Condominiums In Rajadamri Road - Ok Or Not?

[MojoJojo]

The Rajadamri Road, particularly in Soi Mahardlekluang is bustling with new off-plan developments. There are at least 4 new projects being built (Baan Rajphrasong, The Rajdamri, Hansar Rajdamri, and St. Regis Residences).

I think their proximity to BTS, 5-star hotels, good hospitals and schools, and Lumpini Park is a good appeal for these projects. I also like that the area is generally quiet and not too crowded compared to other near BTS projects. The only big concern is that these projects are all leasehold condominiums (30 years lease) because the land is owned by The Royal Highness Treasury/ Privy Purse.

But I heard these projects are priced lower than equally good buildings, I guess because the land is only leased (price per sq.m. is 80,000 to 100,000 baht?).

Does anybody here bought a unit in any of the above projects? Do you think it is worth it even if it is leasehold?

Would appreciate feedback from those who are familiar with the projects. Thanks.

[trajan]

this is a great area in Bangkok (probably amongst the best inner city)!

but all projects (save for the upcoming 185 Rajadamri project) are leasehold and I personally prefer freehold, over leasehold...... but if you dont mind leasehold....

(a) if you have a very deep pocket, the large 53 St. Regis Residences (in the top floors of the St Regis Hotel) coming up fast next door to the Four Seasons Hotel, would be attractive:

45 four bedroom units (floors 25-39, with 3 units per floor)

(smallest is 345 sqm for Baht 50 million!) (bigger ones about 440 sq.meters)

4 regular penthouses (with private pool) (floors 40 and 41) (from 573 to 633 sq.meters)

4 duplex penthouses (with private pool) (floors 42-45) (from 684 sq.meters to 993 sq.meters)

( b ) smaller pockets might find

Hansar Residences attractive, because they will team up with Alila Hotels to rent out your unit when you are not using it....which may be a nice feature if you dont live in Bangkok full-time....

Edited June 25, 2008 by trajan

[pkrv]

I can only speak from personal experience in the UK - It cost me 5,000 GBP to move out of a leashold property with a 67 year lease left on it. No one would buy without 99 years.

For me Leashold is a matter of revenue for long term interests - examples are religions (For example the CofE own some of the freehold in Soho, the red light district in London (short term leases), or universities Bristol university (999 renewable leases).

It is an interesting one.

For me freehold is a must!

[dave111223]

Sorry for this ignorant question, but i'm always reading about leaseholds on here, but i don't really understand it?

If you buy a condo as leasehold (for say 30 years as in the OP's case) what happens at the end of 30 years? Who owns the condo after 30 years? Doesn't this mean you are not really "buying it", but just renting it for a long time?

[pkrv]

Sorry for this ignorant question, but i'm always reading about leaseholds on here, but i don't really understand it?

If you buy a condo as leasehold (for say 30 years as in the OP's case) what happens at the end of 30 years? Who owns the condo after 30 years? Doesn't this mean you are not really "buying it", but just renting it for a long time?

Yes you got it in one - you are renting for a very long time. You don't own the condo, after 30 years you move out (or re-longterm rent).

[pkrv]

Sorry for this ignorant question, but i'm always reading about leaseholds on here, but i don't really understand it?

If you buy a condo as leasehold (for say 30 years as in the OP's case) what happens at the end of 30 years? Who owns the condo after 30 years? Doesn't this mean you are not really "buying it", but just renting it for a long time?

Yes you got it in one - you are renting for a very long time. You don't own the condo, after 30 years you move out (or re-longterm rent).

Opps I should also say that a leashold is a depreciating asset, i.e as soon as you move in, it is worth less than you paid for it.

[steveromagnino]

actually, the 30 year lease means that after 30 years, the condo association has to renegotiate with the Crown Property Bureau (owners of the land) to renegotiate the lease. Which could involve either an additional payment to the CPB (which might be some proportion of buying the land outright) or could end up with everyone giving the building back.

I am not personally aware of how such a situation has unfolded before in Thailand having simply never actually encountered it, but not doubt what happens is that with multiple owners of the condo, they agree to new terms (or not) and the ones who don't want to agree then must sell out presumably to allow someone else to take over the lease liability....

185 is the only freehold development about to be built, the Sansiri project right next door is already built. The Sansiri project now fetches in the realm of 200,000b+ per sqm, and 185 is likely (total guess here) to be launched later 2008 to invitation only at pre launch prices starting around minimum 250,000b per sqm and probably higher, ranging up to the highest prices seen in Thailand to date, probably around 400,000b per sqm for the highest price.

Hansar sold I think from around 100-150,000b per sqm but it is no longer possible to build for those sorts of prices at any decent quality, so my guess is any other lease properties will sell starting around 120,000b absolute minimum in future; and that is for A quality, for A+ quality try 150,000+.

St Regis will be leasehold and will sell for a minimum (guess here) of about 180,000b per sqm absolute minimum and more likely 200-220,000b minimum, although the top units may not be quite as high as 185 or SukhoThai (which is now also 120 year leasehold for foreigners and until recently was still selling).

Of all these projects, St Regis will for sure be the highest end of the leaseholds, 185 will be probably as high quality but also freehold as a bonus; of the rest Hansar is the best; Baan Ratchaprasong is pretty average from what I've seen of it, but it is also a little lower priced as well.

There are a few more interesting projects coming onto the market; personally the reason I didn't like the Sansiri project was the noise of the skytrain every 3 minutes as it has a bit of a skreech and the glazing is not the same quality (the entire project actually) is not the same quality as somewhere like the Park. But oh my what a view from the units at the top on the Lumpini park side; hwoever no one is selling those, just the ones on the 185 side!!

There is a rumour that there is another development in Langsuan coming up just around the corner looking onto the park which will be an interesting one as it is freehold, not leasehold. I doubt you will see much in this area freehold below 200,000b again though.

[ray08]

actually, the 30 year lease means that after 30 years, the condo association has to renegotiate with the Crown Property Bureau (owners of the land) to renegotiate the lease. Which could involve either an additional payment to the CPB (which might be some proportion of buying the land outright) or could end up with everyone giving the building back.

I am not personally aware of how such a situation has unfolded before in Thailand having simply never actually encountered it, but not doubt what happens is that with multiple owners of the condo, they agree to new terms (or not) and the ones who don't want to agree then must sell out presumably to allow someone else to take over the lease liability....

185 is the only freehold development about to be built, the Sansiri project right next door is already built. The Sansiri project now fetches in the realm of 200,000b+ per sqm, and 185 is likely (total guess here) to be launched later 2008 to invitation only at pre launch prices starting around minimum 250,000b per sqm and probably higher, ranging up to the highest prices seen in Thailand to date, probably around 400,000b per sqm for the highest price.

Hansar sold I think from around 100-150,000b per sqm but it is no longer possible to build for those sorts of prices at any decent quality, so my guess is any other lease properties will sell starting around 120,000b absolute minimum in future; and that is for A quality, for A+ quality try 150,000+.

St Regis will be leasehold and will sell for a minimum (guess here) of about 180,000b per sqm absolute minimum and more likely 200-220,000b minimum, although the top units may not be quite as high as 185 or SukhoThai (which is now also 120 year leasehold for foreigners and until recently was still selling).

Of all these projects, St Regis will for sure be the highest end of the leaseholds, 185 will be probably as high quality but also freehold as a bonus; of the rest Hansar is the best; Baan Ratchaprasong is pretty average from what I've seen of it, but it is also a little lower priced as well.

There are a few more interesting projects coming onto the market; personally the reason I didn't like the Sansiri project was the noise of the skytrain every 3 minutes as it has a bit of a skreech and the glazing is not the same quality (the entire project actually) is not the same quality as somewhere like the Park. But oh my what a view from the units at the top on the Lumpini park side; hwoever no one is selling those, just the ones on the 185 side!!

There is a rumour that there is another development in Langsuan coming up just around the corner looking onto the park which will be an interesting one as it is freehold, not leasehold. I doubt you will see much in this area freehold below 200,000b again though.

there must be a lot of $million dollar buyers around , because at those prices anything of decent size will at least set you back Usd$ million plus , i know great view and skytrain ,but very bad traffic in that area , and again to pay that sought of money for leasehold just does not stack up in my books ,

[Jimjim]

Owning would be better than leasehold, right? But who knows how good the condo will be in 30 years? It could be crap. I've lived in a 40-year old condo building in Bangkok and it was crap (I know officially there were no condos according to classification in 80s or something but this place claimed to the first condo-style in Bangkok where you could buy the unit).

[dave111223]

Let say you bought a 100sqm condo on 30 year leasehold for 100,000 baht/sqm

Total: 10,000,000 baht

(or 27,777 rent per month over 30s)

How much would the monthly rent for the same place be (assuming you just rented it instead of buying it)?

[trajan]

185 is the only freehold development about to be built, the Sansiri project right next door is already built. The Sansiri project now fetches in the realm of 200,000b+ per sqm, and 185 is likely (total guess here) to be launched later 2008 to invitation only at pre launch prices starting around minimum 250,000b per sqm and probably higher, ranging up to the highest prices seen in Thailand to date, probably around 400,000b per sqm for the highest price.

my guess is 185 Rajadamri will start around B300,000 p.sq.m. (Sukhothai on Sathorn averaged about B220,000 psm and foreign quota (freeholds) sold out VERY quickly (and secondary sales hovering around B280,000 psm)..... they have 30% of the total building units left...but all in Thai quota) foreigners now wanting to buy any of the remaining units can buy a leasehold (or through a Thai holdco if your inclined)

Hansar sold I think from around 100-150,000b per sqm but it is no longer possible to build for those sorts of prices at any decent quality, so my guess is any other lease properties will sell starting around 120,000b absolute minimum in future; and that is for A quality, for A+ quality try 150,000+.

I believe that Hansar will have a Alila hotel-managed rent-out plan for private condos owners to participate in.... (similar to the Banyan Tree on Sathorn where you can buy (on installments) a 2 bedr leasehold condo unit and have Banyan Tree manage (furnish and decorate in the Banyan Tree style) it for you....and you share in the net proceeds (from revenue generated from paying hotel guests with respect to your unit).... (you can also stay in your unit a max of 60 days per year upon reservation---the rest of the days are meant for paying guests to generate profits for you and for Banyan Tree)

so I guess some people will buy Hansar leasehold condos for hotel-condo investment purposes (and also occassional stays when in Bangkok ).. without the hassle of managing/maintaining it..... that would be a great plan if the hotel and condo units have a consistent high % of paying hotel guests....

St Regis will be leasehold and will sell for a minimum (guess here) of about 180,000b per sqm absolute minimum and more likely 200-220,000b minimum, although the top units may not be quite as high as 185 or SukhoThai (which is now also 120 year leasehold for foreigners and until recently was still selling).

not that high....they are now selling the smallest 4 bedroom unit (345 sq.m) at B50million (so about B145,000 psm)..... (but no hotel-managed rent out scheme)... (and no installment payment plan)....

There is a rumour that there is another development in Langsuan coming up just around the corner looking onto the park which will be an interesting one as it is freehold, not leasehold. I doubt you will see much in this area freehold below 200,000b again though.

are you talking about the hi-rise condo building coming up on Lang Suan next to the Marriott Mayfair? (previously slated to be yet another Centerpoint?) that building is suspended......maybe construction cost probs? KTECH? any news?

(are you sure its freehold? could be because Langsuanville next to it is freehold, but not sure)

[quiksilva]

actually, the 30 year lease means that after 30 years, the condo association has to renegotiate with the Crown Property Bureau (owners of the land) to renegotiate the lease. Which could involve either an additional payment to the CPB (which might be some proportion of buying the land outright) or could end up with everyone giving the building back.

I am not personally aware of how such a situation has unfolded before in Thailand having simply never actually encountered it, but not doubt what happens is that with multiple owners of the condo, they agree to new terms (or not) and the ones who don't want to agree then must sell out presumably to allow someone else to take over the lease liability....

185 is the only freehold development about to be built, the Sansiri project right next door is already built. The Sansiri project now fetches in the realm of 200,000b+ per sqm, and 185 is likely (total guess here) to be launched later 2008 to invitation only at pre launch prices starting around minimum 250,000b per sqm and probably higher, ranging up to the highest prices seen in Thailand to date, probably around 400,000b per sqm for the highest price.

Hansar sold I think from around 100-150,000b per sqm but it is no longer possible to build for those sorts of prices at any decent quality, so my guess is any other lease properties will sell starting around 120,000b absolute minimum in future; and that is for A quality, for A+ quality try 150,000+.

St Regis will be leasehold and will sell for a minimum (guess here) of about 180,000b per sqm absolute minimum and more likely 200-220,000b minimum, although the top units may not be quite as high as 185 or SukhoThai (which is now also 120 year leasehold for foreigners and until recently was still selling).

Of all these projects, St Regis will for sure be the highest end of the leaseholds, 185 will be probably as high quality but also freehold as a bonus; of the rest Hansar is the best; Baan Ratchaprasong is pretty average from what I've seen of it, but it is also a little lower priced as well.

There are a few more interesting projects coming onto the market; personally the reason I didn't like the Sansiri project was the noise of the skytrain every 3 minutes as it has a bit of a skreech and the glazing is not the same quality (the entire project actually) is not the same quality as somewhere like the Park. But oh my what a view from the units at the top on the Lumpini park side; hwoever no one is selling those, just the ones on the 185 side!!

There is a rumour that there is another development in Langsuan coming up just around the corner looking onto the park which will be an interesting one as it is freehold, not leasehold. I doubt you will see much in this area freehold below 200,000b again though.

Steve has some good info here, very up to date!

Not much to add to that except to the lease renewal of long leases (20-30 years). The amount paid of rent paid at the outset is for the initial term only. At expiry the value of a new 30 year lease on that property should be calculated and will be payable for a new term. That amount may be higher or lower than the original figure, dependent of the type, condition, market and/or financial performance of the subject property.

This is based on our experience with the two highest profile lease renewals in the market recently, namely Chulaongkorn University (MahBoonKrong) and the SRT (the car park at Central Ladprao). I cant go into further details though.

[pkrv]

Owning would be better than leasehold, right? But who knows how good the condo will be in 30 years? It could be crap. I've lived in a 40-year old condo building in Bangkok and it was crap (I know officially there were no condos according to classification in 80s or something but this place claimed to the first condo-style in Bangkok where you could buy the unit).

Freehold yes - IMO Leasehold no - With Freehold at some point (god knows what point) IF it is commercially more profitable to tear down the property and rebuild you get the proceeds of your share of the FREEHOLD of the land. If you are still alive that is , if not perhaps this is an inheritance?

I forget the expression used in some book but grasped the concept:

If you want to eat today go to the supermarket

If you wish to ensure you can eat tomorrow plant crops

If you want more - cultivate people.

Basically Leasehold is there for multi-generational interests that’s it.

[MojoJojo]

Let say you bought a 100sqm condo on 30 year leasehold for 100,000 baht/sqm

Total: 10,000,000 baht

(or 27,777 rent per month over 30s)

How much would the monthly rent for the same place be (assuming you just rented it instead of buying it)?

I heard that the rental rate in this area ranges from 600-800 psm depending on how old the building is. So a new property may rent up to 80,000 baht for 100sq.m unit; which is possible as some not so nice condos in the inner street of Sukhumvit commands about the same price for the same size units.

I know someone who has a small unit in The Grand Condo (10 year old building in Rajdamri Road) who told me he has been renting it out and was getting 10% return a year; and recently sold his unit for the remainder of the leasehold term (20 years left) for the same amount he bought the unit for. So money doubled in 10 years. Not bad.

I agree with most people here that freehold is better than leasehold, assuming everything is comparably equal. But if leasehold is significantly cheaper than freehold on the onset, then leasehold may be a better option in the long-run, dont you think?

For instance, if it is true that the freehold properties like 185 Rajdamri are priced at 250,000 per sq.m.; and St. Regis is now selling at 145,000 per sq.m. Then if you buy 100sq.m. unit of St. Regis now instead of 185 Rajdamri, you will save 10.5 million baht. If this 10.5M is invested in a safe vehicle that earns say 6% interest a year, then the 10.5 million can grow up to 60.3 million in 30 years. So for as long as the renewal fee at the 100sq.m unit of St. Regis is less than 60.3M, arent you better off buying the leasehold?

What do you think?

[pkrv]

Let say you bought a 100sqm condo on 30 year leasehold for 100,000 baht/sqm

Total: 10,000,000 baht

(or 27,777 rent per month over 30s)

How much would the monthly rent for the same place be (assuming you just rented it instead of buying it)?

I heard that the rental rate in this area ranges from 600-800 psm depending on how old the building is. So a new property may rent up to 80,000 baht for 100sq.m unit; which is possible as some not so nice condos in the inner street of Sukhumvit commands about the same price for the same size units.

I know someone who has a small unit in The Grand Condo (10 year old building in Rajdamri Road) who told me he has been renting it out and was getting 10% return a year; and recently sold his unit for the remainder of the leasehold term (20 years left) for the same amount he bought the unit for. So money doubled in 10 years. Not bad.

I agree with most people here that freehold is better than leasehold, assuming everything is comparably equal. But if leasehold is significantly cheaper than freehold on the onset, then leasehold may be a better option in the long-run, dont you think?

For instance, if it is true that the freehold properties like 185 Rajdamri are priced at 250,000 per sq.m.; and St. Regis is now selling at 145,000 per sq.m. Then if you buy 100sq.m. unit of St. Regis now instead of 185 Rajdamri, you will save 10.5 million baht. If this 10.5M is invested in a safe vehicle that earns say 6% interest a year, then the 10.5 million can grow up to 60.3 million in 30 years. So for as long as the renewal fee at the 100sq.m unit of St. Regis is less than 60.3M, arent you better off buying the leasehold?

What do you think?

You are talking about a numbers game, and this is fine for business - there was a great post on the mechanics of this from quiksilva try to track it down.

Let us put in a nut shell - The Freehold is always owned by someone (watch who they are). Do you think lease hold is done for charitable purposes? For me handing on something after my death is part of what I am. ONLY Freehold will do that (in most cases), and I will not be concerned if it turns out I live to be 312. (though actually I am immortal )

[steveromagnino]

For instance, if it is true that the freehold properties like 185 Rajdamri are priced at 250,000 per sq.m.; and St. Regis is now selling at 145,000 per sq.m. Then if you buy 100sq.m. unit of St. Regis now instead of 185 Rajdamri, you will save 10.5 million baht. If this 10.5M is invested in a safe vehicle that earns say 6% interest a year, then the 10.5 million can grow up to 60.3 million in 30 years. So for as long as the renewal fee at the 100sq.m unit of St. Regis is less than 60.3M, arent you better off buying the leasehold?

What do you think?

First up, thanks to Trajan for the St Regis sale price; although I wasn't even aware that it was up for sale as yet; any info on this Trajan? 145k seems very very low, I am quite surprised it would be quite this low unless these are insider/VIP sales pre launch to lock in 20% sold.

Leasehold has one advantage that it doesn't affect foreigners as there is no 49% cap, so the developer can sell happily 100% to foreigners...which is why I think you may see some structured deals in future with 99 year leases to match Singapore (can be done via few legal frameworks) or similar so that the foreign quota issue does not kick in; let's bear in mind that people would rather own themselves rather than set up fake companies or similar to do the same thing.

Regarding the above calculation, this is based solely on yield; the issue of capital appreciation could be somewhat different.

With regards to Langsuan, the rumour is regarding one of the freehold sites at the Lumpini Park end although not right at the end. I know the site well enough, definitely freehold. The one next to the Marriot that is stalled out is another one, if it is the one I have heard about then I have heard will launch within this year but who knows???!

As for lease renewals, I am familiar with CPB to deal with for renewals where there is a single leasee; however I don't know how it will work when it is a condominium with multiple owners.

[pkrv]

Leasehold has one advantage that it doesn't affect foreigners as there is no 49% cap, so the developer can sell happily 100% to foreigners...which is why I think you may see some structured deals in future with 99 year leases to match Singapore (can be done via few legal frameworks) or similar so that the foreign quota issue does not kick in; let's bear in mind that people would rather own themselves rather than set up fake companies or similar to do the same thing.

That is something I did not know, and a new twist to the condominium, conundrum.

[steveromagnino]

Leasehold has one advantage that it doesn't affect foreigners as there is no 49% cap, so the developer can sell happily 100% to foreigners...which is why I think you may see some structured deals in future with 99 year leases to match Singapore (can be done via few legal frameworks) or similar so that the foreign quota issue does not kick in; let's bear in mind that people would rather own themselves rather than set up fake companies or similar to do the same thing.

That is something I did not know, and a new twist to the condominium, conundrum.

Yep, I can think of at least 1 property in BKK that is planning to structure the land ownership as leasehold and then start selling from there. Actually, no I can think of 2. i.e. lease inbuilt into the sale of the land to the developer with subsequent lease to the purchaser.

There are already several in phuket I believe that have done the same thing.

You are sitting on a sweet freehold...but I think within the next 5 years things will go the way of Singapore where there is no premium over a 99 year lease.

[pkrv]

Leasehold has one advantage that it doesn't affect foreigners as there is no 49% cap, so the developer can sell happily 100% to foreigners...which is why I think you may see some structured deals in future with 99 year leases to match Singapore (can be done via few legal frameworks) or similar so that the foreign quota issue does not kick in; let's bear in mind that people would rather own themselves rather than set up fake companies or similar to do the same thing.

That is something I did not know, and a new twist to the condominium, conundrum.

Yep, I can think of at least 1 property in BKK that is planning to structure the land ownership as leasehold and then start selling from there. Actually, no I can think of 2. i.e. lease inbuilt into the sale of the land to the developer with subsequent lease to the purchaser.

There are already several in phuket I believe that have done the same thing.

You are sitting on a sweet freehold...but I think within the next 5 years things will go the way of Singapore where there is no premium over a 99 year lease.

I think from a purely personal perspective that buying off the plan in Bangkok for the first time was risk enough for me (I note, you note where I have bought). Whilst I would say Whoooo Freehold Farang (I think I got the spelling right) properties would go through the roof, I would not have bought in the first place if leasehold was the only option. It would from a purely personal perspective been erased from my radar. Thailand IMO needs an edge - Freehold IMO is it, without it, it may not even be considered. IMO for the moment anyway, times will of course change.

Perhaps I could add a story - The City of London was once upon a time really based around St Pauls Cathedral but no one could build higher than this structure for religious reasons and the land around was owned by how shall we say this 'vested interests'. As a result The City has now moved to Docklands an interesting manoeuvre, people these days simply adapt.

Edited June 27, 2008 by pkrv

[trajan]

First up, thanks to Trajan for the St Regis sale price; although I wasn't even aware that it was up for sale as yet; any info on this Trajan? 145k seems very very low, I am quite surprised it would be quite this low unless these are insider/VIP sales pre launch to lock in 20% sold.

Im not an insider....just contact local company Minor International (specifically, the sales managers assigned to the St. Regis).....it might be pre-sales prices, but ones available to non-insiders.... however, the units are too big for me personally (all 4 bedroom units (45 units--so a rather limited number) & of course, 8 very large penthouses at the top floors)....... the indicated price for the smallest 4 bedroom unit (345 sqm) is B50million...(B145K psqm) for 30 yr leasehold (2010-2040 AD)....

Leasehold has one advantage that it doesn't affect foreigners as there is no 49% cap, so the developer can sell happily 100% to foreigners...which is why I think you may see some structured deals in future with 99 year leases to match Singapore (can be done via few legal frameworks) or similar so that the foreign quota issue does not kick in; let's bear in mind that people would rather own themselves rather than set up fake companies or similar to do the same thing.

I understand that the maximum registrable lease is 30yrs.... 50 yrs in some rarer cases (such as in the SkyVillas/Ascott on South Sathorn)

some recurring rumors about possible moves to increase this period in the law,,,but nothing concrete so far......

currently a claim of 99 yrs lease in Thailand is a bit of smoke and mirrors (these are mere contractual covenants to honor options to renew at the end of the initial registered 30 years....not registered perfected rights (that is limited to 30 yrs))....

With regards to Langsuan, the rumour is regarding one of the freehold sites at the Lumpini Park end although not right at the end. I know the site well enough, definitely freehold. The one next to the Marriot that is stalled out is another one, if it is the one I have heard about then I have heard will launch within this year but who knows???!

oh..... is that the perpetually empty lots next to MaBeYa Italian Restaurant? that might be an interesting location if there are views over the park....

As for lease renewals, I am familiar with CPB to deal with for renewals where there is a single leasee; however I don't know how it will work when it is a condominium with multiple owners.

the CPB or RPP would always deal with a single master lessee (in condo building scenarios) .....the multiple individual condo owners would technically just be sub-lessees of the master lessee (with no connection to the CPB or RPP)

[Tyke]

The Rajadamri Road, particularly in Soi Mahardlekluang is bustling with new off-plan developments. There are at least 4 new projects being built (Baan Rajphrasong, The Rajdamri, Hansar Rajdamri, and St. Regis Residences).

I think their proximity to BTS, 5-star hotels, good hospitals and schools, and Lumpini Park is a good appeal for these projects. I also like that the area is generally quiet and not too crowded compared to other near BTS projects. The only big concern is that these projects are all leasehold condominiums (30 years lease) because the land is owned by The Royal Highness Treasury/ Privy Purse.

But I heard these projects are priced lower than equally good buildings, I guess because the land is only leased (price per sq.m. is 80,000 to 100,000 baht?).

Does anybody here bought a unit in any of the above projects? Do you think it is worth it even if it is leasehold?

Would appreciate feedback from those who are familiar with the projects. Thanks.

I rented a condo immediately behind the 4 seasons hotel for 2 years. Yes it is a good area, but couldn't stand the all=night noise from new condos being built. It take 3+ years for each block to be built then they start on another - at one point they were building on 3 sides and it was a nightmare. You should consider this when you buy - also be careful that you pick a block where they wion't build another immediately outside your window and block the view - look what they are doing immediately next to the Rajadamri BTS - one block with a magnificent view of the race track is being completely blocked out now and they were in a rush to sell just before the new building was started.

I understand that renewal of a 30-year lease 2 times is normal and expected after paying a fee each time (I understand a million baht or so depending on the value of the condo). And yes, even the second hand condos are considerably cheaper than freehold because of that.

[trajan]

I rented a condo immediately behind the 4 seasons hotel for 2 years. Yes it is a good area, but couldn't stand the all=night noise from new condos being built. It take 3+ years for each block to be built then they start on another - at one point they were building on 3 sides and it was a nightmare. You should consider this when you buy - also be careful that you pick a block where they wion't build another immediately outside your window and block the view - look what they are doing immediately next to the Rajadamri BTS - one block with a magnificent view of the race track is being completely blocked out now and they were in a rush to sell just before the new building was started.

I understand that renewal of a 30-year lease 2 times is normal and expected after paying a fee each time (I understand a million baht or so depending on the value of the condo). And yes, even the second hand condos are considerably cheaper than freehold because of that.

Yeah, I think you are talking about the Royal Regent (or something like that in name).... the construction noise would be a nightmare...

yes, but remember....buyers of the 185 Rajadamri and the St. Regis etc. (both fronting on the Royal Sports club--so view assured) are probably looking at the slightly longer term...not the current construction boom period (which renters are suffering through)........ the Courtyard Marriott behind the Royal Regent is finished....the huge Grand Centerpoint to the side of the Four Seasons is finished.....the Renaissance Hotel Maneeya will be finished this yr or next....the St Regis will be finished around 2010....and the Hansar, Baan Rajaprasong, etc. will all finish in that time period also.....

the 185 Rajadamri (on the old Cambodian Embassy grounds) will probably start construction soon (this yr?)....(and maybe, just maybe in the nearer future, the Ritz-Carlton Rajadamri (or another brand taking its place) will start up again next to the Grand Hyatt Erawan...that plots been dormant for a long time).....

after the construction dust settles, that area will be part of the "Golden Zone" or very best real estate zone in Bangkok in my opinion .....[very roughly bordered by Rama IV to the south, Rajadamri to the West, Ruam Rudee (or the highway) to the East, and the Saen Saap Canal to the North PLUS the Sathorn/Silom zone]......

[Richard0123]

The Rajadamri Road, particularly in Soi Mahardlekluang is bustling with new off-plan developments. There are at least 4 new projects being built (Baan Rajphrasong, The Rajdamri, Hansar Rajdamri, and St. Regis Residences).

I think their proximity to BTS, 5-star hotels, good hospitals and schools, and Lumpini Park is a good appeal for these projects. I also like that the area is generally quiet and not too crowded compared to other near BTS projects. The only big concern is that these projects are all leasehold condominiums (30 years lease) because the land is owned by The Royal Highness Treasury/ Privy Purse.

But I heard these projects are priced lower than equally good buildings, I guess because the land is only leased (price per sq.m. is 80,000 to 100,000 baht?).

Does anybody here bought a unit in any of the above projects? Do you think it is worth it even if it is leasehold?

Would appreciate feedback from those who are familiar with the projects. Thanks.

I rented a condo immediately behind the 4 seasons hotel for 2 years. Yes it is a good area, but couldn't stand the all=night noise from new condos being built. It take 3+ years for each block to be built then they start on another - at one point they were building on 3 sides and it was a nightmare. You should consider this when you buy - also be careful that you pick a block where they wion't build another immediately outside your window and block the view - look what they are doing immediately next to the Rajadamri BTS - one block with a magnificent view of the race track is being completely blocked out now and they were in a rush to sell just before the new building was started.

I understand that renewal of a 30-year lease 2 times is normal and expected after paying a fee each time (I understand a million baht or so depending on the value of the condo). And yes, even the second hand condos are considerably cheaper than freehold because of that.

I am thinking of buying a 105condo(2 bed rooms unit) near the four seasons hotel with 13yrs left to complete 30 yrs leasehold, with low price.

The risk is what will happen after 13 years. Do I lose this condo, or can I keep it by paying say 1 million bahts?

I heard about URBAN near panpan at langsuan. They renewed the old building and sold to new tenants. All old tenants desappeard.

I don't know other cases, but if this happens always, we should not call it "taking risk". We should rather say buy condo with right of use for only 13 yrs.

Anyone knows about successful renewal case of 30 yr on condos with additional payment- how much in that case?

[steveromagnino]

the 185 Rajadamri (on the old Cambodian Embassy grounds) will probably start construction soon (this yr?)....(and maybe, just maybe in the nearer future, the Ritz-Carlton Rajadamri (or another brand taking its place) will start up again next to the Grand Hyatt Erawan...that plots been dormant for a long time).....

That plot will be the Rennaissance AFAIK, Ritz Carlton got cold feet years ago, and now currently plan to go to the British Embassy site above the new Central retail complex there (between wave place and Central Chitlom plot).

The developer is Maneeya; they own all the way through in an L shape from where you say right to the I-Berry/Burger King/parking lot near the Maneeya centre; AFAIK the hotel is actually going to be in the back corner of the plot, the bit fronting Ratchamri will be 2 office towers.

185 is expected to launch this year, everyone is waiting to see what it sells for; my guess is pretty high! AFAIK no plan to have a hotel, the site doesn't look big enough to do a hotel just looking at it.....

It will become somewhat of a golden zone, but the low grade cruddy leasehold developments behind Four Seasons don't help the ambiance of the area too much; I reckon in 13-20 years a lot of these will get torn down or majorly improved; the big square one with no terraces and the big atrium and the big pool in the middle is simply a foul eyesore!

As for 13 years left, it is a risk that the option won't be open to renew, or maybe it will be more or less than 1m; all depends on the connections of the building to the CPB; if there are some influential important Thais you might get a sweetheart deal, if not you might pay top dollar; risk vs. return; I'd be basing my offer on the assumption of handing the thing back and anything above that is a bonus.

Edited June 30, 2008 by steveromagnino

[glyph]

"185 is expected to launch this year, everyone is waiting to see what it sells for; my guess is pretty high! AFAIK no plan to have a hotel"

Currently, the old Cambodian embassy is there, and Raimonland plans to build freehold condos there. Although the project is "expected to launch this year", exactly when do you think you'll be moving in? Since neither a single blade of grass has been touched, nor a single teaspoon of dirt has been dug, I wouldn't expect you to call it "home sweet home" before July, 2012.

[trajan]

the 185 Rajadamri (on the old Cambodian Embassy grounds) will probably start construction soon (this yr?)....(and maybe, just maybe in the nearer future, the Ritz-Carlton Rajadamri (or another brand taking its place) will start up again next to the Grand Hyatt Erawan...that plots been dormant for a long time).....

That plot will be the Rennaissance AFAIK, Ritz Carlton got cold feet years ago, and now currently plan to go to the British Embassy site above the new Central retail complex there (between wave place and Central Chitlom plot).

The developer is Maneeya; they own all the way through in an L shape from where you say right to the I-Berry/Burger King/parking lot near the Maneeya centre; AFAIK the hotel is actually going to be in the back corner of the plot, the bit fronting Ratchamri will be 2 office towers.

Actually, that narrow plot fronting Rajadamri Road, sandwiched in-between the Grand Hyatt Erawan and the Peninsula mini-shopping mall is abandoned at the moment...previously slated to be the Ritz-Carlton Rajadamri, but underlying developer(master leaseholder) ran into financial problems....Ritz-Carlton didnt get "cold feet"....

The other unrelated (but adjacent) plot behind the Maneeya building on Ploenchit Road already has a building under construction on it--35 floors or so (already topped-off) and blue glass being applied.... that will be a Renaissance Hotel (same family as Marriott), residences, etc. (access through the ex-IBerry/ex-Burger King/parking lot zone)...

might even open by this Christmas?

I heard that the new Ritz-Carlton will not be at the ex-British embassy plot, but at the planned "Wireless Commons" plot which is kitty-corner to the ex-British Embassy plot.... there is a nice rendering of the planned building at skyscrapercity.com...... you will notice that the old ugly shop-houses on that corner are being gutted-out in prep for demolition.....

185 is expected to launch this year, everyone is waiting to see what it sells for; my guess is pretty high! AFAIK no plan to have a hotel, the site doesn't look big enough to do a hotel just looking at it.....

its 4 rai....maybe enough for a hi-rise hotel (and private residences on top)....I just read that the boss of Raimonland believes that "branded residences" are more attractive and yield higher premium prices...so I wouldnt be surprised at all if a hotel is planned to be imbedded at 185 Rajadamri....

[steveromagnino]

The other unrelated (but adjacent) plot behind the Maneeya building on Ploenchit Road already has a building under construction on it--35 floors or so (already topped-off) and blue glass being applied.... that will be a Renaissance Hotel (same family as Marriott), residences, etc. (access through the ex-IBerry/ex-Burger King/parking lot zone)...

might even open by this Christmas?

I heard that the new Ritz-Carlton will not be at the ex-British embassy plot, but at the planned "Wireless Commons" plot which is kitty-corner to the ex-British Embassy plot.... there is a nice rendering of the planned building at skyscrapercity.com...... you will notice that the old ugly shop-houses on that corner are being gutted-out in prep for demolition.....

....I just read that the boss of Raimonland believes that "branded residences" are more attractive and yield higher premium prices...so I wouldnt be surprised at all if a hotel is planned to be imbedded at 185 Rajadamri....

The plot on the opposite corner is a consortium headed up by Charoen and with minor shareholdings from a variety of partners including LPN I think; 30 year lease; AFAIK there is no talk of that; Ritz Carlton do have, according to rumours, an agreement with Central and that is still proceeding to plan.

Yes, having seen the write up today, clearly Raimon Land are going to do a branded residence somewhere; could be the back part of the River site or more likely 185; what brand?? (Raffles possibly) and how to fit it onto the site (4 rai is a bit big for a small scale development, cannot see how to fit a hotel AND residences there) are the issues - maybe it will be branded residences without the hotel as per Ritz Carlton in Singapore??!

[trajan]

Yes, having seen the write up today, clearly Raimon Land are going to do a branded residence somewhere; could be the back part of the River site or more likely 185; what brand?? (Raffles possibly) and how to fit it onto the site (4 rai is a bit big for a small scale development, cannot see how to fit a hotel AND residences there) are the issues - maybe it will be branded residences without the hotel as per Ritz Carlton in Singapore??!

(a) well I do hope R-C comes in (either at the exBritish Embassy plot or the kitty corner "Wireless Commons" plot (according to the Bangkok Post, 30 yr leasehold held by Lertrattakarn Co, a sub of Univentures (in turn held by Sirivadhanabhakdi family) (LPN has nothing to do with that...they are investors in a different sub of Univentures (called Grand Unity) for other projects... rumors at skyscrapercity are that this is what the R-C will look like at Wireless Commons

( b ) why couldnt 185 Rajadamri have a luxx hotel and branded private residences in the same building on 4 rai? (similar to St. Regis, which has LEVELS 1-11 =main lobby, retail/offices/car park; LEVELS 12-21= sky lobby, spa,fitness,ballrooms, hotel rooms; LEVELS 22-23=serviced apts; LEVELS 24-45=privates residences)

what luxx/1st class brands are left? Crowne Plaza? Park Hyatt? Movenpick? Waldorf-Astoria collection? Regent? (since the one on Sukhumvit seems to have died) Raffles? Edition? (in the Marriott group--sort of like "W") ............ anyway..hope its something good with great management.... (and possibly a rent-out plan?)....with a can-do price... saving all my satang coins now

[glyph]

"my guess is 185 Rajadamri will start around B300,000 p.sq.m."

In today's newspaper, it mentioned that the developer was going for 150K/sqm, and is now considering 300K/sqm.

[steveromagnino]

"my guess is 185 Rajadamri will start around B300,000 p.sq.m."

In today's newspaper, it mentioned that the developer was going for 150K/sqm, and is now considering 300K/sqm.

yep. 300k.

As for branded residences

Raffles have never done one before. Possible though I suppose.

Park Hyatt not able to come to BKK as Grand Hyatt has a lock on all Hyatt brands (no Regency, no park, etc)

Regent is not high end enough for this sort of site IMHO, only a 4/5 star really, and in litigation as I understand (but could be totally wrong) regarding the development in Sukhumvit which is a mess

Crowne, Movenpick, Edition - all possible and interesting. Movenpick probably the lowest end of the ones you've suggested other than Regent, but has some good reputation.

The site at 185 what I had heard is that the L shape makes a hotel + residence all on one plot problematic; I think doable, but just possibly not that easy to fit it all in; again, don't work for Raimon Land so not sure what they have planned. 300k without a hotel would be saleable, but the hotel makes it easier.

The RC is a bit of an ugly sod if it is going to look like that! yuck! Still...one way to deal with setback and GFA I guess.... knowing the rumour that Future System have been working on the British Embassy site with Ritz in mind, I'd be surprised if RC opens anywhere else though.