based on skin only proves ignorance and lack of education. Point the finger and you've got 3 pointing back at yourself.

One company was very upset but I told them NO DEAL until I receive a formal apology from the receptionist to my wife. Lose face or no business...no one speaks to my wife like that. If I see racism, I point out their ignorance and faults quickly adding that they need more education. The lighter skin the Thai the less I like because of this. I only do business with darkies ) (I'm a white American).

Thailand only changed their name (Siam) to ensure the minority (Thais) are seen as the ruling class when the ethic groups of Siam are the majority. This gave the Thais an excuse to look down on the ethnic culture...but if you look at statistics, most farangs prefer ethnic Siam women/men because they seem to have better hearts and are less self serving.

Someone goes out of their way to say "I'm 100% Thai" (implying their higher than others) and business is finished, no tip and I leave. I enjoy letting them know their subtle racism or feelings of superiority bring them no more baht from me. Treat me like a human speaking to a human and all goes smoothly. I'm not proud to be an American; I'm proud to be kind to others and earn respect, defending those who are discriminated against. While looking for a fiancee for my friend (while searching for candidates) if I hear this "I'm high" attitude, I tell him they'll be trouble for sure. I advise him to marry someone whose intelligent and thinks their "low" (they're far more deserving and will be more appreciating of the gift of true love, marriage and a new life in America).

Edited August 27, 2008 by HYENA

[eek]

Im sorry that your wife has had these experiences HYENA. Hoping to not sound disrespectful in any way when i say this, but garnered from what i have read over time, it would seem quite a lot of Isaan Ladies are tarred with some assumptions about their profession when with a Western Man, just because of where they are from and the colour of their skin. I think it must be a hard one to stomach for gf's and wives, and admire their strength. Would not be something i would like to experience myself. I wish her all the best when she goes to the US with you, but hope attitudes and presumptions change over time for all (male and female) darker skinned Thai. This thread has been an eye-opener.

My bf is Thai, but I havent seen anything of negative comments with regards to skin colour, at least not that i noticed. Hes not pale, but not very dark either, so i dont know how other Thai view him (or particularly care. Although I would of course find it distressing if i knew he was being discriminated against..in any way). He is however, very assertive & tall (especially by Thai standards), friendly and relaxed, but certainly doesnt take any nonsense from people, so i suspect it wouldnt be easy for another person to make him feel inferior.

Oh well, no idea what to say really, its just very sad. Hopefully attitudes will change over time.