Road Rage In Thailand...

[kat]

About two days there was an accident on Sukumvit Road at the Theprasit Intersection in Jomtien involving 3 schoolboys who where hit by a pickup while riding their motorbike to school. The bike got creamed and the kids (young teenagers) were all sprawled along the highway. What really spoke volumes about the society here is two of the kids got up and moved to the side of the road but the worst of the 3 was laying in road because his leg was split in half. The traffic behind the accident could not even foking wait for the injured boy to be moved or for an ambulance to come and assist him as they were all just driving around him as he laid in the middle of the highway.

When you look beneath the surface here, under layer is really feudal and ugly and I am strongly considering to just go back home where at least we have laws and people on the most part tend to be decent to each other or should I just let my kids grow up around 3rd Worlders like this?

Why do you think the traffic shoudl wait, does he rest more easily knowing he is holding up traffic?

The person who was basically a kid had idiots driving within inches of him as he was laying there with a leg snapped in two.

All within the time of the red light that he ran changed.

I know they drive like shit here but seeing something like this made me feel sick at how selfish and stupid most Thai people are.

you mean it made you feel superior

I left LOS primarily because of how unsafe I felt on the streets. Out of all the reasons to leave, the fact is whether you are a car or motor bike driver, a taxi rider or bus passenger, a pedestrian, or ambulance driver, you are subordinate to the bigger or more privileged car, or the person who is faster or more careless than you. For the most part, many police officers are out to enforce their own right to extort money from you, rather than enforce any semblance of traffic regulations, because there aren't any that make sense. People don't even stop or move out of the way for ambulances, and heaven help you in the high probability that you will need one someday.

And no, I don't feel superior, just luckier, because I can leave that mess.

About two days there was an accident on Sukumvit Road at the Theprasit Intersection in Jomtien involving 3 schoolboys who where hit by a pickup while riding their motorbike to school. The bike got creamed and the kids (young teenagers) were all sprawled along the highway. What really spoke volumes about the society here is two of the kids got up and moved to the side of the road but the worst of the 3 was laying in road because his leg was split in half. The traffic behind the accident could not even foking wait for the injured boy to be moved or for an ambulance to come and assist him as they were all just driving around him as he laid in the middle of the highway.

When you look beneath the surface here, under layer is really feudal and ugly and I am strongly considering to just go back home where at least we have laws and people on the most part tend to be decent to each other or should I just let my kids grow up around 3rd Worlders like this?

Maybe you should have a look at this....

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/05/ignored.hitrun.ap/

I hope 'back home' is not Hartford, Connecticut.

Sh*t behaviour occurs all over the world, not just Thailand.

You can find similarities to almost anything all over the world, but the information is in how it differs.

In August of 2000, my 20-year-old niece was mercilessly run over by a hit-and-run driver in the Bronx, New York. She was crossing a neighborhood intersection of the Cross Bronx Expressway, and the green van ploughed right through her at high speed and never stopped. According to witnesses at the scene, and the evidence of her brain injury, she flew high up in the air and came crashing down on her skull. She was laid out in the middle of an expressway intersection, at night, in a pool of her own blood. The witnesses at the scene immediately ran over and surrounded her in the middle of the street. They called emergency services and deflected traffic from running over her again. They were sobbing at the scene, because she was such a young girl and looked so bad. They saved her life - strangers all of them. Eight years later, my niece is still struggling to walk, but she is a trooper and has a great physical therapist right now. The cops never found the culprit.

Here's the thing: did my niece cross against the light in the dark, did she see a dark-green, fast moving vehicle with her poor eyesight, did she just smoke a splif after her shift as she was known to do back then? I don't know, but it doesn't matter because the driver is a savage for not stopping, but then maybe that is my bias.

Here's another thing: my family are all immigrants, and I spend my life defending their rights, but we need to always evaluate public policy with a clear eye. There has been a move and debate in the United States to give illegal immigrants driving licenses, because the spike in hit-and-run drivers has been correlated with illegal immigrants, including the case you cite above, and others. In the case of my niece? - we don't know, because there are also a large proportion of hit-and-run drivers that are never found, and there are savage people amongst all nationalities and races. Many are also unlicensed or revoked licensed drivers, with nothing to lose. However, public policy and rules and regulations or the lack thereof has a way of turning more normal, every day people into savages.

I am for the issuing of driving licenses to illegal immigrants because it just makes good, pragmatic public policy, and more enforcements for unlicensed drivers, but the case for LOS is much more entrenched because we are dealing with culture, not policies. I personally still feel safer as a pedestrian and passenger in the States, because problems are recognized as problems by the authorities, and that is the first step in addressing it. Buses come to a full stop, people stop at traffic lights, it is illegal to block the way of emergency services, and I don't have to worry about getting run over on a sidewalk. We all have problems, but it's the basic stuff that tells a story.

Go ahead and flame away.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75BC0A9629C8B63

Immigrants Face Loss of Licenses in ID Crackdown

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...401/ai_n9407316

Federal data highlight state hit-and-run trend

http://www.deadlyroads.com/whydriversrun.shtml

Why Drivers Hit and Run?

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

The hit-kill-and-run state: Arizona nears grim title

Studies suggest high rate has link to illegal migrants

Edited June 10, 2008 by kat

[Spee]

I've always believed wars are better left unfought.

Or as Sun Tzu intimated in his writings, the smart leader knows the outcome of the battle before it takes place, which of course can be taken in a couple of ways. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Or before going to a gunfight, make absolutely sure you have the biggest gun and are the best shot.

Getting back to the OP's story, I would prefer to use a poker analogy. One of the cardinal rules of poker is, if you are intending to bet, make sure you know what you intend to do if raised by another player who is yet to act. In other words, think the hand through before it is played out.

The OP made a bet in the everyday game of driver on driver "eff-you." He flipped the guy off. But he did so without first thinking what he would do if the other guy raised the stakes, namely taking offense to getting the bird and taking it to the next level (raising the original bet). The OP was obviously not prepared for the escalation and ended up taking a beating. Frankly, the OP is lucky that it was only a beating. He could have gotten run over, or pushed into a ditch at speed, or worse. This is not to condone the escalation, but rather to look at things objectively.

In hindsight, the obvious choice was to never have made a bet (get out of the way and keep one's finger to one's self). You can say what you want about Thailand being lawless and third world and the cops don't care, but the fact is that people get in trouble for mouthing off and flipping people off all the time, all over the world. Oh, and by the way, it most other places in the world, the cops don't care either. It's not their job to care about anything until after it happens.

Personally, I've driven all over the central provinces and never had an issue. There are rude drivers and dangerous circumstances all the time to be sure. It goes with the territory. But the bottom line is I'm a guest in this country and to remain a guest, I first have to be tolerant and polite, even if that means being subjected to the occasional rude or obnoxious or unsafe driver.

I've also ridden motorcycles for tens of thousands of miles, although admittedly never in Thailand. I've also had quite a bit of beginner and advanced motorcycle rider training. One of the first discussion topics in motorcycle rider training is "risk awareness and risk acceptance." To me, the same thing is true of driving cars in general, and especially so in Thailand.

Risk awareness - I am aware that crazy drivers are the norm and anything could happen at any time.

Risk acceptance - If I get behind the wheel, I accept the risks of which I am aware.

Of course the next step after that is preparation, or how do I behave and operate my vehicle so as to minimize those risks?

Oh ... and by the way .... giving the finger to another driver isn't in the list of risk mitigation options.

[duchovny]

Reading this reminds me of what a terrible place Thailand has become and why I'm very glad I no longer live there.

I'm sure the attack of the OP was also racially motivated.

[Desertexile]

Thai driver's red mist is very thick.

The best way to win is not to play.

<deleted> me, David Carradine is a TV poster too!

Made me say laugh with that one!

[Heng]

I rarely carry, but I am considering it as road rage incidents -not with myself being the originator of any of that rage of course- will no doubt increase as the financial situation for a good number of folks worsens. For unarmed folks who find themselves in an impromptu gunfight: remember that your car or truck is a fast, heavy, and powerful weapon in itself. Hint: make sure they are not already standing next to your car pointing their gun at you at point blank range first.

not when you are stuck in traffic, your <deleted>-k-d if a guy pulls a gun while on a moped. you rarely carry? who are you???

ive thought of having a gun in the house but i would never go for a drive with it.

Obviously if I just bumped a moped or any other kind of vehicle, I'm going to be on the lookout for some kind of reaction. I only carry (and yes, legally: the only thing they needed to see was our pawn shop license and it was a 15 day upgrade from the standard p.4) on "share" or any other day where there are significant cash transactions that need to be made.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Heng

[Spee]

Go ahead and flame away.

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

The hit-kill-and-run state: Arizona nears grim title

Studies suggest high rate has link to illegal migrants

Not gonna flame away. Sorry to hear about your niece and hope she continues to progress in her recovery.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, though. You indicate that you think illegal immigrants should be entitled to a drivers license but then give all kinds of evidence of poor driving by illegal immigrants leading to preventable injury and death. I don't think illegal immigrants should have licenses. It just legitimizes their illegal immigration and poor driving habits. It's just wrong.

Back to the OP, I suspect the bad driving situation in LoS has always been this way, or at least for the last 20-30 years of growing private and public transportation. I've driven in a lot of different areas of the world, and would not consider what I've seen and read about in LoS to be that different from other parts of the world.

By comparison, major US expressways in and around Boston, New York, Washington, DC, Chicago, LA, Las Vegas, etc., are complete zoos. A large portion of the drivers are likely to be unlicensed and uninsured, and people will be driving all speeds in all lanes. Local speed limits and redlights are ignored. Amber lights used to mean slow down because the red is coming, but now they mean the opposite.

To me, the driving in Thailand is very similar to what I saw and experienced in Romania when I worked there. Stop lights only mean something if the cops are there to extort money from people they flag down. Any road at any time could have a mix of slow and fast cars, big and small trucks, mopeds and motorcycles, and horse drawn wagons. Out in the rural areas, the lines on the road are merely a formality. A dual lane road can easily become 4 or more lanes. Passing cars will often "play chicken" because they "know" the other cars will likely move over.

I just think the road situation in LoS is what it is and we as guests in the country have to tolerate it and deal with it. The fact that the roads are dangerous just means that we have to try that much harder to be aware and be safe.

Flipping the bird to a car load of people at best is going to vent frustration. At the worst it could lead to some sort of confrontation, and I don't think the OP's confrontation was as bad as it could have gotten. Better to just acknowledge "oh jeez, this looks like another kook idiot coming" and say "time to get out of the way."

As far as another poster's comment that the attack may have had some racial motivation, well of course it might have, what would you expect? If I as a causasian male were to drive through the south side of Chicago flipping people off, there's a high probability that I would get my ass kicked too.

Of course there is a racial element. We are a society of different races. Some get along and some don't. But I don't think any course in Diplomacy 101 gives instructions on how to properly give someone the bird.

Obviously if someone tries to do violence on you for no reason, then you have a right to defend yourself. Having been a victim of unprovoked black on white racial hatred on more than one occasion, I can sympathize with those who have experienced it. But to provoke it and then complain after the fact, well I'm sorry, but I just don't have much sympathy.

[Pepe']

Let me weigh in on this. When you're suddenly attacked by 3 guys, two of whom are younger and stronger than you (I think I could have handled the driver who was smaller and older) and fists and feet are flying and you're trying your best to minimize the damage, you brain doesn't process information in terms of, gee, where is my pen...I gotta get the license plate of this truck ... where is some paper to write it down on... Ever get slammed in in head repeatedely, kicked in the ribs, slugged in the face all in a matter of seconds by three grown men? Quite a sensation and not pleasant. I was trying to survive, for god's sake. I guess I could have said: "hold on a second gentlemen, I need to record pertinent information vis-a'-vis your license plate, names, dates-of-birth, ID card numers, etc., before you continue to pound me into the ground. I doubt they would have obliged me. MEMORIZE the license plate? Shit, I never saw it! Even if I did there is no way I had the wherewithall to remember it.

$$$$$$$$$$$

Being on the ground getting the sh@t kicked out of you. I know the feeling although I was just a teen I remember it clearly.

Fortunately in my case my younger brother came to my aid with a baseball bat then he and I "liquified" the AHs. he did bring another bat.

I was raised in a real bad neighborhood in Newark, NJ.

You did good under the cicumstances...

[crazyeddie]

I never cease to be amazed by the near total insanity on the roads here. I am often tempted to give in to my feelings of road rage, and most times quickly just sort say "mai pen rai" and let it slide. I drove for many years in the states, and never smacked into any other vehicles. Sure, I got hit a few times, rear enders etc. and my rig hit while parked. I did manage to run into some small pickup driven by a Thai fellow here a few months ago. I was kind of having a bad day, on the rag or whatever, and I "had the right of way" when he pulled out right in front of me. So I smacked into him. Right away I felt like a jerk, his fender fell off, bumper nearly fell off, all it did to my truck was scratch some plastic on the corner. We pulled over and kind of discussed matters, and I said like "How about we just say mai pen rai? He had no license or insurance, and he smiled and said OK.

Lot of good posts on this thread, I think the one fellow who carrys a gun and waves it around might be looking for an all expenses paid stay at some luxury rebar hotel in the near future? Might beat getting killed tho, by some berserk Thai road ranger. Heck, let them keep on driving that way, they should become road pizza soon enough.

[rewket]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

[Payboy]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

well, he didn't actually say that he was in the burmese army ...

[highlander76]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

What sort of wan$ker are you this man got the sh$t kicked out him you are a total fool to think it is easy to fight more than one person at same time you do not know how old this man is

[kmart]

I think some sort of "James Bond" type vehicle modifications might be recommended here? Maybe machine guns subtly built into your car bumpers, or devices that fire oil / ball bearings into the weaving path of the 2-stroke nimrod trying to overtake you on the inside? Plus an ejector seat for the whining TW, obviously.

[bonobo]

I suffer from road rage. In the U.S., it's almost an epedemic there. Here it's a different animal. I was on my bike on Suk in Rayong trying to make a u-turn. Behind me was a pickup truck blasting it's horn at me to move along faster. There was a slight drizzle and a lot of oncoming traffic. I took my time as the pickup kept blasting it's horn. I gave him the finger - he kept blasting. The rain started to come down hard and I finally made the u-turn and turned into a Shell station for cover until the rain stopped. Much to my dismay, the pick-up pulled up behind me. A tarp unfurled from the back of the pick-up and two Thais who had been under it because of the rain, hopped out along with the driver. To make a long story short, they beat the snot out of me and sped away. I'll keep my road rage under control in Thailand. Lesson learned.

I am usually quite well-mannered, but when driving, I am a talker. I yell at other drivers to get through the u-turn, not to cut people off, get back in their lane, etc. Almost always, I am talking or yelling at myself where no one outside my car can hear.

But on rare occassions, I can't seem to help myself. I was almost hit by a young kid in a pick-up truck who came barrelling in to cut in front of me on a right turn instead of waiting his turn. If I hadn't seen him in my mirror and slammed on my brakes, he would have hit me as there is no way he could have stopped and he missed me by less than 6 inches. 50 m further, as traffic ground to a halt, I did give him the finger, not something I normally do. He got incensed and acted like he wanted to fight. I just made a point of laughing out loud and agreeing with him to step out.

Well, he backed down, but I don't know what came over me. I was a Marine for years, and I am in good shape. Maybe I am foolish, but I think I know how to handle myself and take care of most Thais I have met. But he could still have had a gun, or he could have been some sort of Muay Thai champ. Who knows?

I do carry a baseball bat in my car in case it ever comes down to self-defense. I have a somewhat imposing physique and can exhibit a lot of bluster if need be. But the best defense is never to get into an offensive situation. And I need to keep that in mind at all times.

I love Thailand and Thai people, but I can get pretty upset at some Thai drivers. I just need to keep that under control.

Edited June 11, 2008 by bonobo

[LooseCannon]

About two days there was an accident on Sukumvit Road at the Theprasit Intersection in Jomtien involving 3 schoolboys who where hit by a pickup while riding their motorbike to school. The bike got creamed and the kids (young teenagers) were all sprawled along the highway. What really spoke volumes about the society here is two of the kids got up and moved to the side of the road but the worst of the 3 was laying in road because his leg was split in half. The traffic behind the accident could not even foking wait for the injured boy to be moved or for an ambulance to come and assist him as they were all just driving around him as he laid in the middle of the highway.

When you look beneath the surface here, under layer is really feudal and ugly and I am strongly considering to just go back home where at least we have laws and people on the most part tend to be decent to each other or should I just let my kids grow up around 3rd Worlders like this?

Maybe you should have a look at this....

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/05/ignored.hitrun.ap/

I hope 'back home' is not Hartford, Connecticut.

Sh*t behaviour occurs all over the world, not just Thailand.

You can find similarities to almost anything all over the world, but the information is in how it differs.

In August of 2000, my 20-year-old niece was mercilessly run over by a hit-and-run driver in the Bronx, New York. She was crossing a neighborhood intersection of the Cross Bronx Expressway, and the green van ploughed right through her at high speed and never stopped. According to witnesses at the scene, and the evidence of her brain injury, she flew high up in the air and came crashing down on her skull. She was laid out in the middle of an expressway intersection, at night, in a pool of her own blood. The witnesses at the scene immediately ran over and surrounded her in the middle of the street. They called emergency services and deflected traffic from running over her again. They were sobbing at the scene, because she was such a young girl and looked so bad. They saved her life - strangers all of them. Eight years later, my niece is still struggling to walk, but she is a trooper and has a great physical therapist right now. The cops never found the culprit.

Here's the thing: did my niece cross against the light in the dark, did she see a dark-green, fast moving vehicle with her poor eyesight, did she just smoke a splif after her shift as she was known to do back then? I don't know, but it doesn't matter because the driver is a savage for not stopping, but then maybe that is my bias.

Here's another thing: my family are all immigrants, and I spend my life defending their rights, but we need to always evaluate public policy with a clear eye. There has been a move and debate in the United States to give illegal immigrants driving licenses, because the spike in hit-and-run drivers has been correlated with illegal immigrants, including the case you cite above, and others. In the case of my niece? - we don't know, because there are also a large proportion of hit-and-run drivers that are never found, and there are savage people amongst all nationalities and races. Many are also unlicensed or revoked licensed drivers, with nothing to lose. However, public policy and rules and regulations or the lack thereof has a way of turning more normal, every day people into savages.

I am for the issuing of driving licenses to illegal immigrants because it just makes good, pragmatic public policy, and more enforcements for unlicensed drivers, but the case for LOS is much more entrenched because we are dealing with culture, not policies. I personally still feel safer as a pedestrian and passenger in the States, because problems are recognized as problems by the authorities, and that is the first step in addressing it. Buses come to a full stop, people stop at traffic lights, it is illegal to block the way of emergency services, and I don't have to worry about getting run over on a sidewalk. We all have problems, but it's the basic stuff that tells a story.

Go ahead and flame away.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75BC0A9629C8B63

Immigrants Face Loss of Licenses in ID Crackdown

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...401/ai_n9407316

Federal data highlight state hit-and-run trend

http://www.deadlyroads.com/whydriversrun.shtml

Why Drivers Hit and Run?

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

The hit-kill-and-run state: Arizona nears grim title

Studies suggest high rate has link to illegal migrants

"You can find similarities to almost anything all over the world, but the information is in how it differs."

I am not exactly sure as to what point you are trying to make with the above comment, so I will attempt to explain what I meant by my comment.

JimmyTheMook takes an incident that he witnessed, & from the behaviour that was exhibited by other road users he comes to the conclusion that Thai

society is 'feudal & ugly'. I post a link to a news item that shows exactly the same type of behaviour being displayed by Westerners, with the

comment that the type of behaviour he witnessed is not confined to Thailand.

Now, using the above logic, do I conclude that Americans are "feudal & ugly"? Please note you can substitute English, German, Australian or any other

nationality, as I don't doubt that this sort of behaviour occurs in all countries.

"... but the case for LOS is much more entrenched because we are dealing with culture, not policies. I personally still feel safer as a pedestrian

and passenger in the States, because problems are recognized as problems by the authorities, and that is the first step in addressing it."

I am assuming by policies you mean licensing requirements, driver education & training programs, law enforcement etc.

I agree with you that these 'policies' are almost totally non-existent in Thailand, but that is the nature of a third world country, governments

prioritize different things. But the fact is countries that have high levels of driver education & training etc still have alarmingly high incidents

of 'hit & run', not stopping at the scene of an accident, not giving assistence to injured pedestrians/road users, not stopping at red lights & every

other form of sh*t driving & public road usage. The streets in a western country are not safe, they are just safer than Thailand, & eventually after

10 years, 20 years, 30 years time road safety will approach the level of that of a western country.

Thanks for the interesting links, which got me thinking....

These are a few quotes from the website... http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

"Arizona consistently has one of the nation's highest rates of fatal hit-and-run crashes.

And some statistical evidence suggests the state's large number of illegal immigrants is one reason."

"And where information is known about drivers in Arizona fatal hit-and-runs, only 1.5 percent have Mexican licenses; 90 percent have Arizona

licenses."

If 90% of the 'hit & run' drivers caught have valid drivers licenses, one would presume that these people have met all the relevant licensing

requirements & have completed all the required driver education & training, yet they still behaviour in a totally criminal manner.

Another quote...

"Traffic safety experts say reducing hit-and-run crashes is difficult because many who commit the crime already have lost their license."

Even 'many' of the unlicensed drivers have previousely held a license, so have presumably been through the same education process.

Can we assume that 90% of the licensed 'hit & run' drivers that did not get caught also had valid Arizona licenses?

There were a lot of anecdotal type statements which really were not backed up by any statistics.

I am not sure of the motivation behind this article but it seems to me that it is a lot easier to blame 'illegal immigrants' for something that is

probably a failure of the education & training programs. I did not see any mention of a downward trend in total numbers of 'hit & runs' so it is hard

to judge how effective these programs are. What sort of statistics are available for 5 years ago, 10 years ago?

The point I am making is that I take exception to somebody labelling Thai people as 'feudal & ugly' & then saying he would prefer to be 'back home'

where people "tend to be decent to each other" (just like those pedestrians in the video?) as if that country is some kind of paradigm of virtue.

"Go ahead and flame away." - absolutely no intention of doing that.

I am sorry about your niece & sincerely hope that she gets well soon.

[rewket]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

What sort of wan$ker are you this man got the sh$t kicked out him you are a total fool to think it is easy to fight more than one person at same time you do not know how old this man is

thais are so small... doesnt matter

A nyways i did the same thing he did today and also gave a wave with a smile at the same time(blocking him and not moving when there was no traffic) obviously the thai man just speed away and keeps honking freely. Always funny.

[HS Mauberley]

^ Fantasists of the world unite. You have nothing to loose but your grasp on reality.

[cluezo]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

What sort of wan$ker are you this man got the sh$t kicked out him you are a total fool to think it is easy to fight more than one person at same time you do not know how old this man is

First of all thanks, highlander. Secondly, "rewet," I was never in the Army - I was in the Marines (two combat tours, 2 Purple Hearts, and a Bronze Star). I was also the Marine/Navy lightweight boxing champ two years in a row and took 2nd place in the All Forces Sniping Competion in 1970. Don't make me out to be a pussy. I know/knew how to fight and kill Thirdly, it was not 2 Thais who attacked me, it was 3! And two of them were young strong, tough bastards. You think Thais are all small? Better get rid of that stereotype. Lastly, Vietnam was a long time ago. I'm 60 years old now. I sufferered a stroke in November. I have less motor control on the right side of my body. I'm the first to admit the I can't fight my way outside a wet paper bag. And I admit it was stupid to flip the bird. But I did, Might do it again, who knows? I'm old now and not the ass-kicker I once once was but don't insult me again. You don't have a clue.

[JUDAS]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

What sort of wan$ker are you this man got the sh$t kicked out him you are a total fool to think it is easy to fight more than one person at same time you do not know how old this man is

First of all thanks, highlander. Secondly, "rewet," I was never in the Army - I was in the Marines (two combat tours, 2 Purple Hearts, and a Bronze Star). I was also the Marine/Navy lightweight boxing champ two years in a row and took 2nd place in the All Forces Sniping Competion in 1970. Don't make me out to be a pussy. I know/knew how to fight and kill Thirdly, it was not 2 Thais who attacked me, it was 3! And two of them were young strong, tough bastards. You think Thais are all small? Better get rid of that stereotype. Lastly, Vietnam was a long time ago. I'm 60 years old now. I sufferered a stroke in November. I have less motor control on the right side of my body. I'm the first to admit the I can't fight my way outside a wet paper bag. And I admit it was stupid to flip the bird. But I did, Might do it again, who knows? I'm old now and not the ass-kicker I once once was but don't insult me again. You don't have a clue.

Well said Cluezo. Respect to you.

[cluezo]

Well said Cluezo. Respect to you.

Thanks, bro, you a vet?

[cluezo]

thais are so small... doesnt matter

"thais are so small... doesnt matter" ... Wow! When is the last time you've seen an eye doctor? I teach in a large public high school in Rayong. There are many, many boys as big and tough as Mike Tyson. Do you actually live in Thailand? I sure as hel_l hope that you don't teach English here because from the two samples I've received from you, you command of the English language is awful. Please tell me you're a hog farmer in Mississippi or someplace similar. And come to my school -- I show you some HUGE Thai boys....

[HS Mauberley]

^ Don't worry about it. Have a look at some of the other posts this guy's made - he's just itching to wind someone up and to get a reaction.

[gymshark]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

So what's your combat experience? I bet you are a real warrior eh? Ever faught more than one person at a time hero?

[Neeranam]

My friend's son was driving his mercedes in Bangkok and got into a argument with a pick-up driver. The pick-up(probably a toyota hilux) overtook him and made him stop. The driver walked up and shot him in the head.

I've had someone run at me with a crowbar but never got hurt. Stood in a kung-<deleted> stance and shouted to come on - he stopped and walked away.

Be very careful.

[HS Mauberley]

My friend's son was driving his mercedes in Bangkok and got into a argument with a pick-up driver. The pick-up(probably a toyota hilux) overtook him and made him stop. The driver walked up and shot him in the head.

<deleted> me. I've been a bit of a <deleted>, shouting at people when I've been riding my scooter and they've cut me up but I think in future I'll take a more conciliatory approach.

[cluezo]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

So what's your combat experience? I bet you are a real warrior eh? Ever faught more than one person at a time hero?

Surprising remark coming from you. I ain't no hero but during the TET Offensive my squad and I (8) held off some 30 or so NVA. Tit-to-tit shooting followed by fixed bayonets - lotta shit went down that night - I didn't. Yeah I fought more than one at a time - a few times actually. Why are you mocking me?? I don't understand your animosity.

[kat]

Go ahead and flame away.

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

The hit-kill-and-run state: Arizona nears grim title

Studies suggest high rate has link to illegal migrants

Not gonna flame away. Sorry to hear about your niece and hope she continues to progress in her recovery.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, though. You indicate that you think illegal immigrants should be entitled to a drivers license but then give all kinds of evidence of poor driving by illegal immigrants leading to preventable injury and death. I don't think illegal immigrants should have licenses. It just legitimizes their illegal immigration and poor driving habits. It's just wrong.

Back to the OP, I suspect the bad driving situation in LoS has always been this way, or at least for the last 20-30 years of growing private and public transportation. I've driven in a lot of different areas of the world, and would not consider what I've seen and read about in LoS to be that different from other parts of the world.

By comparison, major US expressways in and around Boston, New York, Washington, DC, Chicago, LA, Las Vegas, etc., are complete zoos. A large portion of the drivers are likely to be unlicensed and uninsured, and people will be driving all speeds in all lanes. Local speed limits and redlights are ignored. Amber lights used to mean slow down because the red is coming, but now they mean the opposite.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my niece. The point I am trying to make is about the efficacy of public policy rather than personal feelings about right and wrong. I don't have all the answers on this dilemma, but then neither does anyone at the moment, because there are no perfect solutions. Whether we like it or not, the U.S. employs illegal immigrants in all sorts of jobs that in many ways benefit the economy, but like all things, incurs a cost. Increasingly, researchers are finding that one of the social costs is a spike in hit-and-run fatalities. Of course there are non-illegal immigrants and Americans involved in hit-an-run accidents and fatalities, but it does not explain the spike, involves a large proportion of young drivers and and past abusers (drugs, violations), and a possible smaller number who are interested in the punitive costs of their insurance.

If we are seeing hit-and-run accidents among licensed and unlicensed illegal immigrants, who has the best chance of being caught? It seems to me that authorities are more successful in tracking down the people with paperwork already in the system. That is a good thing, because it gives us an opportunity to both define and address the situation, and that is much better than having a larger proportion of phantom drivers out there, which is the case with unlicensed drivers whether we like it or not. I'd much rather increase the chances of being able to find and apprehend a driver, and that is what I mean by trumping personal feelings over wrong or right with pragmatic public policies. For the other problem drivers, I'd like to see stricter enforcements on license violations and driving under the influence, and perhaps we also need to ask questions about the structure of punitive increases on car insurance. Is it helping the public good or hindering it? This is just a question and I don't yet feel confident of the answer, but I think it is worth pondering.

And I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion "that a large portion of drivers" in the American cities you cite are "unlicensed or uninsured". What basis are you citing this on, your own visual identification? In Thailand, you don't even have a reliable system for licensing drivers never mind insurance, so I'm not sure how you can conclude that by comparison they are "complete zoos". Red lights and traffic rules are not ignored by the majority of drivers, and when they are, they are liable for a ticket and a progression of demerits on their drivers license.

[cluezo]

Rewket needs immediate serious medical attention - not to mention English lessons.

[Spee]

And I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion "that a large portion of drivers" in the American cities you cite are "unlicensed or uninsured". What basis are you citing this on, your own visual identification?

As an example of a worst case scenario, I would encourage you to do some research on Maywood (Los Angeles) California. Maywood is 97% Hispanic and only about half the population are US citizens. In an effort to prevent what they felt was police racial discrimination, the city council disbanded the police department's traffic enforcement division because it "unfairly" stereotyped and profiled illegal immigrants. Well, duh ... if half the population are known to be in the country illegally then it can hardly be called profiling, can it?

The only facts verified by statistics are that almost all vehicular offenses (lack of license, lack of insurance, stolen cars, etc.) and general area crime were being committed by illegal immigrants. Yet by de-nutting the local police, the city council effectively condoned and validated the illegal activities at the discomfort and expense of those trying to abide by the law. Other large metropolitan areas with large groups of illegal immigrants (Boston, Chicago, NYC, San Diego, etc.) are no better. By ignoring existing laws or condoning illegal activity, the governments do nothing but make the situation worse, eventually to the point where there is anarchy.

As far as Thailand goes, if there is a problem with licensing then this is something that needs to be fixed, probably best done through a government agency. However, when it comes to insurance, I don't think any government has a right to mandate insurance. History has shown clearly that all these measures do is promote corruption and encourage people to try to "save" money by skirting the law and not buying insurance.

I think you will find that in most or all US states where insurance is mandatory by law, the states are also "no-fault" states. IN other words, when there is an accident, no one is at fault and each goes to their own insurance company for compensation. But there is obviously a problem here. Why should one have to go to their own insurance company where accidents are very clearly someone else's fault? It's Catch-22 corruption between the insurance companies and the government.

In the event of an accident or a traffic violation, I'm perfectly fine with settling things on the spot with a transaction agreed to by all parties involved. Keep the lawyers, legislators and courts out of it, unless there is something very serious such as injury or death by negligence such as speeding, drunking driving, unlicensed driving, etc.

[kat]

About two days there was an accident on Sukumvit Road at the Theprasit Intersection in Jomtien involving 3 schoolboys who where hit by a pickup while riding their motorbike to school. The bike got creamed and the kids (young teenagers) were all sprawled along the highway. What really spoke volumes about the society here is two of the kids got up and moved to the side of the road but the worst of the 3 was laying in road because his leg was split in half. The traffic behind the accident could not even foking wait for the injured boy to be moved or for an ambulance to come and assist him as they were all just driving around him as he laid in the middle of the highway.

When you look beneath the surface here, under layer is really feudal and ugly and I am strongly considering to just go back home where at least we have laws and people on the most part tend to be decent to each other or should I just let my kids grow up around 3rd Worlders like this?

Maybe you should have a look at this....

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/05/ignored.hitrun.ap/

I hope 'back home' is not Hartford, Connecticut.

Sh*t behaviour occurs all over the world, not just Thailand.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75BC0A9629C8B63

Immigrants Face Loss of Licenses in ID Crackdown

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa37...401/ai_n9407316

Federal data highlight state hit-and-run trend

http://www.deadlyroads.com/whydriversrun.shtml

Why Drivers Hit and Run?

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

The hit-kill-and-run state: Arizona nears grim title

Studies suggest high rate has link to illegal migrants

"You can find similarities to almost anything all over the world, but the information is in how it differs."

I am not exactly sure as to what point you are trying to make with the above comment, so I will attempt to explain what I meant by my comment.

JimmyTheMook takes an incident that he witnessed, & from the behaviour that was exhibited by other road users he comes to the conclusion that Thai

society is 'feudal & ugly'. I post a link to a news item that shows exactly the same type of behaviour being displayed by Westerners, with the

comment that the type of behaviour he witnessed is not confined to Thailand.

Now, using the above logic, do I conclude that Americans are "feudal & ugly"? Please note you can substitute English, German, Australian or any other

nationality, as I don't doubt that this sort of behaviour occurs in all countries.

"... but the case for LOS is much more entrenched because we are dealing with culture, not policies. I personally still feel safer as a pedestrian

and passenger in the States, because problems are recognized as problems by the authorities, and that is the first step in addressing it."

I am assuming by policies you mean licensing requirements, driver education & training programs, law enforcement etc.

I agree with you that these 'policies' are almost totally non-existent in Thailand, but that is the nature of a third world country, governments

prioritize different things. But the fact is countries that have high levels of driver education & training etc still have alarmingly high incidents

of 'hit & run', not stopping at the scene of an accident, not giving assistence to injured pedestrians/road users, not stopping at red lights & every

other form of sh*t driving & public road usage. The streets in a western country are not safe, they are just safer than Thailand, & eventually after

10 years, 20 years, 30 years time road safety will approach the level of that of a western country.

Thanks for the interesting links, which got me thinking....

These are a few quotes from the website... http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107513

"Arizona consistently has one of the nation's highest rates of fatal hit-and-run crashes.

And some statistical evidence suggests the state's large number of illegal immigrants is one reason."

"And where information is known about drivers in Arizona fatal hit-and-runs, only 1.5 percent have Mexican licenses; 90 percent have Arizona

licenses."

If 90% of the 'hit & run' drivers caught have valid drivers licenses, one would presume that these people have met all the relevant licensing

requirements & have completed all the required driver education & training, yet they still behaviour in a totally criminal manner.

Another quote...

"Traffic safety experts say reducing hit-and-run crashes is difficult because many who commit the crime already have lost their license."

Even 'many' of the unlicensed drivers have previousely held a license, so have presumably been through the same education process.

Can we assume that 90% of the licensed 'hit & run' drivers that did not get caught also had valid Arizona licenses?

There were a lot of anecdotal type statements which really were not backed up by any statistics.

I am not sure of the motivation behind this article but it seems to me that it is a lot easier to blame 'illegal immigrants' for something that is

probably a failure of the education & training programs. I did not see any mention of a downward trend in total numbers of 'hit & runs' so it is hard

to judge how effective these programs are. What sort of statistics are available for 5 years ago, 10 years ago?

The point I am making is that I take exception to somebody labelling Thai people as 'feudal & ugly' & then saying he would prefer to be 'back home'

where people "tend to be decent to each other" (just like those pedestrians in the video?) as if that country is some kind of paradigm of virtue.

"Go ahead and flame away." - absolutely no intention of doing that.

I am sorry about your niece & sincerely hope that she gets well soon.

Thank you for your concern about my niece. Her life was changed irrevocably by a phantom driver in a green SUV, who probably woke up the next day and had breakfast as usual while she was fighting for her life in a coma. Her spirits are good, and she called me last week to talk about the major milestone of being able to walk with a cane sometimes. She is not even thirty yet.

"You can find similarities to almost anything all over the world, but the information is in how it differs." (Kat quote)

The point I'm making is that we all have to eat, we are all born and die, and we all bleed, but if you used those general similarities as a basis to compare how all societies are alike, you'd make some very flawed assumptions.

I think you are right about every society having its share of bad behavior and problems, but my point is that it is not for the same reasons, and problems are not even identified in the same way, because of different values. The legal and enforcement codes of a society are a direct product of cultural values, and societies will find a way to prioritize the most important even with varying economies and GDPs. You will find examples of this all over the world, and I think it is obvious enough for me to avoid elaborating it here.

It is a fact that Thailand is a traditional society with a feudal history and culture, and is in transition. However, Thai traditional culture is still valued as the highest standard in the Country, and traditional Thai culture is feudal. Again, this is obvious and if you need me to substantiate it with academic references I will send you a PM, but I don't think you do. You can see elements of feudal culture in modern Thai society, that have been substituted with modern scenarios and objects. During the Sak Dina system, everyone in Thai society had a numbered rank so that they would be sure of their place in relation to others. In contemporary Thailand, mobile phones and other outward displays of wealth and groupings serve to announce your "rank" to others, and on the road it is clearly obvious with the law of "big" vehicles and "little" vehicles, including the make and price of the vehicle. Some people view this as charming or quaint, some people view it as neutral or non-existent, and some people think it is distasteful. Jimmy the Mook stated both a fact and his own opinion. We are all free to disagree with opinion, but unless you can refute it with fact you are simply advocating another opinion, which makes for interesting discussions.

LooseCannon QUOTE: "I post a link to a news item that shows exactly the same type of behaviour being displayed by Westerners, with the

comment that the type of behaviour he witnessed is not confined to Thailand.

Now, using the above logic, do I conclude that Americans are "feudal & ugly"? Please note you can substitute English, German, Australian or any other

nationality, as I don't doubt that this sort of behaviour occurs in all countries."

No, because I think your logic is faulty. When you look at all the elements, it is not exactly the same, which was my point. You posted a news item to a hit-and-run fatality, which has been traced to an illegal immigrant, which is now recognized as a wider pattern in other cities, and is under investigation and ongoing research scrutiny. In other words, it's recognized as a problem and challenge. It does not mean that non-illegal immigrants and American citizens are not under scrutiny, but rather that illegal immigrants are now falling under a pattern of other problematic and high-risk driving scenarios, such as chronic substance abuse drivers and traffic violators. It is common sense and good public policy to recognize and respond to emerging patterns, especially when they are endangering public safety. That was my point. *In addition, it helps protect law-abiding immigrants by focusing punitive action on those who deserve it, and not the larger population by association.

In Thailand, there are weak enforcements in every sphere of government and public policy, because Thai culture and the associated feudal values such as nepotism, "big" face over "little" face, and more direct historical implications for civil servants and bribes constitute public policy and trump legal codes. That was my other point about it being more complicated in Thailand, because it largely concerns culture, and not a developed, codified public policy and legal system.

In terms of your other points about the article, you are talking about only one, and it is a newspaper article. I gave you other examples, and it is only an example, including your own. However, there are plenty of other corroborating articles all over the internet and in other regions, and again, this is simply to point to one emerging trend in a multi-faceted issue. However, it is viewed as an issue in the West that needs to be addressed, and that is my other point. In Thailand, it is just the way it is, isn't it?

As for the training and education aspect of your point, the issue in the States is that again, they are fleeing a legal environment, of either having too many violations, outstanding warrants or arrests for drugs, high insurance costs, driver license violations or lack thereof, or lack of citizenship. This is a pattern of a selected demographic. It is much different than a wide-spread cultural norm of a wide-variety of driving and road safety violations.

I have to work on something important today, and may not be able to respond in a timely manner as soon. My apologies in advance, but I will check back in a day or two.

*edit - typos

Edited June 11, 2008 by kat

[highlander76]

you said you used to be in the army and you could not withstand 2 thais?...

Sounds like a troll to me

What sort of wan$ker are you this man got the sh$t kicked out him you are a total fool to think it is easy to fight more than one person at same time you do not know how old this man is

thais are so small... doesnt matter

A nyways i did the same thing he did today and also gave a wave with a smile at the same time(blocking him and not moving when there was no traffic) obviously the thai man just speed away and keeps honking freely. Always funny.

You are w&nker for sure I do not think you know thais at all sure some of them are small but believe me some of them are hard as nails you are just the sort of fool with no brains who end up going home in a coffin