Tiger Temple - Kanchanaburi - Update

[Pierrot]

you have spent your life doing NOTHING ...

Sorry for asking, but after such a rant, a question jumps to mind, what have you personally done so far ?

[Nignoy]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........

asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted

My My you have got your jockstrap in a twist we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented, how can you say we have stood by and let things happen, I personally started in wildlife conservation as a 12 year old in Kenya in the 50,s have worked with gorilla and chimpanzee rescue in the congo, returning the first group of captive bred orangs to the wild in 73have been involved in prosecuting animal smugglers in europe, had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s I could go on and on!! well if thats letting things happen without acting, well I think your are talking Twonk And as far as your comments about husbandry goes, parts of my animal husbandry manuals are standard working practises in zoo,s world wide. Oh and another little achievement with the help of Professor Seiffert from Dresden and Leipzig zoo,s we set up the World Stud books for Siberian tigers which encouraged other proffessionals to start other endangered species Stud books. With my Director Franz Stettner in Aachen we started the first zoo and wildlfe school for classes of school children , this as also common practise in many zoo,s today, So I think I can hold my head up, we have also had a few successes in being the first institution to be breed different endangered species of wildlife,no camera,s publicity or sleight of hand , just hard work and the knowledge tthat we will succeed. Nignoy

[Pierrot]

Reason for edit : after Nignoy answer, nothing much to add.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Pierrot

[tw25rw]

Quite seperate from issues around the tiger temple, I've been digging around looking for evidence of CWI being a legitimate animal welfare charity and am finding it pretty thin on the ground. I find them associating themselves with other organisations and supposedly recruiting sponsorships for animals in the care of these organisations, but that these references aren't reciprocated. It seems the only animals they directly take care of are wild animals that they have given cute names to. How sponsoring a wild polar bear or dolphin works isn't explained.

I also found mention of a report they were planning to do to present to CITES with the (help of donations).

I can find no evidence however that they actually do anything constructive other than collect donations (some of it by schools) and produce websites to encourage donation from the public.

I also haven't yet worked out how many people they employ in conservation roles or what their turnover is or whether they actually have the resources to commit to a 3 year study of the tiger temple other than accumulated hearsay and negative opinions from various forums (not to mention their feable video evidence of "cruelty")..

So, as far as I can see, they don't really exist as a wildlife conservation organisation outside of an office in Sussex. Some or all of what they say in their campaigns may be true, but I don't trust their motives for publishing it.

[Pierrot]

Quite seperate from issues around the tiger temple, I've been digging around looking for evidence of CWI being a legitimate animal welfare charity and am finding it pretty thin on the ground. I find them associating themselves with other organisations and supposedly recruiting sponsorships for animals in the care of these organisations, but that these references aren't reciprocated. It seems the only animals they directly take care of are wild animals that they have given cute names to. How sponsoring a wild polar bear or dolphin works isn't explained.

I also found mention of a report they were planning to do to present to CITES with the (help of donations).

I can find no evidence however that they actually do anything constructive other than collect donations (some of it by schools) and produce websites to encourage donation from the public.

I also haven't yet worked out how many people they employ in conservation roles or what their turnover is or whether they actually have the resources to commit to a 3 year study of the tiger temple other than accumulated hearsay and negative opinions from various forums (not to mention their feable video evidence of "cruelty")..

So, as far as I can see, they don't really exist as a wildlife conservation organisation outside of an office in Sussex. Some or all of what they say in their campaigns may be true, but I don't trust their motives for publishing it.

Great job. CSI:TV at its best !

[wilko]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........

asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted

My My you have got your jockstrap in a twist we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented, how can you say we have stood by and let things happen, I personally started in wildlife conservation as a 12 year old in Kenya in the 50,s have worked with gorilla and chimpanzee rescue in the congo, returning the first group of captive bred orangs to the wild in 73have been involved in prosecuting animal smugglers in europe, had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s I could go on and on!! well if thats letting things happen without acting, well I think your are talking Twonk And as far as your comments about husbandry goes, parts of my animal husbandry manuals are standard working practises in zoo,s world wide. Oh and another little achievement with the help of Professor Seiffert from Dresden and Leipzig zoo,s we set up the World Stud books for Siberian tigers which encouraged other proffessionals to start other endangered species Stud books. With my Director Franz Stettner in Aachen we started the first zoo and wildlfe school for classes of school children , this as also common practise in many zoo,s today, So I think I can hold my head up, we have also had a few successes in being the first institution to be breed different endangered species of wildlife,no camera,s publicity or sleight of hand , just hard work and the knowledge tthat we will succeed. Nignoy

im getting increasingly suspicious of these people cliaming to be THai rescuers and having made TV programs with the Beeb etc without declaring what the program was but trying to get ID out of others....whyare you so keen to find out who these people are?

however....if you are who you claim to be it would help if you fill in ALL the details...as you and i are aware the people connected with the Temple will not stop short of "the malckey".............

You may not be Thai....something I have assumed - am I wrong?

or are you just trying to put people off the scent?

i can't see you have any good reason for not publicising this place unless you have a vested interest in it...

the temple has tried posting some pretty naive comments on various web sites before...so maybe someone has got their duplicitous shit together now.....either way, i "smell a device"

[dotcom]

What nid needs to understand is that: unless & until he gets a shed load of red hot Thais, mad as hel_l about that Temple ; nothing is going to happen.

They don't like foreigners meddling in their affairs. Tiger parts = big money = you dead if they catch you at night up on the Lao border.

Get some film of them mistreating the animals or trafficing them. Maybe a local news show will run the film. If not = FORGET IT.

[wilko]

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

Edited June 24, 2008 by wilko

[saorsa]

however....if you are who you claim to be it would help if you fill in ALL the details...as you and i are aware the people connected with the Temple will not stop short of "the malckey".............

dam_n, what part of scotland did you grow up in spelling malkey with a 'c'?

My personal opinion from having visited the temple in January this year is that the situation of the tigers at TT is probably the best they could hope for in this part of the world. That doesnt excuse abuse, but TBH, I dont really see that any of the abuse shown in videos or talked about on these websites is that severe. They would have a lot tougher time in the wild where cannibalism among tigers by the fathers and territorial fights that can leave them crippled or dead, being poisened or shot by poachers are a fairly regular occurence (or at least according to the BBC and DIscovery channel documentaries I have seen).

[Nignoy]

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

without giving out my name and address who or what am I,son of a career soldier raised in UK, HK and kenya, at age of 14 joined british army as an apprentice, served Operation Crown in Thailand from 1963 to 1966, was injured and pensioned of in 69 , trained as zookeeper in hannover,from 70 till having to retire in 2002 have had a successful career in zoo,s and wildlife protection,my last big volontary job was training keepers for a funny little chappie called Steve Irwin at Australia zoo in queensland. But all this is well documented in many previous threads, there are even members who reside in thailand who have served or bumped into me in one country or another even though I am 80% disabled , I still do what I can, as we speak a compilation of my australian wildlife papers are being used as guidelines for for wildlife care in Queensland. Seeing as my life interests you so much I presented Ronald and Nancy Reagan with a pair of our captive bred American Bald eagle babies on their visit to Bonn late70,s early 80,s I look real sweet in my lederhosen, but hey who gives a shit, until 1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60,s Nignoy

[wilko]

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

without giving out my name and address who or what am I,son of a career soldier raised in UK, HK and kenya, at age of 14 joined british army as an apprentice, served Operation Crown in Thailand from 1963 to 1966, was injured and pensioned of in 69 , trained as zookeeper in hannover,from 70 till having to retire in 2002 have had a successful career in zoo,s and wildlife protection,my last big volontary job was training keepers for a funny little chappie called Steve Irwin at Australia zoo in queensland. But all this is well documented in many previous threads, there are even members who reside in thailand who have served or bumped into me in one country or another even though I am 80% disabled , I still do what I can, as we speak a compilation of my australian wildlife papers are being used as guidelines for for wildlife care in Queensland. Seeing as my life interests you so much I presented Ronald and Nancy Reagan with a pair of our captive bred American Bald eagle babies on their visit to Bonn late70,s early 80,s I look real sweet in my lederhosen, but hey who gives a shit, until 1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60,s Nignoy

"1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60" - why?

doesnt read too good does it?

some highly dubious contacts....I'm afraid you look to me to be an apologist....Steve Irwin...highly contraversial...reagan....now there's a name I'd hardly connect with conservation...conservatism ..Yes........

sorry but it just makes me all the more suspicious of you.

but at least we can see the sortof company you keep.

Lederhosen eh?...that begs a few questions too.

Sorry this is getting off topic...but I don't trust your motives....or connections.

Edited June 25, 2008 by wilko

[Doza]

Nignoy - you say you represent an organisation that undertakes formal conservation work.

Please name the organisation.

we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented

We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species

we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we purchase the animals or birds concerned

[Goshawk]

had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s

really ?

what was the full title of this, i'd like to see it..

[wilko]

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

Edited June 25, 2008 by wilko

[Pierrot]

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

Call me stupid, but I just read the complete thread for the third time and I still understand what you want us to do.

You start with a link to an organization who denounces the tiger Temple. OK.

You call Nignoy "old school". Fine, progress can be good.

But from there, where do we go?

[Nignoy]

So To answer a few questions,

!/ The name of the Documentary Was Jagd auf der Vier(Hunt for the four) About the hunt for 4 baby orangutans stolen from authorities in Borneo, and the worlwide pursuit ,capture and punishment of the smugglers and Dealers concerned,

2/ I have never stated that my friends and I belong to any form of official organisation,we are just a like minded group of people who have come to gether over the last 30 years.

3/ to cast doubt on the legality of Operation Crown is an Insult to the soldiers who served,The british government denied sending Royal Engineers to build airfields, roads and Bridges in Northeast thailand as part of a commonwealth operation Before the start of the Vietnam war,British soldiers that died on this operation were buried in Singapore,unbeknown to their wives and other dependants, who were told they had lost their lives on training exercise in UK or BAOR, they were delivered closed coffins which they believed were their deceased loved ones to bury, I was with a young Sapper Jim Box when he was shot and killed. When I got back to UK I visited his parents to offer my condolences as I was the last person to see him alive, They threw me out calling me all the lying bastards under the sun,his parents both went to there graves not knowing the truth, It took me over 30 years to locate the grave and document it and notify his sister. Australia only acknowledged Op Crown in 1989,

As far as Steve Irwin is concernedI have had enough critism from Australian TV members for criticising him, because I trained some of his staff does not mean I liked him or his work ,I thought that teaching the correct Animal Husbandry practise, is another way to combat cruelty and neglect of animals in captivity,

I think this has got far enough away from the theme of the Temple someone mentioned earlier that thai,s dont take to outsiders meddling in their affairs, So lets agree to disagree Nignoy

[wilko]

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

Call me stupid, but I just read the complete thread for the third time and I still understand what you want us to do.

You start with a link to an organization who denounces the tiger Temple. OK.

You call Nignoy "old school". Fine, progress can be good.

But from there, where do we go?

Hey if the cap fits....why do you ask ME questions like that?

[Doza]

I have never stated that my friends and I belong to any form of official organisation

Doesn't sounds like that to me. Sounds like you are trying to come across pretty official here (especially if you are purchasing animals for protection / conservation!):

QUOTE

we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented

QUOTE

We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species

QUOTE

we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we purchase the animals or birds concerned

And if your "successes are well documented" where are they documented?

All sounds a little weird to me.....

[wilko]

So To answer a few questions,

!/ The name of the Documentary Was Jagd auf der Vier(Hunt for the four) About the hunt for 4 baby orangutans stolen from authorities in Borneo, and the worlwide pursuit ,capture and punishment of the smugglers and Dealers concerned,

2/ I have never stated that my friends and I belong to any form of official organisation,we are just a like minded group of people who have come to gether over the last 30 years.

3/ to cast doubt on the legality of Operation Crown is an Insult to the soldiers who served,The british government denied sending Royal Engineers to build airfields, roads and Bridges in Northeast thailand as part of a commonwealth operation Before the start of the Vietnam war,British soldiers that died on this operation were buried in Singapore,unbeknown to their wives and other dependants, who were told they had lost their lives on training exercise in UK or BAOR, they were delivered closed coffins which they believed were their deceased loved ones to bury, I was with a young Sapper Jim Box when he was shot and killed. When I got back to UK I visited his parents to offer my condolences as I was the last person to see him alive, They threw me out calling me all the lying bastards under the sun,his parents both went to there graves not knowing the truth, It took me over 30 years to locate the grave and document it and notify his sister. Australia only acknowledged Op Crown in 1989,

As far as Steve Irwin is concernedI have had enough critism from Australian TV members for criticising him, because I trained some of his staff does not mean I liked him or his work ,I thought that teaching the correct Animal Husbandry practise, is another way to combat cruelty and neglect of animals in captivity,

I think this has got far enough away from the theme of the Temple someone mentioned earlier that thai,s dont take to outsiders meddling in their affairs, So lets agree to disagree Nignoy

Well you were happy enough to use his name earlier and now you withdraw it......I reckon you haver and waver about a wee too much...first insinuating this connection and then denying that....the more you post the less credible you seem, and basically a comment like "Thais don't like..." is a very old reactionary concept.....basically a generalization used to demonise a group of people for your own advantage,in this case your stance on the Tiger Temple which despite your protests you have failed to convince me you have ever done anything about except tell others to stay well away.

Edited June 25, 2008 by wilko

[Pierrot]

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

Call me stupid, but I just read the complete thread for the third time and I still understand what you want us to do.

You start with a link to an organization who denounces the tiger Temple. OK.

You call Nignoy "old school". Fine, progress can be good.

But from there, where do we go?

Hey if the cap fits....why do you ask ME questions like that?

Because you're the one who started this thread !

[Nignoy]

I have never stated that my friends and I belong to any form of official organisation

Doesn't sounds like that to me. Sounds like you are trying to come across pretty official here (especially if you are purchasing animals for protection / conservation!):

QUOTE

we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented

QUOTE

We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species

QUOTE

we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we purchase the animals or birds concerned

And if your "successes are well documented" where are they documented?

All sounds a little weird to me.....

As zoo curators or head keepers especially in Trade zoos, one is offered all forms of illegally obtained exotic wild life, posing as buyers we exposed bird smugglers in Holland and an international smuggling ring with Branches in Miami, Brussels and the Rheinland led by the infamous Hans Joachim Raak who was successfully prosecuted, he was later arrested for criminal activities in Togo and Executed, the animals and birds we have purchased were offered on the streets in many countries,ocelotcubs and parrots of all shapes and sizes in brazil,caracal and fenneck cubs in SA , baby chimps and bonobo,s and gorilla babies readily available on the streets in 70,s french controlled Brazzaville, luckily there was a primate rescue station and nursery just being estabelished which was to be later taken over by Helen Attwater and her husband Mark,much to the dismay of my second wife I spent my annual leaves visiting places where animals were being sold. as far as our documented successes, check Back numbers of The Bird Keeper, Wild Und Hund, Das Tier,Das Stern, sorry most of these are german or Swiss I spent most of my working life based in these 2 countries But this has nothing to do with Thailand Nignoy

PS if you back check some threads Here in TV you should find ample photo,s and articles where I was asked to prove who I was in earlier years

[jrbkk64]

I have read this entire thread and all I see is a bunch of "mature" men and women? argue with each other over who does more for wildlife and about their identities. The way less developed peoples treat ( even eat) wild and domestic animals today and for a long time to come is something our ancestors have also done. We can try to educate them, but in situations where money is in short supply in a developing country, this education will not help unless we find an alternative income for people involved.

Thinking about less developed countries then Thailand; do you really think the residents of countries/areas like Papua New Guinee, the north east of India, Myanmar etc. who supply a lot of this wildlife to traders/smugglers, understand or even want to understand, the potential disastrous consequences of their fight for survival every day?? As long as there is wildlife and poverty in the same country, we "rich" westerners have no right to judge the way we normally do. Let us work hard to eredicate poverty and find solutions to our future energy needs etc, etc.

I admire people who spend their life making sure animals get treated well, but I have a LOT more respect for people who spend their life battling poverty!!

[Doza]

Good smokescreen Nignoy but your response is all in the past tense - what you did in the past. But your statements earlier were clearly in the present tense - implying that you and your group are taking action nowdays, in Thailand, to do with wildlife conservation.

You're tangling yourself in knots mate.

Let me summarise:

"We investigate...:

"We are..."

"We continue..."

Versus:

"We exposed....("in Holland how many years ago?)

"The animals and birds we have purchased were offered on the streets..."(in Brazil and Brazzaville how many years ago?)

"...sorry most of these are german or Swiss I spent most of my working life based in these 2 countries But this has nothing to do with Thailand..."

- No sh*t mate - you make out earlier you are doing (present continuous tense) all this stuff to "stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected species" but when asked to show what you are doing you point to stuff that happened YEARS AGO which has nothing to do with Thailand!!!

To summarise your good self:

You used to be a zoo keeper

You used to work in wildlife rescue / anti trafficking etc etc

You now live in Thailand

You think the TT is ok because you have seen worse in other countries

You warn people not to get involved as your group ("we") are trying to fix it

But you can't describe what your group is doing except to point to stuff you did years ago (which has nothing to do with Thailand)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................

[medegen]

Nothing will ever come of it, except foreigners(me included) arguing on a forum about it. My wife and I own a travel company and our 2 most popular tours are Tiger Temple and Floating Market. That goes for almost every tour agency. Why would you think your ideals from the west would even enter the minds of a large majority of the Thai people, enough for them to make the temple close or bar them from keeping tigers? It just doesn't work that way and will not work that way for years to come, so until then lots of money will be made. As a write this my wife is booking the Tiger Temple for 12 people

Tiger Temple and Damnern Floating Market are the biggest sellers.

[Nignoy]

Good smokescreen Nignoy but your response is all in the past tense - what you did in the past. But your statements earlier were clearly in the present tense - implying that you and your group are taking action nowdays, in Thailand, to do with wildlife conservation.

You're tangling yourself in knots mate.

Let me summarise:

"We investigate...:

"We are..."

"We continue..."

Versus:

"We exposed....("in Holland how many years ago?)

"The animals and birds we have purchased were offered on the streets..."(in Brazil and Brazzaville how many years ago?)

"...sorry most of these are german or Swiss I spent most of my working life based in these 2 countries But this has nothing to do with Thailand..."

- No sh*t mate - you make out earlier you are doing (present continuous tense) all this stuff to "stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected species" but when asked to show what you are doing you point to stuff that happened YEARS AGO which has nothing to do with Thailand!!!

To summarise your good self:

You used to be a zoo keeper

You used to work in wildlife rescue / anti trafficking etc etc

You now live in Thailand

You think the TT is ok because you have seen worse in other countries

You warn people not to get involved as your group ("we") are trying to fix it

But you can't describe what your group is doing except to point to stuff you did years ago (which has nothing to do with Thailand)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................

ERRRR let me think , the last thing that I did concerning Thailand was filming protected bird species Major Mitchells, Eclectus Parrots , and Red tailed Black Cockatoo,s being offered for sale in Chatuchak Market, these species all had legal Australian parks and Wildlife papers(queensland and nsw)the export of australian birds is illegal, but there was a loophole in the law that enabled excess birds and animals to be offered on end of year surplus to stock lists, on my report back to QPW this loophole has now been closed and also filming in chatuchak has been stopped, that was in 2004 I have been to Thailand 5 times since then but due to health restraints not doing any form of research, But we are just starting to organise a lecture tour in Southeast asia so when we have everything finalised,I will publish dates For Ratchaburi , Hatyai,Butterworth KL and Singapore, then maybe some of you that have been so vociferous in your comments , will be able to stand up in our public Q and A session afterwards its always rather interesting, have enjoyed the comments and the critism, I maybe be old but I still have the abilty to listen and take on board new modern ideas, Nignoy

[Jimjim]

Didn't the OP start this same topic in one of the local forums like the Central Thailand forum about a year ago?

[sriracha john]

UK wildlife group slams Tiger Temple

A British conservation group has called on state wildlife agencies to look into alleged animal abuse and illegal tiger trafficking at a famous temple in Kanchanaburi province. A report by the group Care for the Wild International (CWI) claims the animals at the renowned ''Tiger Temple'' are kept in confined spaces and poorly cared for. The report also raised concerns over the safety of tourists, as they are allowed close contact with the animals. Since the worldwide broadcast of a documentary on the Animal Planet channel around 900 foreign tourists visit the temple on busy days, said the CWI, which made a two-year investigation into alleged wildlife abuse and smuggling. CWI chief executive Barbara Maas said the temple's popularity was based on claims its tigers were rescued from poachers and move freely and peacefully among monks who are actively engaged in conservation activities. "This utopian facade hides a sinister reality of unbridled violence and illegal trafficking of tigers between Thailand and Laos," she said. CWI claimed it has evidence that rather than rescuing orphaned tiger cubs the temple operates as an illegal breeding facility and is involved in the clandestine exchange of tigers with the owner of a tiger farm in Laos. CWI Southeast Asia Director Guna Subramaniam said the group had met with the temple's abbot to discuss the problems but he was reluctant to negotiate and showed no interest in reform. The group called on the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department to confiscate the tigers and transfer them to a sanctuary. The acting Deputy Director-General of the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department, Kamolwat Visetsiri, said the agency seized seven tigers and almost 300 other animals seven years ago, but could not find any guilty party. He said he would inspect the temple after acknowledging the

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/270608_News/27Jun2008_news14.php

[Doza]

So Nignoy - since you said "we" (your non formal group with "well documented results" on wildlife conservation [ but nothing to do with Thailand]) are trying to fix it (the Tiger Temple) can you explain how and when that's going to take place.

Appreciate you documented some bird stuff 4 years ago, but please - when you told all of us leave the Tiger Temple alone (shall I find the exact quotes?) and that your group was working to fix it (shall I get exact quotes again for the benefit of newbies on this thread?) - you surely had a plan in mind. Do share...

Or not.......you can always continue pointing to stuff you did years ago, but please - <deleted> off and don't tell us you are fixing the problems at the TT and that we should keep out of it.

And don't tell us to let it go because in our home countries there are simliar / worse animals abuse situations. Clearly that has nothing to do with this thread.

[TheDon]

Im sick of tigers anyway

[Nignoy]

So Nignoy - since you said "we" (your non formal group with "well documented results" on wildlife conservation [ but nothing to do with Thailand]) are trying to fix it (the Tiger Temple) can you explain how and when that's going to take place.

Appreciate you documented some bird stuff 4 years ago, but please - when you told all of us leave the Tiger Temple alone (shall I find the exact quotes?) and that your group was working to fix it (shall I get exact quotes again for the benefit of newbies on this thread?) - you surely had a plan in mind. Do share...

Or not.......you can always continue pointing to stuff you did years ago, but please - <deleted> off and don't tell us you are fixing the problems at the TT and that we should keep out of it.

And don't tell us to let it go because in our home countries there are simliar / worse animals abuse situations. Clearly that has nothing to do with this thread.

[/quote I dont recall ever saying leave the tiger temple alone, I do recall saying that I have spoken to the abbot on many occasions on the methods used with the tigers, a couple of us have tried suggestions to improve the husbandry of the place ,for example undertaking the microchipping and dna fingerprinting of the tigers, to eradicate the interchanging of cubs and maybe tracing where all the new cubs come from, implimenting a regulated veterinary care and vaccination regime,we just hope through perseverence we can achieve something!! is that so wrong, Nignoy