Cambodia's Disputed Hindu Temple Joins Heritage List

[george]

Cambodia's disputed Hindu temple joins heritage list

In one of the most controversial decisions of its eight-day meetings, UNESCO on Monday named a Hindu temple in Cambodia to the World Heritage list that has been under the cloud of a border dispute with Thailand for decades.

Preah Vihear is a stunning clifftop temple dedicated to the Hindu God Shiva perched on the cliff that defines the Thai-Cambodian border.

Cambodia sought designation for the millennium-old temple, but Thailand has challenged the move over a border spat dating to a 1962 International Court of Justice ruling.

In a compromise in May, Cambodia agreed to redraw the inscription map, including only the temple, but the move would limit UNESCO's say over how Preah Vihear would be preserved, officials in Cambodia and Thailand have said.

Cambodia's compromise brought Thailand back on board, and the government signed a joint bid, but then withdrew its approval at the last minute in the face of massive public protests and an order by a Thai Administrative Court.

At the last minute, Thai Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama traveled to Canada to plead against the designation, but without success.

Thailand successfully blocked Cambodia's efforts to list Preah Vihear in both 2006 and 2007 on the grounds that the inscription map included a 4.6-square-kilometre piece of land in the temple compound that is still subject to a border dispute.

--dpa 2008-07-08

[Lorin]

Ups, someone in trouble now....

Cambodia's disputed Hindu temple joins heritage list

In one of the most controversial decisions of its eight-day meetings, UNESCO on Monday named a Hindu temple in Cambodia to the World Heritage list that has been under the cloud of a border dispute with Thailand for decades.

Preah Vihear is a stunning clifftop temple dedicated to the Hindu God Shiva perched on the cliff that defines the Thai-Cambodian border.

Cambodia sought designation for the millennium-old temple, but Thailand has challenged the move over a border spat dating to a 1962 International Court of Justice ruling.

In a compromise in May, Cambodia agreed to redraw the inscription map, including only the temple, but the move would limit UNESCO's say over how Preah Vihear would be preserved, officials in Cambodia and Thailand have said.

Cambodia's compromise brought Thailand back on board, and the government signed a joint bid, but then withdrew its approval at the last minute in the face of massive public protests and an order by a Thai Administrative Court.

At the last minute, Thai Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama traveled to Canada to plead against the designation, but without success.

Thailand successfully blocked Cambodia's efforts to list Preah Vihear in both 2006 and 2007 on the grounds that the inscription map included a 4.6-square-kilometre piece of land in the temple compound that is still subject to a border dispute.

--dpa 2008-07-08

[funfun]

"Thailand successfully blocked Cambodia's efforts"

[KireB]

Good news for Cambodia and its people.

[funfun]

Good news for Cambodia and its people.

or thailand???????

[hammered]

And now from the Constitution court:

FM violates the constitution for signing the agreement with Cambodia over Preah Vihear Temple

The Constitution Court ruled on Tuesday that the joint communique Thai Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama signed with Cambodia violated the Constitution.

Noppadon should get the approval from the Parliament before signing, Paiboon Warahapaiboon, secretary general of the Consitution Court office.

From the Nation

[Thaddeus]

The location of this temple is where? ....... serious question, lat and long would be best, wouldn't mind looking on GoogleEarth.

[slimdog]

Location on Google Earth is:

14 23' 33"N 104 40' 50" E

[Thaddeus]

Cheers

[Plus]

That location has been defaced on Google Earth. You get a million of "Cambodians stole our temple" type of messages.

[hammered]

From TOC:

Cabinet Ministers: Thailand Must Abide by UNESCO’s Decision on Preah Vihear

UPDATE : 8 July 2008

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej declined to speak to any reporters before he attended the weekly Cabinet meeting today, while Cabinet ministers say Thailand must abide by UNESCO’s decision to inscribe Preah Vihear as a world heritage site.

Before the Cabinet meeting took place, the Culture Ministry organized special activities to promote the upcoming Asarnha Bucha Day and the Buddhist Lent Day on the 17th and 18th of this month. Reporters tried to ask PM Samak Sundaravej about his views on UNESCO’s decision to approve Cambodia’s request to have Preah Vihear listed as a world heritage site. But the normally glib premier declined to speak to reporters before he attended the Cabinet meeting.

Deputy Prime Minister and Education Minister Somchai Wongsawat was also hesitant to speak on the issue, saying he’s not an expert on the matter. He also says a special committee could be set up to oversee the disputed areas that surround the newly listed world heritage site.

Meanwhile, Agriculture Minister Somsak Prissanananthakul says the issue of Preah Vihear is not included in the Cabinet meeting’s agenda. However, the ministers would talk about the issue of the Constitution Court’s ruling on whether the Thai-Cambodian joint communiqué violates the Constitution. Somsak also adds that Thailand must abide by the UNESCO’s decision to allow the ancient temple to be listed in Cambodia’s name.

In response to the news about a possible House dissolution, both Somsak and Somchai say the decision rests with the premier. However, they say even if former House Speaker Yongyuth Thiyapairat is found guilty of election fraud, the issue affects neither the government nor Parliament. The Cabinet ministers also denied the People Power party is in the process of registering a new political party in preparation for the possibility of the PPP being disbanded.

[Meerkat]

That location has been defaced on Google Earth. You get a million of "Cambodians stole our temple" type of messages.

Well I guess that's the price one pays for stirring up nationalist sentiment (Sondhi and the Dems), and for a poorly executed public explanation of the realities of the Temple's ownership (Noppadom in particular, and arguably every preceding government who were too scared of publicly addressing the ICJ ruling).

Anyway the CC judgement is a Pyrrhic victory for Sondhi and the Dems in my opinion. They get to end Noppadom's brief reign as FM (and in theory get him tried for treason I believe), but when it comes down to it the WHC's decision to let Cambodia list the Temple without Thai support results in a worse deal for Thailand than had the joint-hosting been allowed to have proceeded as planned. That's not a criticism of any of the courts by the way - they were doing, and continue to do, their job properly.

Potential upside that the WHC recommends that Thailand sets up its own site for approval, but as that will probably include disputed territory, it'll mean going cap-in-hand to Cambodia from a weakened position.

[h90]

That location has been defaced on Google Earth. You get a million of "Cambodians stole our temple" type of messages.

Well I guess that's the price one pays for stirring up nationalist sentiment (Sondhi and the Dems), and for a poorly executed public explanation of the realities of the Temple's ownership (Noppadom in particular, and arguably every preceding government who were too scared of publicly addressing the ICJ ruling).

Anyway the CC judgement is a Pyrrhic victory for Sondhi and the Dems in my opinion. They get to end Noppadom's brief reign as FM (and in theory get him tried for treason I believe), but when it comes down to it the WHC's decision to let Cambodia list the Temple without Thai support results in a worse deal for Thailand than had the joint-hosting been allowed to have proceeded as planned. That's not a criticism of any of the courts by the way - they were doing, and continue to do, their job properly.

Potential upside that the WHC recommends that Thailand sets up its own site for approval, but as that will probably include disputed territory, it'll mean going cap-in-hand to Cambodia from a weakened position.

Well the stairway to the temple is owned by Thailand. Thai public would have understood it better without the shady deals of Thaksin....

[Scott]

How exactly is this due to Mr. Thaksin's shady dealings? (This isn't a challenge or a flame). I don't see a direct connection. Sorry for my ignorance.

[Plus]

Allegedly Noppadon softened Thailand's position in exchange for Thaksin's investments in casino on a Cambodian island.

Thailand - 0, Thaksin -1

[Scott]

I think the problem with this idea--and that doesn't mean it's not right or credible--is why would they need to soften up Cambodia--investment is investment. Secondly, if they were softening them up, then why try to recant their agreement? This, it would seem, is counterproductive and would simply anger the Cambodians. It also would seem counterproductive to Thaksin's interests. If your going to get thrown under the bus it seems like it would be nice to die for something rather than nothing!

[TAWP]

Who says they tried to recant on the agreement?

"I'm going to make a lot of huff and puff about this the coming week but the deal is done and the verdict will be in your favor."

[h90]

Allegedly Noppadon softened Thailand's position in exchange for Thaksin's investments in casino on a Cambodian island.

Thailand - 0, Thaksin -1

Almost sure! As that government made everything in rush, starting the first day they were in power.

That the foreign minister is Thaksins lawer doesn't help at all.

[Meerkat]

Who says they tried to recant on the agreement?

"I'm going to make a lot of huff and puff about this the coming week but the deal is done and the verdict will be in your favor."

It's a fair point, but with the amount of support Cambodia had already garnered over the last couple of years, and the impossibly short time the injunction gave the Thai WHC party to do a "hatchet-job", the decision was almost a cert for Cambodia anyway.

I think that's one point many of the people who automatically try to tie the issue to Thaksin et al seem to forget. Cambodia has been lobbying for years on this (since 1991), and once it had changed the map to the undisputed area covered by the 1962 ruling, there was really nothing Thailand could do to stop it (Cambodia having already rejected a joint-listing). It became simply a matter of trying to get as much benefit from a bad bargaining position as they could and with only a few months haggling time (again, Cambodia having decided last year to nominate the site this month - talk of a "rush job" is just plain wrong IMO). In that respect, Thailand's hands were tied and they've now ended up with even less than the concessions they had managed to wrangle.

Given that Cambodia managed to get the site listed on its own anyway, I still think they'd have done it whatever party in Thailand had won the election - it's just a bit of a "som nam na" episode that it occured on the PPP's watch. Noppadom should resign and let due process then determine his future. During the censure debate when asked why he didn't take the proposal to parliament, he claimed that MFA bureaucrats had told him that it wasn't necessary. If there's evidence to support the claim, the people that gave him the bad information should fall on their swords too.

[Plus]

Cambodia has been lobbying for years on this (since 1991), and once it had changed the map to the undisputed area covered by the 1962 ruling, there was really nothing Thailand could do to stop it

If it was so easy they would have done it back in 1991.

The fact is that the map needed Thailand's approval, and Noppadon got it for Cambodians, no one else before him did, or seriously tried.

[Scott]

This reminds me of those cases where a young lady has sex, but changes her mind afterwards....

[kat]

Congratulations to the Cambodian Government and Cambodian people, in finally getting to list as a World Heritage site their KHMER temple within their KHMER territory. It is a bonus for Thailand that for now the entrance is on the Thai side, but they are too blinded by nationalist tripe to think logically. The Thai people should really be taught history instead of dogma, and grow up.

[Plus]

And what is history here? Neither Thailand nor Cambodia existed when the temple was built, and it's far more likely that it was used by people living in present day Thailand than by folks on Camobidan side who haven't even got an entrance to "their" temple.

Yes, legally Thailand has lost the case fifty years ago and all rights to the appeal, too, but it doesn't change the history - temple belonged to people living on Thai side, not Cambodians.

[kat]

And what is history here? Neither Thailand nor Cambodia existed when the temple was built, and it's far more likely that it was used by people living in present day Thailand than by folks on Camobidan side who haven't even got an entrance to "their" temple.

Yes, legally Thailand has lost the case fifty years ago and all rights to the appeal, too, but it doesn't change the history - temple belonged to people living on Thai side, not Cambodians.

The Preah Vihear temple was built by the Khmers in the 9th Century, about four centuries before Thailand's Sukhothai Kingdom existed. The Khmers are Cambodians, the Cambodians are Khmer. The Empire also ruled over territory that included the territory that is now Thailand. For a brief time, Thailand held the same territory after defeating the Khmers during their decline, but the territory was redrawn thanks to the French and Preah Vihear is within Khmer boundaries.

So, it is a Khmer temple historically, nationally, and due to the a decision by the ICJ after Thailand's invasion of it in the 1950s and seizure by force, judicially as well. They have every right to file and reap the reward of UNESCO status, and it is time for Thailand to move out of their way.

[Plus]

Yes, but that part of the old Khmer empire belongs to Thailand now, and so should the temple, naturally, but not legaslly, of course.

Let Cambodians have it, btw, they have lost just about everything else.

[kat]

The part of Cambodia with the temple DOES NOT belong to Thailand now. The land to the entrance belongs to Thailand, and the border demarcation which was the contention of the ICJ dispute was questionable from the beginning, because Cambodia was not privy to the decision of the Joint Commission between Thailand and France. The French oversight and screw-up, which it was, almost caused a full on war between Cambodia and Thailand, by mistakenly demarcating borders that would have never been peacefully sustainable for Thailand or Cambodia.

Thailand is not doing anyone any favors, especially not Cambodia. It is simply not their temple in any regard, period.

[Steely Dan]

That location has been defaced on Google Earth. You get a million of "Cambodians stole our temple" type of messages.

Well I guess that's the price one pays for stirring up nationalist sentiment (Sondhi and the Dems), and for a poorly executed public explanation of the realities of the Temple's ownership (Noppadom in particular, and arguably every preceding government who were too scared of publicly addressing the ICJ ruling).

Anyway the CC judgement is a Pyrrhic victory for Sondhi and the Dems in my opinion. They get to end Noppadom's brief reign as FM (and in theory get him tried for treason I believe), but when it comes down to it the WHC's decision to let Cambodia list the Temple without Thai support results in a worse deal for Thailand than had the joint-hosting been allowed to have proceeded as planned. That's not a criticism of any of the courts by the way - they were doing, and continue to do, their job properly.

Potential upside that the WHC recommends that Thailand sets up its own site for approval, but as that will probably include disputed territory, it'll mean going cap-in-hand to Cambodia from a weakened position.

I think that Sondhi and the democrats need to be very careful here; My wife's internet TV station seems to have them ranting on about Cambodia 24/7 - Would they like a border war and the temple destroyed in the ensuing melee? At the end of the day they are playing the nationalism card as a political device to get at Taksin, just as Taksin allegedly used the temple as a bargaining chip with which to feather his own nest with. I guess Thai history shows that land is always trumped by political necessity.

[jumnien]

That location has been defaced on Google Earth. You get a million of "Cambodians stole our temple" type of messages.

Well I guess that's the price one pays for stirring up nationalist sentiment (Sondhi and the Dems), and for a poorly executed public explanation of the realities of the Temple's ownership (Noppadom in particular, and arguably every preceding government who were too scared of publicly addressing the ICJ ruling).

Anyway the CC judgement is a Pyrrhic victory for Sondhi and the Dems in my opinion. They get to end Noppadom's brief reign as FM (and in theory get him tried for treason I believe), but when it comes down to it the WHC's decision to let Cambodia list the Temple without Thai support results in a worse deal for Thailand than had the joint-hosting been allowed to have proceeded as planned. That's not a criticism of any of the courts by the way - they were doing, and continue to do, their job properly.

Potential upside that the WHC recommends that Thailand sets up its own site for approval, but as that will probably include disputed territory, it'll mean going cap-in-hand to Cambodia from a weakened position.

I think that Sondhi and the democrats need to be very careful here; My wife's internet TV station seems to have them ranting on about Cambodia 24/7 - Would they like a border war and the temple destroyed in the ensuing melee? At the end of the day they are playing the nationalism card as a political device to get at Taksin, just as Taksin allegedly used the temple as a bargaining chip with which to feather his own nest with. I guess Thai history shows that land is always trumped by political necessity.

PAD's right-wing nationalist angry talking-heads ASTV makes even FOX news look progressive! When will these goons shut up? They are mostly rich spoiled brats without real jobs, so I guess the answer is "a long while".

[Plus]

The part of Cambodia with the temple DOES NOT belong to Thailand now.

Not true - it was the other way around. You are implying that Cambodians won a piece of terrirory that coincidentally included the temple, but it was the other way around - they won the temple and so had to get the land it stands on (still some Thais question their ownership of the land itself).

Thailand is not doing anyone any favors, especially not Cambodia. It is simply not their temple in any regard, period.

So you ignore the queerness of this situation, mentioned in every guidebook or an article on the issue - temple, the heart of the community it belongs to, was separated and given to people who probably never ever been there - folks living under the 500m cliff, ansestors of present day Cambodians in that area. Now they have to apply for Thai visa if they want to enter like civilised people, or sneak through the back door in full climbing gear like thieves. Of course it is true that it was Thais who stole it in the first place, but that's the geopolitical reality of the present day.

Unless Cambodians want to reclaim their old Khmer Empire the tepmle really belonged to, the temple is theirs in name only.

[kat]

That temple is part of Cambodian history, and has always been so. During the Khmer Rouge, they used that temple as a vantage point. You can say whatever you want about that, but the fact is Cambodia has been through a lot and was wracked by war when this issue came into contention. Thai nationalists can rant as much as they want, but that temple is not only bound up with Cambodian history, but created by it. The boundary situation was an arbitrary colonial mistake made in a bilateral discussion that didn't even include Cambodia! At any rate, Thailand never countered with proper arguments throughout the whole case (which was decided by a majority in Cambodia's favor) until they realized they could make money from the World Heritage Fund.

Too bad. Their ugly nationalist rants are not going to move anyone unless they want to start a war over it.

Edited July 13, 2008 by kat