Enough With The Grammar Lessons

[mr_hippo]

The OP states that "I mean this is not even an English speaking country." He is right but the main language on this forum is English! I have heard many excuses for poor English:-

"I do not have the time to spell check and proof read." I do not have the time to try and put your post into readable English so if you did have something interesting to say, it remains unread!

"You know what I mean?" Do I?

"It's only the internet so it does not matter!" Oh, doesn't it? Remember that you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. If you want to give me and others the impression that you are semi-literate then go ahead but your posts will remain unread.

Many non-native speakers read and post on this forum and improve their English by doing so but when native speakers write 'should of' instead of 'should have' some non-native speakers may get confused as to the right form.

I can only speak of standards in England and, unfortunately, the standards of teaching have slipped dramatically since my schooldays. If English teachers do not know English, how can they teach it? We have been through the "Don't correct grammar and spelling as it inhibits free thought"! At the last parents' evening that I attended at my youngest daughter's school; I was talking to her science teacher and her English teacher and head of department, at the next table, leaned over and said "Lend me the borrow of your pencil"

[dingdongrb]

English???? Wow I skipped those classes to smoke weed behind the baseball backstop. But hey, ask me about Krichhoff’s voltage law or anything regarding quadratic equations.

[Crossy]

But hey, ask me about Krichhoff’s voltage law or anything regarding quadratic equations.

Never really got the hang of quadratics, but Kirchoff's laws are still alive in the brain

Back on-topic, I'm pretty tolerant, particulary when the poster is using a second language.

To, too and two irks, as does their, there and they're but I really try not to correct, I make enough mistakes myself.

I'm currently working with Indians (from India not Native Americans). They have their own way of mangling the English language which they insist on using in their technical documents. I've given up fixing it unless the result is sufficiently incomprehensible that it would lead to a safety issue, just too hard

[Steve2UK]

Back in Shakespeare's time, many English words were spelt in anything up to about half a dozen different ways - each arguably as correct as the others; it took Johnson's dictionary to start to "fix" the language (that's "fix" as in settle, standardise - rather than repair). To a lesser extent, the same was true of grammar, syntax etc. All languages evolve and one of the delights of English is that it is blessed with so many developing variants capable of expressing things very precisely - even elegantly. That said, at any one time, there is a generally recognised "base" or rule set - and knowing how to apply it definitely promotes good communication.

Maybe like mr_hippo, I was taught that "a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with"....... but, nowadays, it just looks awkward and clumsy to say "no matter from where you come" as opposed to the much more familiar (i.e. accepted/acceptable) "no matter where you come from". Come to that, when the first version was the accepted one, you'd more likely have said "whence" rather than "from where" - but who says "whence" now? "Fowler's Modern English Usage" was first published in 1926 - and is now available in a "re-revised 3rd Edition"; it's offered as "the standard work on the correct but natural use of English" - note the important word "natural" in that description of a book that has been revised several times to keep pace with changes.

All that said, writing even simple English without following the basic common rules just gets in the way of saying what you want to say in a form that others are likely to understand. So, having had a bit of fun at the expense of the overly indignant OP early on in this thread, I'm still with Beacher on what he says - when the text and meaning are so unclear because a poster evidently couldn't be bothered to express him/herself clearly. It's the written equivalent of lazy mumbling or alcohol-induced burbling......... and just as boring. IMO, objecting to that is very different from nit-picking on arcane points of grammar that are probably evolving as we speak - literally.

Simple question - do most people use the "preview post" function on here before hitting "add reply"? I wonder.............

[t.s]

LOL

BTW, the only country in the world to speak English unilaterally (without a discernible accent difference) is Australia

Another edit.

This is why my college prefers Australians....the accent is about the same no matter from where they come.

<deleted> is speaking English unilaterally?

i belive it involve talking to oneself and expecting no answers

I wouldn't ask, but you seem to have many posts in this thread in which you try and give the impression of some in-depth knowledge of English.....

To the OP. People nitpick on technical points because they lack in understanding of the bigger picture. It is prolly why they seldom see the bigger pic.

[Tod Daniels]

You posts are pretentious

Pity. 9 out of 10.

I saw that AFTER the edit post function was disabled; due to the length of time from my post until I wanted to edit

Still I'll take 9 out of 10;

"10-Q wely mut"

(edited; because I could)

Edited July 28, 2008 by tod-daniels

[t.s]

The insightful reply by "elkangorito" about Aussies speaking English unilaterally (without a discernible accent difference) seems to be an oxymoronic statement at best, and an asinine one at the worst. I have never heard anything close to resembling english (<-purposely left not capitalized in the entire post) uttered from the mouth of a person with Australian origin or upbringing. Most of the time I can't understand a single word they say due to their overpowering and strangely accented command or lack thereof in the language known as english.

Now that the O/P has done his bloviating and given us his dissertation about the less than proper english grammar and syntax used in the posts on this forum, a single questions remains in my mind. Do you feel better about yourself; superior in your intellectual understanding and grasp of the intricacies in proper usage of the english language or do you still feel the need to put down other peoples' command of a language which may or may not be their native tongue.

You posts are pretentious, and you seem to write only to demean other people. The number of posts you've made on this subject alone suggest to me, you're definitely wading in the shallow end of the proverbial gene pool. I would suggest a worthwhile hobby like underwater basket weaving or perhaps the ever popular hobby of self flagellation to relieve your pent up angst.

Just as an aside; (because inquiring minds may want to know for future reference) and after all this is the THAI Visa Forum. How good is your thai? Progress past two-word "tourist thai" yet or still rely on your "thai-in tow" to order food for you?

i am sad to say that this is not even a decent attempt at being verbose. the punctuation is atrocious.

"uttered from the mouth" indeed.

[mr_hippo]

To the OP. People nitpick on technical points because they lack in understanding of the bigger picture. It is prolly why they seldom see the bigger pic.

PROLLY? PROLLY? If you mean 'probably', why don't you type the correct word? Can't you spell the word or can't you be bothered to use two more keystrokes?

[JSixpack]

If the thread about good coffee that the OP had read was in the Chiang Mai forum, I may have been one of the grammar correcting culprits. In that case, I'd like to apologize but point out that the hailstorm of grammar-related post was actually a bit of joking between friends.

/ Priceless

Dear oh dear! My corrections/suggestions in blue.

Is this a joke?

Let's start again;

If the thread is about good coffee & the OP, who had read this [the post] was in the Chiang Mai forum, I may have been one of the grammar correcting culprits.

Did I make this sentence understandable or not? Is this what you meant?

In that case, I'd like to apologize but and also point out that the hailstorm of grammar-related posts was were actually a bit of joking between friends.

No, as PeaceBlondie says, Priceless wrote well enough. And Priceless was right to complain that you've made the first sentence, at least, unintelligible.

What you are trying to say through your corrections of the first sentence is this (my corrections of your corrections in <>):

"If the thread is about good coffee <, ending subordinate clause; by omitting the comma, you imply the thread was about both the coffee and the OP>& <and> the OP, who had <correct to simple past> read this [the post] <no, the thread, not just 'the' post; 'it' will do><, non-restrictive clause, because there is only one OP, not several> was <'is', because still is> in the Chiang Mai forum <no, elkangorito, the thread, not the poster, is in the forum--as Priceless said originally>, I may have been one of the grammar<->correcting culprits."

That is, "If the thread is about good coffee, and the OP, who read it, was in the Chiang Mai forum, I may have been one of the grammar-correcting culprits.

But, as I noted, that isn't the correct meaning and is in fact nonsensical. We've got the OP in the forum and we don't know where the thread is.

The second sentence was OK, too, except that 'post' should be 'posts,' as you say. But that error could have been a typo. You then mess up the subject-verb agreement, so readers have to correct you by restoring the original number: "the hailstorm of grammar-related posts was were was" because 'hailstorm' (singular) is the subject of 'was'.

A little learning is a dangerous thing, eh? But polishing our English grammar skills is always to the good.

Please consider this post as coming from one of the "worst offenders" to one of the least (in order of your very scientific, unbiased "preference," of course).

Edited July 28, 2008 by JSixpack

[tomahawk]

Now that I have read what I wrote I realize people are right that I really overdid it. I was I guess trying to be funny which is to be honest one of the major aims of many of the people who write on this forum, but apparently I am not very funny which is perhaps why I never had a career as a comedian. So anyway I am very sorree. I did it again here, apparently now I cannot help myself.

[dingdongrb]

I’ve always thought that those who in school could write per the textbooks were the ones that couldn’t change the sparkplugs in their cars, repair their own TV, build a garage, or re-roof their own home. But by golly they sure could quote Shakespeare and diagram a sentence properly.

[JSixpack]

I’ve always thought that those who in school could write per the textbooks were the ones that couldn’t change the sparkplugs in their cars, repair their own TV, build a garage, or re-roof their own home. But by golly they sure could quote Shakespeare and diagram a sentence properly.

Then you'll want to begin the long journey towards enlightenment here within our black-and-white thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Black-White-t199972.html

ThaiVisa provides.

[dingdongrb]

I've always thought that those who in school could write per the textbooks were the ones that couldn't change the sparkplugs in their cars, repair their own TV, build a garage, or re-roof their own home. But by golly they sure could quote Shakespeare and diagram a sentence properly.

Then you'll want to begin the long journey towards enlightenment here within our black-and-white thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Black-White-t199972.html

ThaiVisa provides.

JSixpack, I guess I have missed your point as I have read that post before.

But, let me ask can you answer either of these:

1) How many sparkplugs does a V-8 have?

2) "To be or not to __." (It's a 'fill in the blank' question)

[PeaceBlondie]

It is a good idea to use the review function (which is "More Options" if you use Fast Reply). It is best to use upper case, unless you prefer capital letters (that was a joke). Readers understand standard punctuation. Very long sentences confuse, run on, break the rules, etc.

Taking a break - a paragraph break - helps the reader to stop and take a breath, or a thought.

Of course, it helps to be sober. Drunks would help by admitting their inebriation in the first sentence.

One of my favorites: "a soft answer turns away wrath." Thank you.

Now, to check my post....

P.S.: my last several thousand posts have been made with a bad hand. But I want to be understood, so I retype and retype, edit and re-edit.

[farang prince]

If the thread about good coffee that the OP had read was in the Chiang Mai forum, I may have been one of the grammar correcting culprits. In that case, I'd like to apologize but point out that the hailstorm of grammar-related post was actually a bit of joking between friends.

However, I think that many of the native English speakers on the forum don't realize the problems that non-native speakers sometimes have deciphering some posts, due to their bad grammar. For a native speaker it maybe obvious what the poster means when s/he e.g. uses "they're", "their" and "there" interchangeably, as if they were synonyms, but for somebody struggling with English it may be enough to make them give up

/ Priceless

Dear oh dear! My corrections/suggestions in blue.

Let's start again;

If the thread is about good coffee & the OP, who had read this [the post] was in the Chiang Mai forum, I may have been one of the grammar correcting culprits.

Did I make this sentence understandable or not? Is this what you meant?

In that case, I'd like to apologize but and also point out that the hailstorm of grammar-related posts was were actually a bit of joking between friends.

However, I think that many of the native English speakers on the forum don't realize the problems that non-native speakers sometimes have deciphering some posts, due to their bad grammar. For a native speaker it maybe obvious what the poster means when s/he e.g. uses "they're", "their" and "there" interchangeably, as if they were synonyms, but for somebody struggling with English it may be enough to make them give up.

Apart from the hiccups in your first paragraph, I found your post quite intelligible. Did I understand your first paragraph correctly? I'm not kidding. I had trouble understanding your meaning in the first paragraph & I think that guessing is dangerous. Did I guess correctly?

Really full of yourself, aren't you?

[Chaimai]

Really full of yourself, aren't you?

I think you will that is full of an anagram of "THIS"

[Mossfinn]

I am not entirely sure you understood my point, but hey, wadda I care

Do you understand the conversation that is going in your avatar?

Nope, should I?

[qwertz]

This sort of pedantry could put the less proficient English writer right off putting his thoughts in writing.

I could care less if a word is misspelt, a comma is missing, superfluous apostrophes abound.

Why not just tell everyone to spell it as they like it but just keep it rational?

[MKAsok]

I don't think this is about "errors" as such but more to the intelligibility of a post, which may be affected by individual errors.

I don't think this is about anything much beyond a vulgar and tedious display of your ego.

[G54]

And what, pray, is perfect English ???

Even in England they all speak the language differently, so why should we all try to write as the snobs would have us speak, in Queens English?

Corrr, luv a duck!

[elkangorito]

After spending over an hour preparing to reply to other posts, I received the message, "You have gone over the amount of blocked quotes" or words to that effect. As a result, I shan't reply. What a stupid message.

[bonobo]

I've always thought that those who in school could write per the textbooks were the ones that couldn't change the sparkplugs in their cars, repair their own TV, build a garage, or re-roof their own home. But by golly they sure could quote Shakespeare and diagram a sentence properly.

I have never seen the correlation. Some people are mechanically inclined and understand the proper use of English. Some are inept with their hands and with their minds. And some can do one but not the other.

I always took issue with the "jocks" and "geeks" classification, as if an athlete did not have a brain or someone with a high IQ could not possibly excel at a sport. In fact I would hazard a guess that high intelligence actually helps out in sports or in more mechanically-oriented pursuits. Understanding the bigger picture can only improve performance. Being able to understand the intricacies of a playbook should make a person a better quarterback, and understanding the physics in a car engine should make a person a better mechanic, all else being equal.

To the original topic, I don't think I have ever corrected the English of someone posting in TV. However, I have read posts which were so convoluted and were such a mishmash of words that I simply could not make out the meaning. I just ignored them and moved on to more intelligible posts.

[lardy]

I've always thought that those who in school could write per the textbooks were the ones that couldn't change the sparkplugs in their cars, repair their own TV, build a garage, or re-roof their own home. But by golly they sure could quote Shakespeare and diagram a sentence properly.

I have never seen the correlation. Some people are mechanically inclined and understand the proper use of English. Some are inept with their hands and with their minds. And some can do one but not the other.

I always took issue with the "jocks" and "geeks" classification, as if an athlete did not have a brain or someone with a high IQ could not possibly excel at a sport. In fact I would hazard a guess that high intelligence actually helps out in sports or in more mechanically-oriented pursuits. Understanding the bigger picture can only improve performance. Being able to understand the intricacies of a playbook should make a person a better quarterback, and understanding the physics in a car engine should make a person a better mechanic, all else being equal.

To the original topic, I don't think I have ever corrected the English of someone posting in TV. However, I have read posts which were so convoluted and were such a mishmash of words that I simply could not make out the meaning. I just ignored them and moved on to more intelligible posts.

I like it when opposing posters then start to pick up on each others spelling mistakes......... I'm easily pleased.

[qwertz]

After spending over an hour preparing to reply to other posts, I received the message, "You have gone over the amount of blocked quotes" or words to that effect. As a result, I shan't reply. What a stupid message.

What can that all mean, EK?

Writer's block?

Edited July 31, 2008 by qwertz

[JSixpack]

After spending over an hour preparing to reply to other posts, I received the message, "You have gone over the amount of blocked quotes" or words to that effect. As a result, I shan't reply. What a stupid message.

All for the best. From your previous efforts, it's clear that, pretensions notwithstanding, you don't know enough about the rules of English grammar to be correcting others' posts. By relying on ego and instinct rather than authoritative sources (with which, if they are cited, you'll merely disagree), you also tend to hold uninformed opinions about the English language skills of various nationalities, even coming up with a naive ranking. We really don't need more confusion and time-wasting.

Bless you, ThaiVisa message editor. (Never thought I'd say that!)

[t.s]

After spending over an hour preparing to reply to other posts, I received the message, "You have gone over the amount of blocked quotes" or words to that effect. As a result, I shan't reply. What a stupid message.

how sad you are, i agree with poster above.

i actually agree with many of your usage points regaring misuse of homonyms like there, they're, their etc, then & than, but after reading your corrections of other people writing i can only conclude that you know little of what you speak

Edited August 1, 2008 by t.s

[faranglandoz]

Now someone is actually trying to say Australians somehow speak the best English, or have the same accent everywhere,or some such thing. I suppose this may be true as no matter what part of Australia they come from, no one else can understand a word they are saying.Mate. I see the guy with this theory has a name resembling kangaroo, so that probably explains their opinion. No matter, just put some shrimp on a barbie and digeree doo some vegemee with a wallaby or whatever. Yes one should definitely go to Australia to learn perfect English. I actually think this whole grammar thing is pretty funny. Also,the valium thing was actually a joke but I think too many people took it seriously, perhaps because there may have been a punctuation error or some such thing.I t is not surprising,as I recall from my school days that English teachers I have known were not renowned for their sense of humor and are often what some people might call nerds. Also, as far as this topic having nothing to do with Thailand, this is not the first posting I have read here that has nothing to do with Thailand. But ti does have something to do with this forum.

Anyway i am soree ifn i havt ofented anybody.

I have spent most of my life in Australia, and I think it is fair comment that Australians speak the English language very clearly. Every syllable is clearly spoken, whether the person is a tradesman or professional. I can't say if the sentence construction is better than other English speaking countries, but the spoken word is clearly understood by everybody, throughout the country.

Faranglandoz

[dingdongrb]

After spending over an hour preparing to reply to other posts, I received the message, "You have gone over the amount of blocked quotes" or words to that effect. As a result, I shan't reply. What a stupid message.

how sad you are, i agree with poster above.

i actually agree with many of your usage points regaring misuse of homonyms like there, they're, their etc, then & than, but after reading your corrections of other people writing i can only conclude that you know little of what you speak

dam_n, here I thought a 'homonym' was a bi-sexual dude or a musical instrument. The things you can learn by reading TV...

[PeaceBlondie]

On various parts of ThaiVisa since el kangorito claimed that the Australian dialect was so pure, universally sought after, etc., several posters have given opinions to the contrary. One poster said the inhabitants of Cairns were virtually unintelligible. There is no universally approved version of the English language. The Irishman who now teaches in Thailand, garro, says his students and Thais in general almost unanimously prefer....the...AMERICAN version of English. But I am sure they do not prefer the extreme West Texas English.

[mgjackson69]

I am fairly new at this forum business so maybe this is a common phenomena, but what is the obsession here with the English grammar and spelling lessons? I saw this one topic about where to get good coffee so I clicked it and there was like 2 postings about coffee and the next 87 or so were about people's spelling errors and grammar and such. By the time I was finished reading all this crap, not only did I not know where to get good coffee, but I no longer wanted coffee at all, and by now needed a pint of vodka or maybe some valium. Then just to see if it was maybe coffee drinkers who were all anal retentive, I read some other random topics and it was more of the same. I mean this is n ot even an English speaking country. Is it because there are so many English teachers here that there is this obsession? There is apparently a murder contract out on me now because I failed to leave a space after the period in a sentence.

If I really wish to learn to improve my grammar I will go back to school. I bet there are other people who feel the same way. Does it make people feel superior to correct someone elses grammatical error? Do these people just sit home in front of their computer looking for mistakes so they can say,'Look how smart I am. This other idiot didn't know enough to put a semi-colon in that sentence.Now I have humiliated the idiot and at the same time showed the world my superior intellect.Hooray for me!"

And just to give these people something to live for I will make sure to make as many speling and grammerical errers as posibul from now onn.

Oh...so you like being seen as ignorant and uneducated...