Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[JSixpack]

upset after surviving a nearly fatal motorcycle wreck earlier this month

Oh--sorry to hear that. Did you post about it?

[kat]

I'm also glad to hear you're OK, PB.

[PeaceBlondie]

teacup, foreigners like you once were in America, do not need work permits to do charity in the West. Farang here do need work permits, which are very very very very difficult to get, if not impossible. So it is not a lame excuse. It is a Thai barrier that Thais who run charities seem unable to resolve.

Yes, the Thai government (which is not the Thai people) has many valid reasons to restrict foreigners from working, even in charities. So be it, and therefore Thais like yourself can understand why farang do not wish to violate Thai law in that regard.

I accidentally overlooked your prior reply to my posts, but I doubt we need to argue fine points.

[jumnien]

I don't see what's so wrong with being vehemently critical against the Thai people for allowing constantly complaining farangs to take up residence here.

[awakened]

My answer is also 'No', although I do understand the tendency to complain. Some have the education and vocabulary to complain in a sophisticated manner, some just burp obscenities into their beer.

Are Thais, Brits, Americans, Germans, etc.. different? Aren't we just talking about people? Sure there are some cultures who in general complain more than others. I find those from colder countries to be more miserable than those in warmer ones. Hardly a surprise.

Steinbeck said it very well when he travelled around America. Pretty much everyone he spoke to, wanted to be somewhere else. We are never satisfied and especially in western materialist culture we are conditioned to BE dissatisfied. Aren't we just acting in accordance with our conditioning?

I think the world is split between pessimists and optimists. The pessimist is right. The optimist is right. From their own perspective both are right. But who is happier?

We also know misery loves company! What better place than ThaiVisa to find company?

[geriatrickid]

upset after surviving a nearly fatal motorcycle wreck earlier this month

Oh--sorry to hear that. Did you post about it?

I belive he did. He failed to complain which in turn caused me to consider lodging a complaint about his lack of complaining. I decided I would take a raincheck on the complaint so that I can complain about his driving skill when it is most inappropriate.

And if no one likes my complaining go and complain to my homie tuggy and he'll do what he does when farangs complain

[Miami Bob]

Having lived in Miami, USA for 36 years where latinos have totally taken over the city and Spanish is the first language for 85% of the population within the city limits, I had a little differant attitude than most Farangs when I moved to Thailand. I made a big effort to learn the language and culture and expect nothing from the Thais.

I constantly laugh with my Farang friends about all the stupid, inefficient, superstitious, illogical, obcession with not loosing face, way things are done here, but I keep my mouth shut about it around Thais. They don't want to hear about it and feel the same way Americans felt about the Latins in Miami.....if you don't like it get the <removed> out.

One thing I can't resist pointing out to Thais is that Farangs who come here to live generally have more money when they arrive than most Thais, as where in countries like the USA or Britain most foreigners arrive with NOTHING and expect EVERYTHING. I asked my Thai wife and her neigborhood girlfriends..." what would you think if all the Farangs in Phuket came here with no money and expected the Thais to provide them with free medical care and send their kids to school?" It was beyond thier comprihention!!

Phuket is almost totally dependant on foreign money now so logic would dictate we should have a big say about what goes on here, but since when does logical thought have anything to do with what goes on here?

So my answer to the origional question is ....."yes' we have the right to complain about Thailand but "no" it won't do any good so if you don't like it go home.

[Bizz]

For me it is as simple as I live with a different culture.

I am not living in Europe anymore I live with people who are of a different frame of mind at times than me.

I try not to create conflict nor do I seek it out. I smile and wai when the occasion warrants it.

I do not grumble or demean my neighbours nor do I expect or want them to change.

This is there way it is not for me to try and change what I see or disprove of.

I live in a foreign country where I have found peace and good will.

Learn to live and with your fellow man.

I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

[Shotime]

My only complaint, and not necessarily about Thailand specifically, is being looked at by the non-aliens, as an alien. The misdirected resentment, but there are ways to deal with that. As far as the habits, lifestyles, and attitudes which can be annoying, I can overlook it. As long as it's not directed at me, but that's true anywhere. No electric, my battery is dying, have a good day.

[CHIEFOFFICER]

TIT,as a retierd sailor,been living here 20 years, Thailand has its problems, but for me thailand is good.

[Jingthing]

Teacup,

Thanks for your response.

I think you misunderstood me, but thanks anyway.

1. I never said the work permit issue was my main issue for not doing volunteer work here. I mentioned it is an aside.

2. Getting work permits for volunteer work is not trivial. I think people find no cooperation from the organizations they volunteer for and are working illegally. They could potentially be deported for working illegally. Not trivial. I am no expert on this and it is probably worthy of another new thread (edit: oh, I see one has already been started, good). BTW, those on retirement extensions are expressly forbidden to work in Thailand.

3. You took the word LOVE literally. You suggest we volunteer. I suggested if the Thai government wants more people here on retirement extensions to feel more involved and committed to their Thai community, in other words to LOVE their community, they should reform the visa laws and offer a permanent residence path for such foreigners, as some but not all other countries with foreigner retirement programs do. In the US, it is a known fact that homeowners participate and are involved much more in their local community than those who rent. The visa laws for retired foreigners makes us all virtual renters, even the many of us who do "own" real estate here. BTW, you came to the US on a student visa, a temporary situation, with the intention of going home. Most foreigners who move to Thailand on retirement extensions come to live out the last portion of their life here. Probably most die here. They are not the same thing.

4. I never said all Thais are xenophobic. As you studied in the west, obviously, you are not especially typical. However, perhaps as a Thai it is hard for you see the high degree of xenophobia here among both the people and the government. It isn't hard for us to see it. Just as you as a foreigner in the US could see some things more clearly about the US than the natives, so can we about Thailand, believe it or not. An example, in academic circles the writings of Alexis de Tocqueville, a foreigner, a Frenchman, are cited as some of the most perceptive thinking about Americans ever written, and could have NEVER been written by an American.

In Thailand, you have a similar situation. There is that book we can't mention. Not written by a Thai. Could never have been written by a Thai. You probably haven't read it. Many of us have.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Jingthing

[abdulrahman]

This tread didn't begin very well,and I was disappointed by the earlier opinions;now it looks increasingly better,thank to PB and the Thais point of view.

So,I'll add my 2 satangs.Having worked and lived in many countries,none of them Paradise,I accept,having chosen to live my remaining years in Thailand,the high and low of it.Nationalism is the same as ignorance,Thailand is not alone,but high,or,better,low in the ranking.

It will not change for better as long we don't think of ourselves as fellow humans.Not in my life anymore.

I reserve myself the right to object to everything i feel wrong,as long as I accept (grumbling)every critic to my personal behavior.

[qwertz]

As a professional expat I learned long ago that most of the whinging from non-natives stems from their lack of understanding of

the collective psychology in their host country.

That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

It's enough to acknowledge that the people are different, they're not going to change and you can live among them if you just

accept what you can't change.

Thais are not so alien if you handle them objectively.

[garro]

As a professional expat I learned long ago that most of the whinging from non-natives stems from their lack of understanding of

the collective psychology in their host country.

That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

It's enough to acknowledge that the people are different, they're not going to change and you can live among them if you just

accept what you can't change.

Thais are not so alien if you handle them objectively.

A very sensible post qwertz and unlike your usual cheeky contributions.

Are you feeling quite well?

[nohave]

We are guests in this country. We are not Thais. We are here because we like it. It's different from home TIT that is why Thailand is popular and will always be popular with tourists and expatriates alike- it's different. A former colleague of mine an American, he did nothing but complaining and moaning about how things are done over here. I told him this "Thais are not Americans, Thais are Thai and do things the Thai way". Needless to say he shut up and stopped talking to me completely 555 (hahahaha)

I voted no.

[nohave]

Excellent post Sir!

Totally agree with you!

As a professional expat I learned long ago that most of the whinging from non-natives stems from their lack of understanding of

the collective psychology in their host country.

That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

It's enough to acknowledge that the people are different, they're not going to change and you can live among them if you just

accept what you can't change.

Thais are not so alien if you handle them objectively.

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me if I am repeating....

Yes, we should not be SO critical of Thailand and the Thai people.

Yes, we should try to learn the culture, respect it, get used to it.

Yes, we should not try to impose the culture of our homeland on Thailand.

And also, we should be able to raise our voices respectfully when we see a problem here that needs to be fixed, even if it is fixed by Thais in their way.

[qwertz]

As a professional expat I learned long ago that most of the whinging from non-natives stems from their lack of understanding of

the collective psychology in their host country.

That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

It's enough to acknowledge that the people are different, they're not going to change and you can live among them if you just

accept what you can't change.

Thais are not so alien if you handle them objectively.

A very sensible post qwertz and unlike your usual cheeky contributions.

Are you feeling quite well?

I'm feeling quite chipper at the moment, thank you Mr. G for your appreciation.

One could say I'm on a philosophical role at present.

BTW, am I really cheeky?

[qwertz]

As a professional expat I learned long ago that most of the whinging from non-natives stems from their lack of understanding of

the collective psychology in their host country.

That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

It's enough to acknowledge that the people are different, they're not going to change and you can live among them if you just

accept what you can't change.

Thais are not so alien if you handle them objectively.

A very sensible post qwertz and unlike your usual cheeky contributions.

Are you feeling quite well?

I'm feeling quite chipper at the moment, thank you Mr. G for your appreciation.

One could say I'm on a philosophical roll at present.

BTW, am I really cheeky?

P.S. Sorry about the double post.

Edited July 16, 2008 by qwertz

[Naam]

please elaborate what you meant Quertz. version 1 or version 2?

1. That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

2. That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course, learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Naam

[elkangorito]

I did not vote because I was unsure of the contextual meaning of the word "critical". The poll is too "black & white".

(JimmyTheMook @ 2008-07-11 07:04:34)I say no. We are not forced to live here and anyone with basic logic can see how poorly run Thailand and it's society is, but still probably a lot more fun than back home.

It's true that WE are not forced to live here but neither is anybody else in the world, forced to live in a country that is not their won. Does this mean that all foreigners in all countries should shut their mouths?

Like it or not, the world is ONE PLACE, albeit riddled with religious, cultural & political differences. But this is what makes our world so interesting. If everybody blindly "shut their mouths", nothing would change. Has the world changed? Yes, it has. Why has it changed? Because some people did not shut their mouths.

It is a fact that WE are gregarious & as a result, we generally like to experience other parts of the world. Would we be so gregarious if we had to "shut our mouths" in a foreign country? I think not. With this in mind, go ahead & name some countries you would not visit. Also, look at the countries you have chosen. Are they open to criticism? Are they prone to any real change? If not, why not?

Also, is it not "human" to question things? Sometimes, a critical response is really a question.

All of this nonsense is about "fear". Basically, fear of rejection for saying the wrong thing. If nobody ever said the wrong thing, we would be a very bored bunch of people.

I have Thai friends in Australia. Their behaviour in Australia is exemplary although very self constricting. They are intent upon "appearing" to be wonderful. Whether this is true in their heart or just for show, is another question. The difference is that once they realise that they can be themselves, they change & actually become critical of Australia. In my opinion, this is a healthy sign that they are thinking, caring people & not irresponsible blind followers of a bunch of rules.

So, IMHO, farangs who "constructively" criticise Thailand (or any other country) are behaving with respect & are active members of the planet...as we all are. This is real humanity at work.

[Bagwan]

Yes, we should not try to impose the culture of our homeland on Thailand.

If this means closing every Starbucks, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, Dunkin' Donuts in LOS then I am all for it.

Complaining comes easily to 'greyhairs'. "It wasn't like that in my day" is frequently spouted by senior citizens irrespective of location and/or nationality of the speaker. Sometimes I slip up and listen to what I am saying and then, to my horror, thinking "Jeez, I sound just like my Dad used to." Instead of grumbling about practically everything that the young embrace (what passes for music, clothes, manners, infantile footballers) the subject of their disaffection is aspects of life in LOS. Merely a fact of life?

When amid my Thai family and friends I desist from commenting upon their way of life. They are exercising some of their choices, even if I do think that they have been brain washed. I am, however, highly critical of the way that the country is run i.e. not for the benefit of the huge majority. Those around me have no difficulty in wishing for a better standard of living viz. education, medical care, career opportunities, freedom from suppression by people in uniform ect ect. If I can give them a better perspective and an awareness, then I call that education.

[Ulysses G.]

If this means closing every Starbucks, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, Dunkin' Donuts in LOS then I am all for it.

Better to send you off to North Korea where you won't be bothered with all that!

[qwertz]

please elaborate what you meant Quertz. version 1 or version 2?

1. That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course. learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

2. That doesn't mean you have to do an immersion course, learn the lingo, convert to their creed, to try to become one of them.

Soory, Naam, I meant # 2, the one with the commas.

[Naam]

Soory, Naam, I meant # 2, the one with the commas.

now i can relax

[jietjon]

Everyone has a rite to gripe you know, and anyway the talent and weather in Scotland is piss poor..... end of

[Bagwan]

If this means closing every Starbucks, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, Dunkin' Donuts in LOS then I am all for it.

Better to send you off to North Korea where you won't be bothered with all that!

Good idea. I'd avoid all the hoohaa of the interminable US Presidential elections too which eventually end up with a dumbo and/or crook being elected.

[Chaimai]

If this means closing every Starbucks, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, Dunkin' Donuts in LOS then I am all for it.

If this is a poll I cast my vote with Bagwan

[qwertz]

Soory, Naam, I meant # 2, the one with the commas.

now i can relax

Why, were you tense?

There must be a thread somewhere for dealing with that.