To Protect And Threaten?

[libya 115]

SOURCE: Pattaya Mail: July 11th-July 17th Edition: Mailbag

To protect and threaten

Dear Ed;

I would like to share with you and your readers what happened to my wife and I last Friday outside of Tukcom shopping plaza.

I was stopped by the boys in brown for not having a standard exhaust system on my little 110cc motorcycle. The officer insisted that my motorcycle was too noisy so I had earned myself a 1,000 baht fine.

I protested that the exhaust was not too noisy as I have had a muffler welded on the end of the exhaust to reduce the noise. (In all honestly it’s no louder than any other moped on the road). He was not interested in my protests, even when a 1,000cc chopper roared past us rattling windows on the shop fronts. I protested, saying that is what you call noisy. He then complained to my Thai wife that I was speaking to him without respect and I would incur more fines if I don’t keep quite.

Realizing my protests where in vain, I parked up the motorcycle at his request and we headed off to the police station to pay the fine.

On my return, we showed him that we had paid the fine and asked if he could please now remove the large rusty chain that he had wrapped around my motorcycle.

He took the receipt and then walked across the other side of the road and sat down talking to his colleagues and left us standing there for 20 minutes waiting for him to return to unchain the bike. Obviously, he was trying annoy us (which was working as we were now late to collect our son from school) and prove that he had the power to mess us about. He eventually came back across the road and reluctantly released my motorcycle. I noticed that the chain had scratched the bike on both sides of the fairing and I wasn’t a happy tourist and told him so.

He then explained to my wife that “he did not like falangs here in Pattaya” and that “they come here and they think can do whatever they like because they have big money” and also to “tell your husband, that if I see him out, I am going to hurt him”. I couldn’t believe my ears. I paid the fine and did everything he asked but because I wasn’t happy about the fact he scratched my motorcycle, he’s now going to “hurt me”. Would he have not complained if I had damaged his vehicle?

Having heard this remark, I thought it best to report the incident to his superiors, which we did. They did take note and told us they will investigate the matter and not to worry because he probably won’t be able to remember me. (That didn’t really instill me with confidence about my protection from a gun carrying, self confessed falang hating police officer.)

Nice to see the BIB sticking to their motto “To Protect and Serve”. What a joke it; should be “To Intimidate and Threaten”.

[poshthai]

Unfortunately you got a bib with a big attitude problem.I need to ask one question though,he stopped you and fined you for a noisy motorbike,then he let you go with a noisy motorbike again.I think he will keep stopping you unless something is done to your bike.However this case seems unusual,as my neighbours 6 dogs are always barking and much noisier than a motorbike.

[britmaveric]

The writer knowing what an arse the BIB was being decided to protest a second time? I think I would have left well enough alone since it would only mean more trouble for him in the end.

[poshthai]

britmaverick,

In hindisght i do agree with you but it didnt seem he was shouting at the officer,just stating his case,but i do agree you cannot speak to bib like the uk police,and quite right too.

[Mobi]

By his own admission he had a non- standard exhaust, so he had comitted a "technical" offence, however minor.

It is always a mistake for a farang to argue with a Thai cop - it will get you no where, as the letter writer found out. The Thai police will never back down to a farang as they will lose face.

If your Thai wife or Thai friend wishes to argue, that's another matter, and sometimes they can be successful, but as a farang you should stay quiet and show the utmost respect, whatever the provocation.

I was once given a ticket for having a 'small' number plate on my car. My driver took the car to the police staion and try to compalin that the plate was the standard size. The police wouldn't have it, and he had to pay the fine. Later, when I went to the vehicle licensing office to renew my tax, I asked the inspector to look at my number plate. He said there was nothing wrong with it, it was the standard size.

Remember that the BIB are organised criminals - nothing more, nothing less. When you understand this, you will understand that it is pointless to argue.

[Heng]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Like it or not, unless you can prove otherwise... say with a number and business card(s) -the more the better- of folks higher up than he is, the cop is higher (even a piss poor peon beat cop) than you in the local hierarchy and will act accordingly..

[Heng]

It is always a mistake for a farang to argue with a Thai cop - it will get you no where, as the letter writer found out. The Thai police will never back down to a farang as they will lose face.

Not true for SOME farangs that are higher up in the hierarchy. Sometimes just pretending will work as well, but often times that can backfire as well (have seen a few farangs and locals try to throw around some names of important people... and the cop will call them out and ask them to call them up...).

[NotNew2You]

Remember that the BIB are organised criminals - nothing more, nothing less. When you understand this, you will understand that it is pointless to argue.

Very well put and good to remember in situations like this.

[NotNew2You]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

True, but there are fewer b*llsh!t traffic stops at home as well It's sometimes not easy to keep one's cool in such situations. Maybe it helps to keep in mind that annual car registration is pretty cheap and car insurance in less in LOS so a few dings a year from the BIB are not too much of an extra "road tax." Also, the lowely traffic officer making the stop is just meeting a quota he has been given and likely see's little of the take personally.

However, usually, if one keeps their cool, a couple C-baht notes usually does the trick.

[Briggsy]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

[blacknok]

Just keep cool

[Heng]

True, but there are fewer b*llsh!t traffic stops at home as well It's sometimes not easy to keep one's cool in such situations.

I totally sympathize, as I do see and drive through traffic stops all the time, but I can't really relate personally because I haven't actually been "waved/pulled over" in about 10 years (and I was clearly in the wrong crossing 3-4 lanes of traffic and doing a u-turn on Ratchadomnoen), so all I can conclude personally is that all those people being stopped are those who are indeed doing something wrong.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Heng

[Heng]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

[bangkokrick]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

It does not just apply to farangs they treat the Thais equally as badly if not worse.

Cheers, Rick

[marshbags]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, Wrong and ill informed, re this part, U.K. wise anyway but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Like it or not, unless you can prove otherwise... say with a number and business card(s) -the more the better- of folks higher up than he is, the cop is higher (even a piss poor peon beat cop) than you in the local hierarchy and will act accordingly..

marshbags

[Heng]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

It does not just apply to farangs they treat the Thais equally as badly if not worse.

Cheers, Rick

That's what they say, but again, as a Thai, I've yet to encounter it. I do hear of many farang "anecdotes" of mistreatment by the police though.

[Heng]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, Wrong and ill informed, re this part, U.K. wise anyway but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Like it or not, unless you can prove otherwise... say with a number and business card(s) -the more the better- of folks higher up than he is, the cop is higher (even a piss poor peon beat cop) than you in the local hierarchy and will act accordingly..

marshbags

Thanks for the info. My UK experiences have been limited to Heathrow, the usual tourist stops, whatever hotel, and Wimbledon. Have yet to talk with or see anyone argue with any cops there.

[bangkokrick]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

It does not just apply to farangs they treat the Thais equally as badly if not worse.

Cheers, Rick

That's what they say, but again, as a Thai, I've yet to encounter it. I do hear of many farang "anecdotes" of mistreatment by the police though.

I hope that you don't encounter it Heng.

I don't honestly think that you can draw any comparison between the Thai and the UK police. I would like to see what happens to anyone who tries to bribe a UK policeman whereas in Thailand it's the police who demand the bribes. Chalk and cheese.

Cheers, Rick

[Heng]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

It does not just apply to farangs they treat the Thais equally as badly if not worse.

Cheers, Rick

That's what they say, but again, as a Thai, I've yet to encounter it. I do hear of many farang "anecdotes" of mistreatment by the police though.

I hope that you don't encounter it Heng.

I don't honestly think that you can draw any comparison between the Thai and the UK police. I would like to see what happens to anyone who tries to bribe a UK policeman whereas in Thailand it's the police who demand the bribes. Chalk and cheese.

Cheers, Rick

thanks Rick.

And actually I was drawing a comparison between the people arguing with cops, not the cops themselves (I certainly wasn't saying they were remotely the same).

[bangkokrick]

Most folks wouldn't argue with a cop in their home countries, but many apparently think that's it okay to do so here. Not usually a good idea in any case.

Cops back home wouldn't stop you and demand money with menaces for fictitious offences. (not the norm but it does happen here. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it has happened to me.)

I'm not doubting that it happens (as I do know of a case of police entrapment involving copyright infringement at my friend's internet cafe... where the offending music mp3's where planted by the police... cleared up with a 50k fine payable to Grammy and whoever else), I just don't see it as something widespread.

Of course, many blacks in the US insist that they are unfairly targetted as well... it might be something similar here only substitute farangs instead of African Americans.

It does not just apply to farangs they treat the Thais equally as badly if not worse.

Cheers, Rick

That's what they say, but again, as a Thai, I've yet to encounter it. I do hear of many farang "anecdotes" of mistreatment by the police though.

I hope that you don't encounter it Heng.

I don't honestly think that you can draw any comparison between the Thai and the UK police. I would like to see what happens to anyone who tries to bribe a UK policeman whereas in Thailand it's the police who demand the bribes. Chalk and cheese.

Cheers, Rick

thanks Rick.

And actually I was drawing a comparison between the people arguing with cops, not the cops themselves (I certainly wasn't saying they were remotely the same).

Sorry Heng misunderstood you.

I think that it's fair to say that you can reasonably discuss a situation with the UK police, as i have done in the past but i would not argue with them. Besides that they will only stop you if you have done something wrong and i have never experienced them manufacturing a crime.

I would not argue with a Thai policeman period, as there is only one winner and that would not be me.

Cheers, Rick

[scotsman]

In the uk if you get a traffic ticket you can refuse to pay the fine if you think its unjust and take your chances in a court of law. I am not sure how or if you can do that here if you do not agree with the offense. May be someone out there can tell us? I for one have been stopped only once with my car for tea money fine, I did nothing wrong but you can't win so why try. Just out of curiosity I would like to know if you can refuse to pay fine and contest it in a Thai court of law.?.

[britmaveric]

Well in this case he wouldnt get his motorbike back until you pay said fine.... so its really a non-starter.

As for other countries, coppers might not ask for dosh, but they certainly will fk with you just because they can, so its always best to be calm/collected, yes sir, no sir and let them finish with you then try your chances in court. Arguing with any copper will just make the situation worse for you.

[Heng]

In the uk if you get a traffic ticket you can refuse to pay the fine if you think its unjust and take your chances in a court of law. I am not sure how or if you can do that here if you do not agree with the offense. May be someone out there can tell us?

It's not a magic cure all, but depending on the offense, the correct procedure would be to calmly/politely say something like "I don't agree, I'd like to discuss this further at the station, and I'd like to have my lawyer present before I sign anything." I've never had to do so myself, but I have loads of free time and an attorney in the family so that's what I would do if I felt I was being wrongfully accused of something.

[bangkokrick]

Well in this case he wouldnt get his motorbike back until you pay said fine.... so its really a non-starter.

As for other countries, coppers might not ask for dosh, but they certainly will fk with you just because they can, so its always best to be calm/collected, yes sir, no sir and let them finish with you then try your chances in court. Arguing with any copper will just make the situation worse for you.

I tend to work on the 'Humble pie' theory and it seems to work in most instances. If you don't argue with them and just smile as you hand over the dosh then it is very difficult for them to fuc_k with you.

A uniform means power in all societies.

Cheers, Rick

[mikethevigoman]

Reading between the lines the guy had an attitude problem id say,., whether in the wrong or not pay and piss off,.thats my motto, ill bet the cop deliberatly damaged the bike when he went off to the ps,.jumping up and down here demanding rights and quoting the law wil get you nowhere,. well actually it will ,in hospital with high blood pressure !,.TIT

[dotcom]

In the uk if you get a traffic ticket you can refuse to pay the fine if you think its unjust and take your chances in a court of law. I am not sure how or if you can do that here if you do not agree with the offense. May be someone out there can tell us? I for one have been stopped only once with my car for tea money fine, I did nothing wrong but you can't win so why try. Just out of curiosity I would like to know if you can refuse to pay fine and contest it in a Thai court of law.?.

I don't know about court.

I do know - most of the time you have 2 options - on the spot. Pay in cash - or let the officer write you a ticket & you are gonna pay a hel_l of a lot more at the station.

I have met plenty of cops who WOULD NOT take a bribe or spot fine as I like to think of it. They take your lisence & write you a ticket - tell you to wait 7 days & then go pay the fine.

btw - 1000 baht is well over the top for a loud pipe. They must have 2 fee schedules in Pattaya Beach. One for Thai & one for falang.

I have been fined so many times I have lost count. 99% of the time I did something wrong. But I choose to view it like the above poster who said it's the cost of doing business.

You can curse the cops all you want - but it will be them picking your broken body up after a crash - or you've had your house burgled. I try & smile & be pleasant - even when I'm being shaken down.

TIT

[Briggsy]

I have met plenty of cops who WOULD NOT take a bribe or spot fine as I like to think of it. They take your lisence & write you a ticket Every police station is allowed to keep a large percentage of the revenue from traffic tickets up to a stipulated monthly maximum. Therefore, until that maximum is reached, officers will be instructed to issue tickets. - tell you to wait 7 days & then go pay the fine. I think you'll find that you must pay the fine within 7 days.

btw - 1000 baht is well over the top for a loud pipe. They must have 2 fee schedules in Pattaya Beach. One for Thai & one for falang. The law stipulates a fine of not less than 400 Baht and not more than 1000 Baht for many traffic offences. You may well be right that in Pattaya Thais receive the minimum fine and farangs the maximum, I don't know. Alternatively, from my own experience, I have found the fine is always 400 unless the copper takes a dislike to you.

You can curse the cops all you want - but it will be them picking your broken body up after a crash - or you've had your house burgled. I try & smile & be pleasant - even when I'm being shaken down. Actually it will be one of the voluntary rescue services that recover your corpse such as Pok Tek Tung.

TIT

[boiledegg]

In the uk if you get a traffic ticket you can refuse to pay the fine if you think its unjust and take your chances in a court of law.

If it was unjust yes but this guy had broken a law no matter how small and would lose in any court without a hotshot lawyer.

It just proves the legal system in the UK wastes too much time and money on trivial offences thus clogging up the system for when serious criminal cases needs court time, so IMO the Thai legal system is superior in this case if ticketing offences cant make it that far down the line.

There are too many laws in all our over policed countries.

[Rimmer]

I wonder if 15 pounds (1000 baht) fine would cut it for a noisy exhaust system in sunny youkay

Sounds cheap to me for all that noise pollution.

[AGareth2]

I have found a smile and polite behaviour normally just gets a warning.

You thank him go away and carry on per usual. Every one is happy.

He has gained face you think he is a w.....r and the world carries on