Drinking Water

[Dustoff]

Folks, do you know that an estimated 1.1 billion people in the world don't have access to clean drinking water???

Yeah.. A bit off-topic but this is something I have been raging about for some three decades - that in spite of all the news about wars (god bless America), the theoretical global warming, the few terrorist nitwits, food shortages, fuel prices, economic trends, et al., some 4000+ children die every day from the simple lack of clean drinking water - most from diarrhea, if you can imagine such a death and the effect on the families who are dealing with it..

Clean water.. the lack of it is the coming plague and, even more than bacteriological infestations and viruses that can survive in pure alcohol and the depths of space (google hospital-induced infections), finding ways to effectively clean up something as simple as our drinking water, and how to stop screwing it up, is going to become the challenge of this century.

Admittedly, This Is Thailand, and not to knock it but cheap seems to be the way to go, eh?

Water companies are likely dirt-pits and that blue UV light in the water dispenser could easily be - a blue bulb.

An in-house RO or whatever is cool but it may be a good idea to purchase an import but even then, what with all the essential minerals being removed, check into getting your minerals elsewhere since natural water is our primary source.

Yeah, I know, eat 2.3 Kg of meat/greens/fruits every day to compensate but in any country where poor crop management leads to soil depetion and food animals eat el-cheapo food and minerally deficient plants, you gotta be nuts to not be supplimenting.

Ever wonder why the indiginous peoples of 3rd-world and developing nations have that blank stare...?

Vitamin and mineral deficiences in childhood, and continuing throughout our lives, have a devastating effect...

[tipsy]

Folks, do you know that an estimated 1.1 billion people in the world don't have access to clean drinking water???

Yeah.. A bit off-topic but this is something I have been raging about for some three decades - that in spite of all the news about wars (god bless America), the theoretical global warming, the few terrorist nitwits, food shortages, fuel prices, economic trends, et al., some 4000+ children die every day from the simple lack of clean drinking water - most from diarrhea, if you can imagine such a death and the effect on the families who are dealing with it..

Clean water.. the lack of it is the coming plague and, even more than bacteriological infestations and viruses that can survive in pure alcohol and the depths of space (google hospital-induced infections), finding ways to effectively clean up something as simple as our drinking water, and how to stop screwing it up, is going to become the challenge of this century.

Admittedly, This Is Thailand, and not to knock it but cheap seems to be the way to go, eh?

Water companies are likely dirt-pits and that blue UV light in the water dispenser could easily be - a blue bulb.

An in-house RO or whatever is cool but it may be a good idea to purchase an import but even then, what with all the essential minerals being removed, check into getting your minerals elsewhere since natural water is our primary source.

Yeah, I know, eat 2.3 Kg of meat/greens/fruits every day to compensate but in any country where poor crop management leads to soil depetion and food animals eat el-cheapo food and minerally deficient plants, you gotta be nuts to not be supplimenting.

Ever wonder why the indiginous peoples of 3rd-world and developing nations have that blank stare...?

Vitamin and mineral deficiences in childhood, and continuing throughout our lives, have a devastating effect...

Very wise words. I have taken myself complete vitamin and mineral supplement tablets since arriving here 8 years ago, since i met my wife she has also.

The water I use for cooking and boiling is always store bought Minere, I believe about 40b per 5 litre and the drinking water used is Evian. I know this way costs me more but I'm happy spending more to avoid potential health risks from water.

[nokia]

Folks,

i made a mistake. It's 26-35 baht for the 5/6L bottled water, while the price has gone up to @45-50 baht for the more convenient 6 pack of 1.5L. I have noticed recently that less & less Thai people are buying the 6 pack of 1.5L from Tesco.I guessed Crude oil is driving up the price of PET bottles.

Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET, PETE or polyester) is commonly used for carbonated beverage and water bottles. PET provides very good alcohol and essential oil barrier properties, generally good chemical resistance (although acetones and ketones will attack PET) and a high degree of impact resistance and tensile strength. The orienting process serves to improve gas and moisture barrier properties and impact strength. This material does not provide resistance to high temperature applications -- max. temp. 160°F/71'C.

[Rasseru]

Thanks to all for the helpful information posted here.

My original post was prompted by the fact that we are in the middle of a full renovation of our apartment, now at the point of deciding on the kitchen.

I am leaning towards setting things up initially so that we can keep in the storeroom immediately behind the kitchen one of those large plastic containers for water (20 liters, I think, based on some of the posts here), connected by a hose and pipe through the wall to a tap in the kitchen. The container would be kept at a raised level, so that gravity alone would bring the water to the tap. (I will keep open the option to switch to an RO filter system later.)

One problem, though, remains unsolved: how to connect the water container to the water pipe that leads to the kitchen? Does anyone know if water-tight caps or lids of some kind are available for these containers, to which one can connect an ordinary hose with a threaded connector? Any other ideas would be welcome too.

[Steve2UK]

Thanks to all for the helpful information posted here.

My original post was prompted by the fact that we are in the middle of a full renovation of our apartment, now at the point of deciding on the kitchen.

I am leaning towards setting things up initially so that we can keep in the storeroom immediately behind the kitchen one of those large plastic containers for water (20 liters, I think, based on some of the posts here), connected by a hose and pipe through the wall to a tap in the kitchen. The container would be kept at a raised level, so that gravity alone would bring the water to the tap. (I will keep open the option to switch to an RO filter system later.)

One problem, though, remains unsolved: how to connect the water container to the water pipe that leads to the kitchen? Does anyone know if water-tight caps or lids of some kind are available for these containers, to which one can connect an ordinary hose with a threaded connector? Any other ideas would be welcome too.

I'm no expert [so I'm maybe missing something here], but if I picture correctly what you have in mind then the 20-litre bottle would be held upside-down in some kind of frame? A water-tight hose connection would also be air-tight - and the water that comes out has to be replaced with air.......... hence the bubbles that you see in those office-type water dispensers. So, I assume that the system has to be open to the air at some point - at least through a one-way air inlet valve.

To my mind, it all sounds like a bit of a business to do yourself - unless you can find something designed for the purpose. In your position, I think I'd be going directly for one of the filter systems - from posts above presumably RO is best?

BTW, if you do go with what you describe, would you have two taps - one for drinking water and another to supply "general" water for washing-up, cleaning etc?

P.S. - a full 20-litre bottle is not light to lift to chest height..............

Edited July 10, 2008 by Steve2UK

[Rasseru]

[if] I picture correctly what you have in mind then the 20-litre bottle would be held upside-down in some kind of frame? A water-tight hose connection would also be air-tight - and the water that comes out has to be replaced with air.......... hence the bubbles that you see in those office-type water dispensers. So, I assume that the system has to be open to the air at some point - at least through a one-way air inlet valve.

Yes, in answer to your question, and I think you are quite right about the consequence, which you describe well. A point I had not considered (embarrassment here), but will need to.

To my mind, it all sounds like a bit of a business to do yourself - unless you can find something designed for the purpose. In your position, I think I'd be going directly for one of the filter systems - from posts above presumably RO is best?

I expect I would have to design it and build it myself (or rather, arrange to have it built, working with my contractor). Such systems don't seem to exist on the market. Your observation above is pushing me more in the direction of an RO filter system.

BTW, if you do go with what you describe, would you have two taps - one for drinking water and another to supply "general" water for washing-up, cleaning etc?

Yes, precisely that.

P.S. - a full 20-litre bottle is not light to lift to chest height..............

Yes. I have tried it, to be sure that I can do it.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Rasseru

[Bill97]

You really do not want to go any further with this. Talk to your highly touted contractor if you still have doubts. If he does not promptly tell you the same thing that Steve2UK said (buy a filter) then be very careful.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Bill97

[nokia]

Thanks to all for the helpful information posted here.

My original post was prompted by the fact that we are in the middle of a full renovation of our apartment, now at the point of deciding on the kitchen.

I am leaning towards setting things up initially so that we can keep in the storeroom immediately behind the kitchen one of those large plastic containers for water (20 liters, I think, based on some of the posts here), connected by a hose and pipe through the wall to a tap in the kitchen. The container would be kept at a raised level, so that gravity alone would bring the water to the tap. (I will keep open the option to switch to an RO filter system later.)

One problem, though, remains unsolved: how to connect the water container to the water pipe that leads to the kitchen? Does anyone know if water-tight caps or lids of some kind are available for these containers, to which one can connect an ordinary hose with a threaded connector? Any other ideas would be welcome too.

Sounds interesting & little complicated. Why not get a 18L water dispensing machine with hot & cold water found in most offices? I think the supplier will also supply the refills. Just an idea.

Drink & enjoy!

[Rasseru]

Why not get a 18L water dispensing machine with hot & cold water found in most offices?

Because I would like to have in the kitchen only a tap for drinking water, not a large machine, and I have room in the store room for what I am considering.

Thanks, though, for the suggestion.

[Steve2UK]

Rasseru, I like to think of myself as being both generally ready-to-DIY and attracted to the "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" philosophy - but I really wouldn't take the route you have in mind. Water just has a habit of leaking when connections are fiddled with over time - even assuming you can set up the system to start with. That makes me think that you would need some kind of fixed reservoir bottle/tank that you would refill via another opening - from whichever bottles you buy. 1 x 20-litre bottle to fill it will be unwieldy and smaller sizes just get tedious. Either way, over time, I think you'd regret having gone that route. I'd also wonder how clean that reservoir water will stay over time - who knows what will get into it in your store-room? In the UK at least, kitchen drinking water generally comes direct from the municipal water main - i.e. a closed system - whereas other water (bath, shower etc) often comes from a holding tank filled from the same mains water - but we don't drink it.

I get the sense that you want a visually neat set-up that is as trouble-free as possible - literally "on tap". Some kind of effective filtering of a feed from your existing piped water supply achieves that.

[Rasseru]

Thanks for your additional thoughts, Steve2UK, which I take to heart and which push me further in the direction I am now leaning.

There is one issue concerning RO filter systems that troubles me, though, and perhaps you or someone can set my mind at ease about it. The small amount of research I did into these systems uncovered an assertion that they are wasteful, in the sense that they require ten liters of water in to produce one litter of purified water, with the rest being passed on as waste water.

One question is whether this is even true. Does anyone know?

Another is whether, even if true, it is meaningful. For example, if the process that produces the purified water that one buys in bottles large and small creates the same or even more 'waste' water per unit of purified water (assuming, of course, that the systems are being operated properly), then it hardly matters if one produces a corresponding amount at home with an RO filter system. Thoughts?

[Steve2UK]

As to the first part - mai pen rai krub .

As to the second part - I have no knowledge about that........ but, intuitively, it does seem unlikely. Over to the RO experts............

[Bill97]

Why not get a 18L water dispensing machine with hot & cold water found in most offices?

Because I would like to have in the kitchen only a tap for drinking water, not a large machine, and I have room in the store room for what I am considering.

Thanks, though, for the suggestion.

The suggestion is better than you think. Put the machine in the store room and , turn the tap on and connect it to the kitchen sink tap with some flex hose or pipe and you have everything you ask for except the headaches and problems. Filter is still better, imho because there remain problems with your alternative approach which you have yet to consider.

[Bill97]

There is one issue concerning RO filter systems that troubles me, though, and perhaps you or someone can set my mind at ease about it. The small amount of research I did into these systems uncovered an assertion that they are wasteful, in the sense that they require ten liters of water in to produce one litter of purified water, with the rest being passed on as waste water.

Your research is based on what? from where?

Set your mind at ease with some real facts you can find and see for yourself. Go do some practical research like going to Home Pro and looking at the filters for sale even if you can not talk with the sales people. If you need someone who speaks English, go to Lana. You will also be able to get the cost information and have a chance to see and price the "water dispensing machines".

There may be some filter like you describe with a lot of waste water but I have looked at many in Thailand and never seen one. The three I have bought and used here all had no wastewater during filtering operations but one did have a connection to the drain for backwash water. Also the ones in friends homes do not produce waste water except during cleaning.

Did you talk with your contractor yet?

AMF

[Rasseru]

There is one issue concerning RO filter systems that troubles me, though, and perhaps you or someone can set my mind at ease about it. The small amount of research I did into these systems uncovered an assertion that they are wasteful, in the sense that they require ten liters of water in to produce one liter of purified water, with the rest being passed on as waste water.

Your research is based on what? from where?

The Wikipedia entry for reverse osmosis, which contains the following section:

Disadvantages

Reverse osmosis units sold for residential purposes offer water filtration at the cost of large quantities of waste water [3].

That note [3] is a link to some kind of paper on what appears to be a North Dakota educational site, which itself contains the following:

Disadvantages of reverse osmosis units

RO units use a lot of water. They recover only 5 to 15 percent of the water entering the system. The remainder is discharged as waste water. Because waste water carries with it the rejected contaminants, methods to re-cover this water are not practical for household systems. Waste water is typically connected to the house drains and will add to the load on the household septic system. An RO unit delivering 5 gallons of treated water per day may discharge 40 to 90 gallons of waste water per day to the septic system.

[sceadugenga]

Out of curiosity how many people here have got sick from drinking the tap/mains water?

Those who clean their teeth with tap water or rinse their mouth out under the shower can include themselves in this survey.

[Bill97]

There is one issue concerning RO filter systems that troubles me, though, and perhaps you or someone can set my mind at ease about it. The small amount of research I did into these systems uncovered an assertion that they are wasteful, in the sense that they require ten liters of water in to produce one liter of purified water, with the rest being passed on as waste water.

Your research is based on what? from where?

The Wikipedia entry for reverse osmosis, which contains the following section:

Disadvantages

Reverse osmosis units sold for residential purposes offer water filtration at the cost of large quantities of waste water [3].

That note [3] is a link to some kind of paper on what appears to be a North Dakota educational site, which itself contains the following:

Disadvantages of reverse osmosis units

RO units use a lot of water. They recover only 5 to 15 percent of the water entering the system. The remainder is discharged as waste water. Because waste water carries with it the rejected contaminants, methods to re-cover this water are not practical for household systems. Waste water is typically connected to the house drains and will add to the load on the household septic system. An RO unit delivering 5 gallons of treated water per day may discharge 40 to 90 gallons of waste water per day to the septic system.

Look further and you will find that RO systems are available which do not produce those high levels of waste water.

[ZZZ]

I have a RO system in my kitchen and it produces a lot of waste water like all house hold systems do. This is not a problem as the tap water cost next to nothing but you need to have a drain where the system is located.

[Rasseru]

I have a RO system in my kitchen and it produces a lot of waste water like all house hold systems do. This is not a problem as the tap water cost next to nothing but you need to have a drain where the system is located.

Thank you, but it is not the cost that concerns me. Aesthetically (the best word I kind find for it), I simply, but strongly, dislike waste.

[Rasseru]

Look further and you will find that RO systems are available which do not produce those high levels of waste water.

If you could provide any links that would allow me to find such information, I would be grateful.

[ZZZ]

It takes about 5 liters of water to produce 1 liter of bottled water that you buy in the shop, plus fuel for transport and other waste.

If you don't want any waste you could go for a uv system, with particle/carbon/resin pre filters.

There are RO systems available with less waste but they are bigger commercial systems that re use some of the waste water. The way a RO system works you will always have a lot of waste.

[Steve2UK]

I have a RO system in my kitchen and it produces a lot of waste water like all house hold systems do. This is not a problem as the tap water cost next to nothing but you need to have a drain where the system is located.

Thank you, but it is not the cost that concerns me. Aesthetically (the best word I kind find for it), I simply, but strongly, dislike waste.

Rasseru, you asked the question about RO waste and I didn't know the answer. So, out of interest and for my future reference, I turned to Google and found numerous references to it. Typical was a Q&A in the FAQ of of the US-based plumbingsupply.com [who seem to sell just about everything that involves water and so, presumably, have no axe to grind]:

Q: "Does Reverse Osmosis use a lot of water?"

A: Basically the answer is yes with all brands. Some more than others. On our basic system, for every gallon of filtered water, approximately 4-10 gallons of water goes down the drain (depends on your water conditions).

and

Q: "Is it true that ROs waste a lot of water?"

A: ALL brands of ROs "waste" some water. With some systems it takes as much as 10 gallons of water to produce one gallon. Our systems are much better than that, but please understand, no matter what brand, there will be quite a bit of "waste" water that is used with an (all brands) RO system.

Like you, I'd be interested to find links to RO products that don't produce such high levels of waste. The best I found was http://www.advancedwaterfilters.com/html/f...php?question=70 - with an overview of "zero waste" and "permeate pump" systems:

The "Zero Waste" Reverse Osmosis System Process

"Zero Waste" reverse osmosis systems come in two basic types. The more advanced types of "zero waste" systems eliminate water waste by pumping the brine water into the hot water plumbing instead of down the drain. The drawback to this design is that the brine water injected into the hot water line can be discharged from your kitchen sink faucet on your hands, cooking, dishes, etc, and into your dishwasher. The less advanced types of "zero waste" systems will pump the brine water back into the cold water line that feeding the reverse osmosis unit. The downside to this design is that the additional concentrated brine water in the feed water will force the reverse osmosis system to work harder and wear down the system components faster resulting in more frequent filter changes and overall shorter system life than a comparably equipped standard reverse osmosis system. Both systems are effective at eliminating water waste but their downsides are significant.

The Permeate Pump: Alternative to Zero Waste?

While a permeate pump equipped reverse osmosis system will still waste water, it can reduce the amount of wastewater by up to 80%. Furthermore the permeate pump equipped reverse osmosis system disposes of the brine water rather than injecting it back into the system where it can end up on your dishes, cooking, or back in the filtration system reducing system life. The permeate pump brings additional benefits beyond reduced water waste such as faster water production and prolonged system life when compared with a similarly equipped "zero waste" system, because of the permeate pump's efficiency improvements.

[mcgriffith]

Rass, I think you should just go with the standard "office cooler" setup, and get the jugs delivered to your door.

The total footprint in your kitchen is approx. 1 foot square, and needs to be near an electrical outlet.

I had one in the US (bought at Costco) in my rather smallish condo kitchen in the US. Used unchilled water from the dispenser for cooking, chilled for drinking, filling ice cube trays. The wife might like a "hot" option for tea, ramen, etc.

Forgive me, but this idea of having pure filtered drinking water at the kitchen sink faucet seems doable, but a needless expense (and with a hidden yuck factor from the various fittings, filters, etc.).

Go green, get a "office cooler"....worried about carbon footprint? Don't plug it in....and fill the jugs yourself at a local street water dispensing machine. 50 satangs a liter- makes ice cubes that look hewn from rock crystal

[Steve2UK]

McG, now you've got me wondering about my bottled water - doesn't make those crystal-clear ice cubes like you describe!

What can I be doing wrong ?

[mcgriffith]

Well, Steve...you could try the water dispensed from the machine in front of the Tesco Lotus Express near Wat Chang Khian (soi off of north side of Huay Kaew Rd., just past Irrigation Canal Rd. intersection)!

[Mapguy]

Out of curiosity how many people here have got sick from drinking the tap/mains water?

Those who clean their teeth with tap water or rinse their mouth out under the shower can include themselves in this survey.

Never, as far as I can tell (See below) , for miscellaneous use (washing dishes, cleaning teeth, general cooking) in my abode on the Chiang Mai City water system. Use the large 20-litre bottles for straight drinking water, coffee, tea. Cheap!

People get the runs for a lot of reasons so you can't really track that problem down. But among those in my household, the only time we've been able to nail a source it has almost certainly been either commercial pizza or some other specific food. No one here suffers from miscellaneous diseases of the digestive system.

[mcgriffith]

I recommend the current Citylife magazine cover story on this issue, as mentioned above.

Very informative on this city-specific topic.

[CCCP]

I use a Berkey water filter system. Probably better than most products available here. Water tastes much better and is filtered much better to.

[cloudhopper]

An RO system for sea water, which is the typical use, will reject in excess of 95% of feed water as concentrated brine. If the feed water is essentially fresh already as is our filtered well water then it drops significantly, as do the power requirements. Regardless of the percentage rejected you will be in practice making less than 5-10 liters a day since it's only for drinking so the actual amount of water "wasted" will be insignificant.

Can't say I've ever been sick from the big bottled water, but have been grossed out a few times peering in after ripping off that reassuring plastic top. I just don't like the idea of drinking water containing all the birth control hormones and all the other drugs people flush down the toilet, be they actually harmless or otherwise...

[Dustoff]

I have been watching this very busy thread because I truly am interested in the various forms of both in-home filters and so-called clean water provided by outside services. The two issues I have so far are,

- Bottled water seems to be all the rage among people who can afford it and even in Hawaii it was very popular indeed and stories of contaminated tap water abounded. Just how true they are is another question. Have very many people on these forums actually taken a sample of their local tap water to the University for tests? And, if so, did those tests recommend not drinking that water? There are SO many contaminants out there, do we really have to worry that much about water that is already supposedly treated by the city? And those of you who are buying street-vended (and even restaurant) food that is often prepared by people who are cleaning their butts with hands/plain water after toilet and oftentimes don't even own a bar of soap, how do you justify the importance of absolutely pure water in your home?

- I don't like waste much either but consider flinging huge numbers of plastic bottles into the ecosystem a bit worse than 'waste water' that flushes from an RO system and simply returns to the earth in basically the same form we obtained it. I do have water delivered, in reusable bottles, and don't feel too bad as while I can still carry a 20-liter bottle by the neck in each hand, given my age it isn't going to be long before lugging those things from Tesco or the corner watering hole to my home would make me reconsider 'doing it myself'.

Not only that, even given the 'expensive' 2B/liter I pay for my water, purchasing an expensive filter system, plus the expense of replacing filters and such, and the limited life of the system itself, it is going to be a very, very long time before I realize any financial benefit from that choice.

Oh my, what to do, what to do...?

Oh and, btw, our ice cubes are so clear I frequently wear one as a monocle - cool, eh?

Edited July 11, 2008 by Dustoff