How Do Thai Men Respond To Womens Emotions

[desi]

So that leaves the question, is the "not rocking the boat - mai pen rai" attitude merely an act of setting a time bomb with a long fuse on it? Oh it's so complicated.

I was thinking about that too, but then remembered that we have similar in the west.

A valuable piece of advice given to those who's spouses or mates are going through a midlife crisis is to learn the art of detachment (think mai bpen rai). And it doesn't happen overnight, it takes a lot of work to detach, detach, detach whenever you feel the push to nag, or query, or dig about some such or something that is just not important in the scheme of things. And sometimes, it's handy when the issues are important because keeping sane is the name of the game when a midlife crisis is in the works. Detach, detach, detach... I believe men do it naturally? It's called compartmentalizing.

When I was younger I was controlling. I'd get crazy upset if I couldn't control certian situations in a relationship - a husband who drank too much (he eventually drank himself to death), friends who didn't keep their word, etc.

But by learning detachment / mai bpen rai, you can release yourself from all that worry, all that useless control. And of course, you have to take action to avoid being around people who are not your personal brand of sanuk :-)

But detachment really does work. I still use it in daily situations with friends, service people (and boy, did I need it when there were contractors here), or when yet another mobile phone gets left in a taxi (what IS it with guys and mobile phones?). Because really, there are things that won't change even if you could get your thumb grinding on them. They'd only escalate out of control, and who needs that? Life is too sweet. Too short. And phones are easy to buy, so, Mai bpen rai...

Yes, I might joke about something that irritates me at the time. Or mention it then leave it be (enough already). But it does get less and less when there is a mai pben rai attitude in place. Especially when both are willing to compromise (I'll be nice to your mother if you put the toilet seat down..)

I've only been in Thailand for three years, so who knows? I just might explode in a ball of fury one day.

[girlx]

actually, i think that women talking with women/sisters/aunts is in a way a more powerful action. it means that u arent reliant on your husband for all emotional needs but can deal even if he isnt around....

yeah i see your point and i don't think using your partner as a sounding board for everything is healthy for a relationship, but i don't like the segregation because most of my friends in my life have been male. when i go to a party here, i am more likely to want to sit with the men (drinking, playing music, chatting) than with the women (cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids). i find it very frustrating that the sexes don't mingle. but that's sort of off topic anyway.

[Marvo]

A very sound philosophy Desi. I think that detachment concept could be applied to many situations where getting "sucked in" is only going to add to the destruction.

Some people see the mai bpen rai approach/attitude as a weakness but, like you, I see it as a strength when used with awareness. Maybe the bad press it receives is when it is used as an excuse for, or out of laziness.

[eek]

Bina, i think you really have the right idea about not being reliant on your husband/partner for all emotional needs, something I think i was guilty of too much in the past. I always found it difficult to 'air my dirty laundry in public' so to speak (something i was brought up not to do, but I now realise its healthy to discuss things with others), so I think I leaned too much on my male partner for reassurance and discussions that probably bored him or that he could not understand emotionally (purely because i trusted him and didnt want to embarrass him outside of our home by discussing things personal about us).

I realise I now I have a strong need for trusted female company to share female points of view and share our concerns and confide in. I have no close female relative in my life (mother, grandmother, etc), so no confidante there and when I moved to Thailand my good female friendships in the UK have become distant friendly catch-up chats (our lives are so different now, its also hard to relate to each other quite as much as before). Hopefully I will make some female friends here soon.

I now think being too emotional with the man in your life puts too much strain on him. I think men like to have solutions to problems, women just need to air them out. Im sure men must get confused and frustrated when either they dont know how to find a solution (not realising you dont need one) or it seems like you wont listen to their solution and calm down. Women in turn get frustrated as to why their man isnt just listening rather than constantly trying to offer solutions.

[desi]

Some people see the mai bpen rai approach/attitude as a weakness but, like you, I see it as a strength when used with awareness.

Exactly! It is a strength. A lovely strength.

Now, I don't know how the majority of Thai relationships are, but the constant quibbling and badgering I knew from (some) western guys was numbing and did get a negative reaction from me in return. The 'Where were you, Why aren't you home yet? Why haven't you done xyz? You broke WHAT? You lost WHAT? Were you talking to a guy? Why didn't you answer your phone/door/letters? Who is he? Do your hair different. Don't wear that. Don't say that. Louder. Not so loud. Don't buy that. Don't drink that...'

Now, compare all that to mai bpen rai.

And I do know that some Thai partners do badger. So just like in the west, it's a mixture of personality, culture and background. And the adoption, or not, of the mai bpen rai / distancing philosophy to a relationship.

Maybe the bad press it receives is when it is used as an excuse for, or out of laziness.

Again, I don't have a Thai mate. But yes, I can see where it would get in the way if a settled life came to a stop due to one partner doing the majority and the other spouting mai bpen rai at each turn.

Edited July 22, 2008 by desi

[girlx]

Do your hair different. Don't wear that. Don't say that. Louder. Not so loud. Don't buy that. Don't drink that...'

a lot of thai men definitely say these things too. there is still a bit of that "get in the kitchen and make me some food" attitude amongst rural thai men.

[desi]

...there is still a bit of that "get in the kitchen and make me some food" attitude amongst rural thai men.

I was curious about how far the mai bpen rai went in reality. So I guess I'll keep my, 'do you want to eat out tonight?' man.

It's worked out quite well for him actually. Lately I've been bored with going out or even getting food delivered, so more than not, I insist on cooking.

[shikonjewel]

I always get the "You think too much" answer. If I'm visibly upset he doesn't just walk away from me though, unless I verbally tell to get away from me lol (which doesn't happen often). Sometimes I get the "I don't understand you!" response too. I've learned now though if I want to verbally talk to him about something to just talk about it and ask his opinion. Although most of the time now he want's to know, really. I think all of our bumps help us smooth out the little cultural differences that create miscommunication.

Although sometimes this works and other times it just doesn't (an example of this to explain might be if I'm angry/upset about something happening at work, versus something he did that I don't agree with) which sometimes is the way for things to likely get to the next level. Mainly because I have my fathers irish patience and when I don't understand why my message isn't getting through I CAN'T STAND IT! lol It's also hard after you explain yourself a dozen times and still get the same response.

.... I probably made myself sound bad there but it really doesn't happen all that often. He has gotten better over the past year though to give the poor boy some credit. I'm sorry for the rant. Anyways I share your frustration!

EDIT: I don't know if you could consider my post from a different point of view, because my bf has been thrown into my culture alot more than I have been caught in his. So really, I think sometimes his 'go with the flow' attitude or mai bpen rai (? ..is it?) Has probably saved him in some cases. hahaha Compared to some of my friends relationships with Canadian men he has been very understanding, in certain respects.

Edited July 23, 2008 by shikonjewel

[Goinghomesoon]

a lot of thai men definitely say these things too. there is still a bit of that "get in the kitchen and make me some food" attitude amongst rural thai men.

Haha, Girlx I love that you are so tongue-in-cheek and hopefully not too jaded! Thank goodness my Thai man is the opposite of this stereotype Being raised with 5 sisters in northern Isaan he is far more aware of how to treat women than any other man I've met. And lthough he has a limited repetoire in the kitchen, he's learning.

[bina]

anon is the only one in the kitchen; even after working all day in the restaraunt, he will come home and cook; i'd just as soon eat a cold piece of leftover pizza, or a sandwich... but after all, a meal w/o rice is not considered eating, so he cooks...

i do the laundry, only cause if he does it, all the colours mix...

when i ask for an opinion about 'is my hair ok?', or 'is this piece of clothing ok?", i get, 'if u like it, then its fine'... and he prefers 'modest' dress which only means regular clothes, no skimpy items when going out of the house which i dont wear anyway so no bother... he really doesnt notice visual stuff , prefers 'natural' (no makeup, not dressed up too impress, also for himself too-- not the makeup obviously!--)

bina

[DaoDao]

Hubbie cooks most of the time! [delicious!] makes time for me, hears me out, tries to give me all 'the freedom' I need, tries to cope with the fact that I do some travelling on my own in lowseason when he's back home in south to help out his family.

We do have arguments but talk them thrue...never had al of this with a western guy.

Edited July 24, 2008 by DaoDao

[eek]

He's not brutally honest though. I'd say He's more wanting things to be smooth, calm, and happy so he does avoid total honesty. Isn't that Thai in a way too? But he does not take things personally at all. He passes most off by excusing for one reason or another (someone is having a bad day, something external is going on, etc). While I'm more likely to mull over the 'why' of actions.

When I met him I was surprised when he didn't go after me if I was huffy (I used to have a temper, mostly gone now). Being chased after when you are trying to get away was annoying, so after I got over the surprise, all was more than well.

Oh, I just read this page over again and you have described something perfectly that I have also been thinking over. As for being surprised by not being 'chased after' when upset/huffy, that was something that surprised me also. Its good to hear that from someone else. I realise now that that behaviour is an ingrained behaviour, and actually quite childish. I realise also that i have been used to quite emotional decelerations of love and demonstrations of support, which when I think about it, is not necessary. Ups and downs are still going to be there, but in my past relationship (western) there was always a bit of drama around them. Im learning there is a more steady way to go about things.

[desi]

'Drama' you got that right. It was difficult getting used to not having the drama all the time. The HUGE emotions that I saw happen all around me in the west.

(I'm not saying they don't happen in relationships here...)

But life is so quite, calm and restful now. I like. Especially as it leaves room for laughter. Or just grins. Both are good.

We also threw out the 'well, if you are together then truth is king' theory. Truth is not king. And no, not all men want to know everything. Sometimes it's the furthest thing from their minds. So now there are large parts of my life I've left out of my present relationship. Do you know how freeing that is?

So, do Thai men want to know everything about a women's past? (former boyfriends, husbands, lovers or lack, mistakes, etc). Or is the past left in the past?

[eek]

So now there are large parts of my life I've left out of my present relationship. Do you know how freeing that is?

Me too, large parts left out. In past relationships with western men it was always normal to me to discuss our day, discuss our thoughts, discuss our future plans in detail, even talk about our past too. At first I took not being asked about my day as him not being interested in my life. Asking no personal questions I also took as being a lack of interest. Questions like this was how I used to judge how interested a man was in me, and how much he valued me. Now im trying to understand things more from his point of view; that we are together, that we should just be happy, and thats that. ..and yes, although I am having to make adjustments and it has felt strange at times, I agree it is actually freeing. It has also been very helpful to read that some things i have been experiencing are shared by others.

So, do Thai men want to know everything about a women's past? (former boyfriends, husbands, lovers or lack, mistakes, etc). Or is the past left in the past?

Well, i dont know about all Thai men, because this is my first (and hopefully only) experience of dating one. But he didnt want to know about my past relationships in detail. He knows there was one main relationship in my life that I was hurt over, and i know there was one main relationship in his life too. We also shared how long we had been single since our last relationships. Apart from that no major discussions. To be honest im glad, i dont really wish to know too much about his past, nor wish to go into too much detail about mine, but i feel all has been above board. No hidden wives or children etc, as I already told me about that part. I also get the feeling that if i asked a personal question it would be answered, but I dont feel the need to go into too much detail. Nice to feel that we are both starting fresh.

I cannot know how well i will adjust to him, or he to me, or if we will 'make it', just know that it is worth making the effort to try.

[sbk]

No man really wants to know about a woman's past, IMO. As long as that past is reasonably normal most people don't want to hear about past lovers.

[bina]

yep, i agree; total 'transparency' is not always conducive to a good relationship...

i'd say, most men in general dont wont to know how many lovers a woman has had, cause regardless if he is a free thinking super liberal, the male ego and jeolousy wake up and when the bad times roll, u suddenly become a promiscuous woman etc etc.. (see the post of farang men and thai wives with 'backgrounds')...

so, anon knows that i was a mia noi, and knows and has to see daily my ex husband (on same kibbutz), he knows that i had a boyfriend once upon a time in the states when i was in uni. what he may find out on a need to know basis is the shorter term (few, but there were two or three) relationships between these three main relationships. nothing to be ashamed of but not very important to list either. men have this ego problem about women sleeping with many men, even if they say they dont. they deep down seem to still have a problem iwth it. double that for a traditional thai man, well,....

i know that he was engaged (or he thought he was) until he got a dear john (dear somchai letter) letter when he came to israel... others? never heard about them. dont want to know either. never thought i was the jeolous type, but it turns out that this time, i am. not possessive but jeoulous. slightly.

i find all that lack of emoting and discussing it stuff also very freeing... or maybe its age?!! the last time anon had a 'criza' as we call it here (a crisis reaction, tempertantrum) , i had said : fine, then get out of the car... and when i slowed at a curve, he did. he had to walk a few kilometers thru a mountain (well a hill with rocks and trees and cactuses) to get home; and i prevented myself from trying to phone every two minutes worried that he was being attacked by terrorists- areal scenario here- ; when he finally walked in, i started to laugh, and so did he, cause the walking had reduced his anger, and i had had time to cool off also... we sa down to eat and just continued on with our lives, without discussing the incident really. and frankly, i dont remember why i had a fit and he got angry so it obviously was something stupid and not worth bothering about.

side post:

eek, i hadnt realized that u were back in a relationship again.... is this the nice thai man in your apartment building or am i mixing u with someone else? ... (nosy nosy but i'm trying to catch up on the latest, ummm , news... sort of like when i spend time on the kibbutz catching up to the latest , local, pregnancies, divorces, dates etc... )

totally off topic post, i know....

bina

[mssabai]

I always believe that men are the same all over the world, and so do women;

Not this woman. In my experience, men are not the same the world over. We are indeed all individuals, but we are individuals from a cultural framework laden with values and customs, and even a cursory look at varying approaches to casual friendship between men and women will tell you what a mine field courtship within the so-called "sameness" really is. We share the same biology, but that's where generic similarities end.

I don't know Kat, yes I agree with you but I have also seen that men in general share some traits that seem to cross cultural boundaries.

Husband hearing, for one. (all you ladies do know what I mean by this ) Also, the general inability to see messes (or smell them!), the inability to find things ("honey, where is the... ", is a refrain that most women are familiar with) etc etc. None of these are, of course, really emotional issues but again, another thing that seems to be generally shared is an inability to emote as much as women do. Or to put as much as importance on it as women tend to do.

So, yes, of course there are cultural behaviors that make a Thai man unique, and then there are individual traits that make the person unique but I've got to say, from what I've seen and from what I have heard from the myriad of women who have stayed at our place, women from many different cultures and nationalities, some things just seem to be "guy things"

I agree with sbk. Similarities between people do not end at country borders. Some people are more typical of their cultural conditioning, some rely on more instinctive emotions. Thai culture advocates a cool and calm approach to emotional issues, but the reality is that many Thais do not practice this. I have seen many hysterical arguments between couples - far more than in the UK (usually younger couples it must be said).

Recently I was very upset about something and was crying (not that typical of me actually). A very good Thai friend repeated the mantras "mai pen lai" and "mai kit mak" until I said "how can I stop thinking about it - what would you do?" . She looked bashful and said "of course the same as you". It made me realise that although Thais aim to have jai yen, most don't feel it when they are in the midst of emotional turmoil, they feel exactly the same as anyone else. Some feel it is more important to maintain the status quo that their culture advocates and therefore they keep quiet, others just cannot stop the emotion from coming out.

I am quite lucky with my boyfriend. Although you wouldn't think it to look at him, he has a very emotional side. He will cry when very upset (though just in a manly reddening of the eyes way, not a wailing banshee type way!). He is also good at judging my moods, and as I tend to only use an emotional reaction when I am VERY angry/upset, he always takes notice and tries to help if I am visibly upset by being tactile or asking me what is wrong.

One problem we do have though is his refusal to admit that arguing is not always a negative part of a relationship. It upsets him to fight and he would rather walk away. This is frustrating, but I have realised if I let him do it, then I can talk to him about it at another time when we are both less heated. I am not sure though if this is a Thai thing or a man thing or a him thing.

[Mad Cat Lady]

Husband hearing, for one. (all you ladies do know what I mean by this ) Also, the general inability to see messes (or smell them!), the inability to find things ("honey, where is the... ", is a refrain that most women are familiar with) etc etc. None of these are, of course, really emotional issues but again, another thing that seems to be generally shared is an inability to emote as much as women do. Or to put as much as importance on it as women tend to do.

Aaaarrrgggghhhh! What is it with men's eyesight/memories??? Sorry to go off topic for a moment but am I expected to follow my husband around all day to mentally record where he left everything? If he can't remember where he left it how am I supposed to?

Okay, so back on topic... When I first started dating my Thai guy he found my outpouring of emotion mystifying and hadn't a clue what to do. If it was his fault, he'd pick a fight back at me so he had an excuse to go for a shot or two of whiskey with his mates and come back when he thought the coast was clear. He soon realised that it just made me even more angry and/or upset. But at least the shots of whiskey in his blood softened the blow!

Nowadays he'll keep out of the way for a while until he's figured out how serious it is and what he's expected to do. If he's at fault, he'll apologise and ask for forgiveness. If I forgive him, he'll promise faithfully to be 'a better husband' and within few days repeat the same mistake!!!

If someone else has upset me, he'll listen and try to help but it's usually a bit out of his emotional range. I often get the maypenrays and 'mia khit maak gurnbpay.' But at least he tries.

Sometimes he'll do something very silly like dancing in a crazy way to make me laugh. Or he'll grab one of our cats and bring them to me for comfort!

We've been together for four and a half years now and are constantly trying to figure each other out. It's partly a man/woman incompatibility thing and partly a Thai/farang cultural difference thing.

MCL

[sbk]

husband hearing and man vision

Anyway, thank god I have never gotten the "think too much" crap out of my husband. The one thing that shocked me when we first got married, he was grumpy and took it out on me. I didn't get angry just said "I don't know why you are angry with me, I haven't done anything wrong". He thought about it, and said, "Yes, you are right. I am sorry"

Nearly fell out of my chair But, it taught me something important. Its okay to be grumpy but its not okay to think that its alright to take it out on your partner. Either one of us. He calls me on it when I do it, and vice versa. And it makes me (and him) stop and think about our behavior.

[mssabai]

i find all that lack of emoting and discussing it stuff also very freeing... or maybe its age?!! the last time anon had a 'criza' as we call it here (a crisis reaction, tempertantrum) , i had said : fine, then get out of the car... and when i slowed at a curve, he did. he had to walk a few kilometers thru a mountain (well a hill with rocks and trees and cactuses) to get home; and i prevented myself from trying to phone every two minutes worried that he was being attacked by terrorists- areal scenario here- ; when he finally walked in, i started to laugh, and so did he, cause the walking had reduced his anger, and i had had time to cool off also... we sa down to eat and just continued on with our lives, without discussing the incident really. and frankly, i dont remember why i had a fit and he got angry so it obviously was something stupid and not worth bothering about.

side post:

eek, i hadnt realized that u were back in a relationship again.... is this the nice thai man in your apartment building or am i mixing u with someone else? ... (nosy nosy but i'm trying to catch up on the latest, ummm , news... sort of like when i spend time on the kibbutz catching up to the latest , local, pregnancies, divorces, dates etc... )

totally off topic post, i know....

bina

God how true is it that time is such a great help in cooling a hot head. Wish I could be chucked out of the (theoretical) car when I get riled sometimes. Usually take it out on my bolster though. Poor bolster.

And yeah Eek, who is the guy? Did apartment guy win you over in the end??

[eek]

Ah well, yes apartment guy did win me over in the end, but the other day, after 4/5 months of the silliest things and no matter how much I tried to make things good, it looks like its gone pear-shaped. So after tentatively allowing someone back in my life, I am once again single, and will be nursing a broken heart for a while again. Really thought this relationship was going to be a keeper. *sigh*

[eek]

Embarrassingly, I have to say scrap what I wrote before. As of yesterday, it would seem that things are back on, and today a wonderful day at that. I dont think ive ever had such a rollercoaster relationship, but then again, im not very experienced in dating as Ive only really dated a couple of men in my life up till now. I really thought that due to various things that had happened over time, plus some things he said to me (pretty negative and clear) a few nights ago equaled him expressing that he considered the relationship over. I guess I have a lot to learn.

Ive decided to just basically stop thinking!!!

[Boo]

Eek, never, ever disregard the voice in your head. If this man is playing games (mental ones ) with you then go very slow & tread very carefully.

(This is said with the best intentions )

[eek]

Tnx Boo.

[sbk]

Gotta say i agree with boo, he could be playing head games, he could just be confused. Either way, go very slowly and trust your instincts.

Assuming your instincts are good that is

[bina]

sounds like a 'dick hed' problem: loosing blood in one direction his brain goes out of whack, then the blood goes back and he unconfuses again...

eek, men are just a bundle of confusion... he's also probably trying to work stuff out since past relationship he had also... he might be 'the one' but even if it doesnt work out and u break your heart its good to get back into relationships again... have a good time with the man, and if it goes wrong, u pick up and continue on knowing that it can be done (finding a guy and having a relationship again) and next time might be better...

do like the men here always say, 'put into it what u can afford to lose' (in this case emotions and mental stuff, not money)...

bina

[mssabai]

and no matter how much I tried to make things good

Eek, remember that it takes two to tango - don't take all the responsibility of making the relationship work yourself. If you do then he will recognise this and know that he can blame you in the future and that you will accept the blame. My ex used to do this and I just felt guilty the entire time, especially when things broke down.

I think there are three parts to a relationship - you, the other person and the relationship/spark/click...this helped me see that when a relationship broke down I didn't have to attribute blame to myself or the other person... sometimes things just head that way.

[eek]

Sensible advice. Thanks girls.

Gotta say i agree with boo, he could be playing head games, he could just be confused. Either way, go very slowly and trust your instincts.

Assuming your instincts are good that is

[sbk]

My instincts are awful, eek, not putting anything on you. Hence the question. I tend to take people at face value, until proven otherwise. Fortunately for me, I tend to learn quickly

You know that old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[zaza]

eek; I have to support all the sensible warning advises of the lovely caring gals here ,

I still suffer from a previous relationship with a (non-Thai) man who was an expert in playing mind-games and pc-games as well till he couldn't tell which one is the virtual world he is messing with ;he got me in a game;me myself as an outcome became confused of which is true and what is not. I believed in him in a very stupid way enough to cancel or halt all my instincts and also the caring-warning words from my family and friends. Honestly speaking; I saw a lot of writings on the walls; but since I was freshly out of a seven years marriage that ended here for very sad typical reasons, also I was caught in a serious difficult-complicated surroundings and circumstances ,that at the same I was out of work ; I felt completely lost and desperate; then he was there acting as a true gentleman; I looked up to him as he is the "saver" or "my Jesus"; he with all his perfect lines that he cut smartly to suit my needs and criteria; I got blinded with love till I can see no one else.

since you had stated this line"" you wanted to work things out" : you got me writing these words for you; since you knew only a couple of men and you are also out of a previous heart break; you would be caught in the impact of few motives to "work things out on your own behalf for a two persons-relation" :

you either would be eager to prove that you still have the ability to love

or deep in your emotions you feel the guilt or sorrow of the first break-up ; or even just the plain human-ego pushing to score a success in this (made-up) love-affair.

Don't you ever take alone the burden of keeping a sick-losing relation alive. You will lose your heart and soul ; these are the things that real women offer when they are in for a real serious love affair.

Edited August 2, 2008 by zaza